Training & Nutrition - Long hills = limiter HELP!

Alright I just got back from what I can call a nasty night ride. The last 4 months I have been working on crit skills, sprinting, muscular endurance, pace lines etc. I have been reglecting hills. I know that since there are no hills in criteriums I have put less emphesis on them... mistake.

On short hills that take less than 2 minutes to climb I have no problems, just push over them, out of the saddle and go. Tonight we worked on long hills... and I just about died of pain. Here is the situation.

Cat 3 and 4 road and criterium racers, a few normal very fast riders, all people with over 2 years cycling experience. Me 7 months cycling, cat 5, tall and heavy (220 pounds). Most of the people that rode were little size and weight wise and climbers while I am a sprinter. Several times during the ride I could blow by the pace line and pull it. Get me on the long hills and I die...

We started up this 1.2 mile 4 - 6 percent grade, windy and long. I had no idea how long the hill was at the start and I attacked it at the beginning to get a lead, knowing I would be taken in by the pentalon about 1/3 of the way up. About .5 mile I knew I was expending too much energy and I was already above my lactic acid threshold and going anarobic. About .8 miles in my legs gave out and I was dropped. I had to spin about 8 MPH to recover and then continue up, after about 30 seconds rest I felt good and sprinted to the top. Same thing happened 3 times, try to keep up, get dropped.

Talking to a few people they stated that I exert to much energy at the beginning and lose too much in the middle and I need to slow down. The problem is if I slow down I get dropped. Some say that if I conserve energy at the beginning I will be able to catch the group towards the top. Some say that I just need to learn to tollerate more pain and just push through when my body starts to give out (and that I should just deal with the pain and push). Of course I was dealing with pain, and I am getting better at couping during the ride.

I know I need to do hill repeats on long hills to improve... any other sugestions for the long climbs? Thanks as always

Some people really show us that we need to improve :o

Since you have the ability to hammer on the flats don't worry too much about getting dropped on the climb, just bridge the gap once things level out.

I've heard that the trick to longer hills is to increase your power at the lactate threshold level, that way, you can hang without going anerobic, which is the kiss of death. and guess how you raise your lactate threshold power? LT intervals! long intervals, right around your LT are what helps with that. I remember on the "intervals" thread, I remeber looking at folks interval things, and just being like, damn, theres nothing long here!

also, you can lose weight, though I think your already trying to do that...keep doiing that.

Get some EPO :) Its alot safer then all the mercury fillings that you currently have in your teeth and the flouride you accidentily swallow every morning when you brush your teeth lol

Get some EPO Its alot safer then all the mercury fillings that you currently have in your teeth and the flouride you accidentily swallow every morning when you brush your teeth lol Very relevant go some other place with bs like that

2 things
1) More time out on the hills.
2) Knowing your terrain is a good way to save or conserve your energy for the climb. I hate when I do other peoples rides and they know them very well and pace themselves for the terrain ahead. It’s like being lead in a Spinning class where they tell you that you are on a steep hill and they don't tell you for how long or what intensity to ride it. It can make you feel defeated and in all rights you should have been able to succeed. So the short of it find out what’s up ahead and pace yourself, it’s the quickest way to the top.
Velocity

Your friends are right. You do better on hills when you pick a speed that will get you all the way up then you do by getting a big lead then dying.

Short of training and becoming a good climber, IMO your best bet is to move to the front right before the foot of the climb (but don't attack), climb the hill at your best pace and then catch up after you crest the hill (I bet you're a way better descender than those little mountain goats, right?)

Since you have the ability to hammer on the flats don't worry too much about getting dropped on the climb, just bridge the gap once things level out.


That is exactly what I did... after the hill I just recovered for a second and then hammered until I caught the group.

I think that I do need to work on long climbs just like you said. I need to get my LA threshold tested again, I have improved substantially from when I started and that my treshold has moved a little (or my HR has droped, resting is down 5 BPM).

I talked to a few individuals this morning who I rode with and they are all saying the same thing... For someone who has been riding for 8 months I am making significant (great) improvement, faster than they would expect from someone with my riding experience. Most of the guys that I ride with have 5, 10+ years of riding under them. I remember when I could not climb even the smallest hills without being in so much pain that I could not go on and had to stop...



I've heard that the trick to longer hills is to increase your power at the lactate threshold level, that way, you can hang without going anerobic, which is the kiss of death. and guess how you raise your lactate threshold power? LT intervals! long intervals, right around your LT are what helps with that. I remember on the "intervals" thread, I remeber looking at folks interval things, and just being like, damn, theres nothing long here!



1) More time out on the hills.
2) Knowing your terrain is a good way to save or conserve your energy for the climb.

Exactly what I needed... will include in my training.

Thanks as always

This may not apply to you as you are in much better shape than I am but here's my story... I was living in a campground that was about 2-2.5 miles from where I worked and it was an all uphill climb after work. The last 1/3 of a mile or so was VERY steep. At first I could not make it to the top even with a 22 tooth gear up front. At the end of 3 months I could sprint to the top with no problem... not even any pain. Towards the end I could mash the pedals in the big gear up front with no problem. You indicated that you were spinning at 8MPH to recover, so as a comparison I'll offer this, after getting in shape that summer I was able to climb up to the "loop" in glacier NP at around 10MPH. I was about 240# at the time.
I think you just need to practice climbing hills.... I would imagine it uses different muscle groups than the flats. I'd pick one doosy of a hill and use it as your test so to speak to monitor your improvement/
D

Well, at your weight, you'll never be deadly in the climbs. You'll be putting the hurt on us little climber types on the flats. But you certainly can get faster on the hills if you do some specific training and learn ways to climb smart.

On hills that last more than 10 minutes or so, pacing is super important. I did my regular LT climb with a buddy on Wednesday. I parked right at my threshold the whole way up, with an anaerobic effort for the last minute. My buddy let me have a gap and tried to catch me in the first 5 minutes, which he almost did. But he paid dearly for his effort. He couldn't sustain the speed and lost 3 minutes to me on the 4.3-mile climb.

When training to do long climbs, I find two different things useful. One is the traditional threshold training, which makes it easier to tolerate the high effort of climbing. I only do that once or twice a week. The other is simple tempo climbing, up to about 82% of max HR. I do that most days over multiple hills -- sometimes for hours at a time -- and it really seems to help with my endurance.

Another tactical thing about climbing: almost no road has a consistent grade from bottom to top. If you really want to maximize your speed, give it a little extra gas whenever the grade decreases. This lets you quickly accelerate up to the higher speed that the grade permits. You'll be surprised how many people don't do this. I have specific spots on familiar climbs where I always shift up and boost the effort for a few seconds, quickly increasing speed from 9-10 mph to 15 or more. I carry that speed through the flatter section and onto the next steep grade. It's in these spots where I often drop other riders who weren't paying attention to the road variations.

But hey, it sounds like you're doing great in a short amount of time. Congratulations.

Another tactical thing about climbing: almost no road has a consistent grade from bottom to top. If you really want to maximize your speed, give it a little extra gas whenever the grade decreases. This lets you quickly accelerate up to the higher speed that the grade permits. You'll be surprised how many people don't do this. I have specific spots on familiar climbs where I always shift up and boost the effort for a few seconds, quickly increasing speed from 9-10 mph to 15 or more. I carry that speed through the flatter section and onto the next steep grade. It's in these spots where I often drop other riders who weren't paying attention to the road variations.


I noticed that last night on the second climb. I was right at my LA threshold and I came to this slightly flat section and my body recovered to the point where I could up my gear 2 cogs and pick up lots of speed.

Thanks as always

hey jw u all talk about "hills". What would you consider a hill? What grade?