rankadmiral
Will a tandem fit inside an SUV provided of course that the back seats are put down? I have a BMW X5. Thanks!
will a tandem fit inside an SUV?
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TandemGeek
It can be done, but each SUV / tandem combination are a little different. The one's with fold-flat seats and a low or no center console will sometimes take a tandem with only the front wheel removed such that the rear wheel ends up sitting in between the two front seats. On SUV's like Debbie's '95 4 Runner where the rear bench folds forward and creates "retaining wall" between the cargo bed and the front seats, we can remove both wheels and flip the tandem upside down such that the rear triangle / rear derailleur sits just abreast of the headrests. We put foam kayak roof blocks under the stoker's handlebars to stablize the bike and ran cargo straps from the captain's cranks to the floor tie-downs to hold it in place.
Best bet is to take a tape measure to your X-5 and to your tandem to see what will and what won't work. I try to avoid laying tandems flat on one side in any vehicle because: a) it takes up too much cargo room and, b) it's a pain to move them in and out as the cranks hang-up on the floor unless you put them on top of a large piece of cardboard (bike box) and then slide the tandem in and out with the cardboard under it.
Best bet is to take a tape measure to your X-5 and to your tandem to see what will and what won't work. I try to avoid laying tandems flat on one side in any vehicle because: a) it takes up too much cargo room and, b) it's a pain to move them in and out as the cranks hang-up on the floor unless you put them on top of a large piece of cardboard (bike box) and then slide the tandem in and out with the cardboard under it.
BluesDawg
Yesterday I hauled my tandem to the shop inside my PT Cruiser. I removed both wheels from the bike and removed the right side rear seat from the car. I folded the passenger seat forward, but if I had absolutely needed to I probably could have used the passenger front seat. The left side rear seat was still useable. Not something I'd want to do every day, but in a pinch...
SteveE
Tape measures were invented for a reason.
crosswater
Will a tandem fit inside an SUV provided of course that the back seats are put down? I have a BMW X5. Thanks!
An x5 is not a Ford Excursion. In fact, I could probably carry the beamer AND my tandem in the back of my SUV. I agree with Tandemgeek and SteveE. Use a tape measure...unless the x5 left you penniless ;) I guess it's a toss-up between the cost of operating a gas hog and conspicuous consumption. :D
Peace
An x5 is not a Ford Excursion. In fact, I could probably carry the beamer AND my tandem in the back of my SUV. I agree with Tandemgeek and SteveE. Use a tape measure...unless the x5 left you penniless ;) I guess it's a toss-up between the cost of operating a gas hog and conspicuous consumption. :D
Peace
rankadmiral
Thanks for the helpful and not so helpful advice. It fit, but just barely. Guess, I'll be needing that Expedition next time.
galen_52657
An x5 is not a Ford Excursion. In fact, I could probably carry the beamer AND my tandem in the back of my SUV. I agree with Tandemgeek and SteveE. Use a tape measure...unless the x5 left you penniless ;) I guess it's a toss-up between the cost of operating a gas hog and conspicuous consumption. :D
Peace
You could trade in pretence-mobile or the road hog, which ever you own for a nice Honda/Chrysler/Toyota minivan with fold down seating and carry the tandem inside and still have seating for 4. You would also save on gas, insurance and be in a safer vehicle.
Peace
You could trade in pretence-mobile or the road hog, which ever you own for a nice Honda/Chrysler/Toyota minivan with fold down seating and carry the tandem inside and still have seating for 4. You would also save on gas, insurance and be in a safer vehicle.
crosswater
I am glad I found this forum. You make me smile. The Chrysler is the other tandem hauler in our family :p it's Mama's car. When we make the trek to Atlanta to visit our daughter the big beast is used. Local trips to the Natchez Trace etc. are for the smaller, more fuel efficient T&C or our friend's "Mommy Car" Volkswagon something or another.
just me
A Burley Paso Doble will just fit inside a 2004 Honda Accord 4 door!
JTA
JTA
Velodrama
Thanks for the helpful and not so helpful advice. It fit, but just barely. Guess, I'll be needing that Expedition next time.On the other hand, a tandem roof rack would fit on nearly any car and be cheaper than almost any SUV. I have a '93 Taurus and a Yakima rack with a tandem kit. Works fine and doesn't take up any room inside the car.
I am not sure which replies were unhelpful. Since we don't know what kind of tandem or size of tandem you have or if you're willing to consider removing the front wheel (or even the rear wheel, for that matter) there's no way of knowing if it will fit in your particular SUV. I think that suggestions to use a tape measure are very practical advice.
I am not sure which replies were unhelpful. Since we don't know what kind of tandem or size of tandem you have or if you're willing to consider removing the front wheel (or even the rear wheel, for that matter) there's no way of knowing if it will fit in your particular SUV. I think that suggestions to use a tape measure are very practical advice.
rankadmiral
TG,
With all of the grief I'm taking over my car, maybe I should ditch it for less conspicuous transportation. Sorry to hear about the 4runner troubles... any more abuse and I'll sell you my 2004 4.4. Anyway, I needed the to fit the tandem in the car only to take it home from the dealer. I'm planning to get a roof rack or hitch rack.
I already have roof rails on my car. If I get crossbars from Yakima or Thule, are they pretty easy to put on and take off? I don't plan on hauling the bike that often so I'd prefer to take the rack off of the car most of the time. I mean, the darned thing is tall enough as it is. (i know, i know, it's not as tall as an expedition or excursion or hummer or VW bus)
:-)
With all of the grief I'm taking over my car, maybe I should ditch it for less conspicuous transportation. Sorry to hear about the 4runner troubles... any more abuse and I'll sell you my 2004 4.4. Anyway, I needed the to fit the tandem in the car only to take it home from the dealer. I'm planning to get a roof rack or hitch rack.
I already have roof rails on my car. If I get crossbars from Yakima or Thule, are they pretty easy to put on and take off? I don't plan on hauling the bike that often so I'd prefer to take the rack off of the car most of the time. I mean, the darned thing is tall enough as it is. (i know, i know, it's not as tall as an expedition or excursion or hummer or VW bus)
:-)
SteveE
TG,
With all of the grief I'm taking over my car, maybe I should ditch it for less conspicuous transportation. Sorry to hear about the 4runner troubles... any more abuse and I'll sell you my 2004 4.4. Anyway, I needed the to fit the tandem in the car only to take it home from the dealer. I'm planning to get a roof rack or hitch rack.
I already have roof rails on my car. If I get crossbars from Yakima or Thule, are they pretty easy to put on and take off? I don't plan on hauling the bike that often so I'd prefer to take the rack off of the car most of the time. I mean, the darned thing is tall enough as it is. (i know, i know, it's not as tall as an expedition or excursion or hummer or VW bus)
:-)How far away is the dealer? Maybe someone could drive you and your SO to the bike shop and you could ride home on the tandem. Getting the tandem rack on the car will probably be easier than lifting the tandem onto the roof rack. :)
SteveE
With all of the grief I'm taking over my car, maybe I should ditch it for less conspicuous transportation. Sorry to hear about the 4runner troubles... any more abuse and I'll sell you my 2004 4.4. Anyway, I needed the to fit the tandem in the car only to take it home from the dealer. I'm planning to get a roof rack or hitch rack.
I already have roof rails on my car. If I get crossbars from Yakima or Thule, are they pretty easy to put on and take off? I don't plan on hauling the bike that often so I'd prefer to take the rack off of the car most of the time. I mean, the darned thing is tall enough as it is. (i know, i know, it's not as tall as an expedition or excursion or hummer or VW bus)
:-)How far away is the dealer? Maybe someone could drive you and your SO to the bike shop and you could ride home on the tandem. Getting the tandem rack on the car will probably be easier than lifting the tandem onto the roof rack. :)
SteveE
TandemGeek
I already have roof rails on my car. If I get crossbars from Yakima or Thule, are they pretty easy to put on and take off?
The systems that mount to factory rails are pretty straight forward in terms of how they are attached. Even so, for a simple two bar / four base system you're looking at about 10 - 15 minutes for installation and removal, a bit less if you have a helper who knows what they're doing.
You'll find a tool at this web site that walks you through the hardware selection process for either a Yakima or Thule system for your X-5: http://www.orsracksdirect.com/bmw-x5-roof-rack.html
Links to a variety of other Rack systems and sources are here: http://www.TheTandemLink.com/TLLinks.html#anchor810905
I pretty much left the roof racks on my '97 Suburban all the time (Yakima) as it was pretty much the tandem hauler. Often times it was preferrable to put the mud-encased off-road tandem up top instead of inside after a day on damp trails. However, given how long the roof was, I was able to use a three bar / six base system with single bike mounts for hauling tandems that gave it a low enough profile to sneak under the middle garage bay's 7' door. No way that would have worked with even an ATOC mount. Moreover, the newer Z71 Suburban's ride much higher and have a more robust type of rack system (http://www.thetandemlink.com/LGood/rack2.html), both of which preclude the installation of a stock roof rack system. So, not having had enough time to machine any fittings for an alternative crossbar mount, we've just gotten by hauling the bikes in the truck and clean the removable carpet after the muddy bike is taken out of the truck.
This is a link to some photos and descriptions of our roof rack systems:
http://www.thetandemlink.com/articles/cartopping.html
I used a step stool and the rear seat of our trucks as my platfork when hefting the tandems up onto the roof of these vehicles. It was a bit of a balancing act in that being only about 5'8", I'd remove the front wheel of the tandem, then lift the tandem by the seat tubes up over my head (noting that they all weigh less than 50lbs), then would step up on my step-stool with a passenger door open and end up with one foot on the stool and the other on the back seat of the truck. Once I had my footing, it was just a matter of sitting the rear wheel in the wheel tray and then navigating the fork into the fork mount. A quick flip of the rack's fork skewer and the tandem was safe from falling over and then apply the rear wheel strap. Now, I'm not sure I'd recommend this acrobatic stunt unless you're really comfortable dancing around on ladders, surfboards, or skateboards.... a helper would eliminate most of the drama.
Of course, if you want to eliminate all the drama there are a couple receiver mounts that are worth looking into. While the Draftmaster (now owned by ATOC) is often times mentioned, the one system that I would probably look at if I was considering a bumper-guard bike rack would be Badger's horizontal mount.
http://www.badgerrack.com/tandem.htm
Badge also makes a vertical mount along the same lines as the Draftmaster; however, If you only have one or two tandems to carry their horizontal system is pretty slick. However, I'd most likely remove the rear wheel to keep the tandem in the slipstream of the vehicle as well as keeping it out of the elements. It also eliminates concerns regarding low-overhangs, the potential for your or a helper scratching or denting the roof or side of your high profile vehicle whilst loading or unloading bikes.
Lots of options out there; just take your time and do your homework as some of these systems can get really expensive. At last count I think I probably have four complete Yakima tower/cross bar systems and 8 bike mounts that have been accumulated over the past 20 years along with various kayak, ski, gear basket, and wind deflector attachments.
The systems that mount to factory rails are pretty straight forward in terms of how they are attached. Even so, for a simple two bar / four base system you're looking at about 10 - 15 minutes for installation and removal, a bit less if you have a helper who knows what they're doing.
You'll find a tool at this web site that walks you through the hardware selection process for either a Yakima or Thule system for your X-5: http://www.orsracksdirect.com/bmw-x5-roof-rack.html
Links to a variety of other Rack systems and sources are here: http://www.TheTandemLink.com/TLLinks.html#anchor810905
I pretty much left the roof racks on my '97 Suburban all the time (Yakima) as it was pretty much the tandem hauler. Often times it was preferrable to put the mud-encased off-road tandem up top instead of inside after a day on damp trails. However, given how long the roof was, I was able to use a three bar / six base system with single bike mounts for hauling tandems that gave it a low enough profile to sneak under the middle garage bay's 7' door. No way that would have worked with even an ATOC mount. Moreover, the newer Z71 Suburban's ride much higher and have a more robust type of rack system (http://www.thetandemlink.com/LGood/rack2.html), both of which preclude the installation of a stock roof rack system. So, not having had enough time to machine any fittings for an alternative crossbar mount, we've just gotten by hauling the bikes in the truck and clean the removable carpet after the muddy bike is taken out of the truck.
This is a link to some photos and descriptions of our roof rack systems:
http://www.thetandemlink.com/articles/cartopping.html
I used a step stool and the rear seat of our trucks as my platfork when hefting the tandems up onto the roof of these vehicles. It was a bit of a balancing act in that being only about 5'8", I'd remove the front wheel of the tandem, then lift the tandem by the seat tubes up over my head (noting that they all weigh less than 50lbs), then would step up on my step-stool with a passenger door open and end up with one foot on the stool and the other on the back seat of the truck. Once I had my footing, it was just a matter of sitting the rear wheel in the wheel tray and then navigating the fork into the fork mount. A quick flip of the rack's fork skewer and the tandem was safe from falling over and then apply the rear wheel strap. Now, I'm not sure I'd recommend this acrobatic stunt unless you're really comfortable dancing around on ladders, surfboards, or skateboards.... a helper would eliminate most of the drama.
Of course, if you want to eliminate all the drama there are a couple receiver mounts that are worth looking into. While the Draftmaster (now owned by ATOC) is often times mentioned, the one system that I would probably look at if I was considering a bumper-guard bike rack would be Badger's horizontal mount.
http://www.badgerrack.com/tandem.htm
Badge also makes a vertical mount along the same lines as the Draftmaster; however, If you only have one or two tandems to carry their horizontal system is pretty slick. However, I'd most likely remove the rear wheel to keep the tandem in the slipstream of the vehicle as well as keeping it out of the elements. It also eliminates concerns regarding low-overhangs, the potential for your or a helper scratching or denting the roof or side of your high profile vehicle whilst loading or unloading bikes.
Lots of options out there; just take your time and do your homework as some of these systems can get really expensive. At last count I think I probably have four complete Yakima tower/cross bar systems and 8 bike mounts that have been accumulated over the past 20 years along with various kayak, ski, gear basket, and wind deflector attachments.
Guest
If anyone wants to take this to a political level, start a new thread in the Politics and Religion forum about the pros and cons of the environmental impact of SUVs (or whatever).
Thanks.
Koffee B.
Mod
Thanks.
Koffee B.
Mod
SDS
The thing that has tempted me lately, for a lot of reasons, is the Freightliner/Mercedes van. I have seen it set up as a commercial van and as a passenger van, and one of these days I might have to look at one.
galen_52657
Bradley Fighting Vehicle is the only way to go
BluesDawg
The thing that has tempted me lately, for a lot of reasons, is the Freightliner/Mercedes van. I have seen it set up as a commercial van and as a passenger van, and one of these days I might have to look at one.
We used the Dodge Sprinter version of these vans to transport the marshal crews for the Tour de Georgia last year. They are pretty amazing vehicles. And you could definitely haul a bunch of tandems in back of one.
We used the Dodge Sprinter version of these vans to transport the marshal crews for the Tour de Georgia last year. They are pretty amazing vehicles. And you could definitely haul a bunch of tandems in back of one.
TandemGeek
Post Script: The 4Runner died, 192,000 miles over 10 years.
As an homage to our total committed to two-seaters, Debbie decided that she'd like to commute to work via two-seater both for the pure pleasure of it and, yes, better fuel economy. So, while the Honda S2000 replacement cannot haul a tandem, it does get upwards of 25 mpg and makes Debbie smile just as she does on all the other two-seaters in the stable, motorized and pedal-powered.
So, while the Suburban/tandem hauler remains in the fleet, it also remains in the garage most of the time as Debbie and I now each have Hondas for our respective 12 mi commutes: both are two-seaters, hers just has four wheels and a top whereas mine has just two wheels and the sky above.
She claims its a mid-life crisis thing but I ain't buyin' it.
As an homage to our total committed to two-seaters, Debbie decided that she'd like to commute to work via two-seater both for the pure pleasure of it and, yes, better fuel economy. So, while the Honda S2000 replacement cannot haul a tandem, it does get upwards of 25 mpg and makes Debbie smile just as she does on all the other two-seaters in the stable, motorized and pedal-powered.
So, while the Suburban/tandem hauler remains in the fleet, it also remains in the garage most of the time as Debbie and I now each have Hondas for our respective 12 mi commutes: both are two-seaters, hers just has four wheels and a top whereas mine has just two wheels and the sky above.
She claims its a mid-life crisis thing but I ain't buyin' it.
FXjohn
Post Script: The 4Runner died, 192,000 miles over 10 years.
As an homage to our total committed to two-seaters, Debbie decided that she'd like to commute to work via two-seater both for the pure pleasure of it and, yes, better fuel economy. So, while the Honda S2000 replacement cannot haul a tandem, it does get upwards of 25 mpg and makes Debbie smile just as she does on all the other two-seaters in the stable, motorized and pedal-powered.
So, while the Suburban/tandem hauler remains in the fleet, it also remains in the garage most of the time as Debbie and I now each have Hondas for our respective 12 mi commutes: both are two-seaters, hers just has four wheels and a top whereas mine has just two wheels and the sky above.
She claims its a mid-life crisis thing but I ain't buyin' it.
25mpg in a two seater...very impressive.
As an homage to our total committed to two-seaters, Debbie decided that she'd like to commute to work via two-seater both for the pure pleasure of it and, yes, better fuel economy. So, while the Honda S2000 replacement cannot haul a tandem, it does get upwards of 25 mpg and makes Debbie smile just as she does on all the other two-seaters in the stable, motorized and pedal-powered.
So, while the Suburban/tandem hauler remains in the fleet, it also remains in the garage most of the time as Debbie and I now each have Hondas for our respective 12 mi commutes: both are two-seaters, hers just has four wheels and a top whereas mine has just two wheels and the sky above.
She claims its a mid-life crisis thing but I ain't buyin' it.
25mpg in a two seater...very impressive.
TandemGeek
25mpg in a two seater...very impressive.
It's nearly twice the mpg compared to the 4Runner, but it won't haul a tandem... Of course, neither will my motorcycle. Perhaps one day before too long we'll be able to downsize the Suburban/RV as well. Although, with a couple of grandkids nearby and the youngest getting married in July... there are still people and stuff to be hauled around on the weekends and it remains one of the better tandem-hauling vehicles: 3 tandems up x 6 people inside with gear.
It's nearly twice the mpg compared to the 4Runner, but it won't haul a tandem... Of course, neither will my motorcycle. Perhaps one day before too long we'll be able to downsize the Suburban/RV as well. Although, with a couple of grandkids nearby and the youngest getting married in July... there are still people and stuff to be hauled around on the weekends and it remains one of the better tandem-hauling vehicles: 3 tandems up x 6 people inside with gear.
FXjohn
It's nearly twice the mpg compared to the 4Runner, but it won't haul a tandem... Of course, neither will my motorcycle. Perhaps one day before too long we'll be able to downsize the Suburban/RV as well. Although, with a couple of grandkids nearby and the youngest getting married in July... there are still people and stuff to be hauled around on the weekends and it remains one of the better tandem-hauling vehicles.
A Ford Excursion with a diesel will get around 20-22..pulling or not.
A Ford Excursion with a diesel will get around 20-22..pulling or not.
TandemGeek
A Ford Excursion with a diesel will get around 20-22..pulling or not.
I'm sorry, what kind of a tandem to you ride and what do you use to transport it?
I'm sorry, what kind of a tandem to you ride and what do you use to transport it?
FXjohn
I'm sorry, what kind of a tandem to you ride and what do you use to transport it?
This, and a mini truck
Do you have to ride a tandem to comment on SUV's or mileage?
This, and a mini truck
Do you have to ride a tandem to comment on SUV's or mileage?
TandemGeek
This, and a mini truck... Do you have to ride a tandem to comment on SUV's or mileage?
Let me think about that one for a moment... The subject of the thread is "will a tandem fit inside an SUV" and it was posted to the Tandem Cycling forum? Hmmmm.
FOO, Safety & Advocacy (much to my chagrin), as well as the Politics and Religion forums are great places to vent on environmentalism issues such as fuel economy, displeasure with SUVs, their owners, or other motor vehicle issues.
My bad for stirring the ashes with a postscript on the outcome of an incidental topic (the demise of a 4Runner that had been used to haul tandems) that was tied into this thread and including a reference to mpg. As always seems to happen in these forums, the mere mention of an SUV brings about snide remarks that may or may have no bearing on the actual topic and, apparently, so do high performance vehicles that don't always top the charts on fuel economy.
So, back to your question, yes. It would certainly help if you owned or rode tandems as part of your cycling regime or had some type of experience with regard to the issues associated with transporting tandem bicycles. Unlike 1/2 bikes (or personal bikes, if you prefer), tandems present unique logistical issues that make portage by vehicle as well as public transit, shuttle buses, trains, ships, and aircraft something that requires forethought and planning. However, if you've never been faced with that particular dilemma, then you may not have an appreciation for the implications and, in turn, an appreciation for why larger vehicles -- including SUVs -- are both a solution and a problem for many tandem teams. After all, given that tandems range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, with a great many "enthusiast level models" falling in the $3,000 - $7,000 range, the importance of being able to keep the bike out of the somewhat hostile environment that exists on the top of a vehicle moving at 65+ mph in a variety of weather conditions and seasons, as well as having a secure place to store it while attending events or in route to and from events during incidental stop-overs can become a driver for vehicle purchasing decisions. So, while some teams can get by hanging a tandem with the wheels removed from their two door coupe, others may find that a roof-top mount is a better "fit" for their needs (bearing in mind that many fuel efficient vehicles tend to become very fuel inefficient when forced to deal with the added wind drag of a roof-mounted bike or bikes), or that a mini-van, SAV, SUV, or full-sized truck balances all of their various needs.
Just my .02 as a former 4WD mini-truck and sports sedan owner who had to rethink vehicles as our involvement in tandeming became a larger part of our recreational pursuits.
Let me think about that one for a moment... The subject of the thread is "will a tandem fit inside an SUV" and it was posted to the Tandem Cycling forum? Hmmmm.
FOO, Safety & Advocacy (much to my chagrin), as well as the Politics and Religion forums are great places to vent on environmentalism issues such as fuel economy, displeasure with SUVs, their owners, or other motor vehicle issues.
My bad for stirring the ashes with a postscript on the outcome of an incidental topic (the demise of a 4Runner that had been used to haul tandems) that was tied into this thread and including a reference to mpg. As always seems to happen in these forums, the mere mention of an SUV brings about snide remarks that may or may have no bearing on the actual topic and, apparently, so do high performance vehicles that don't always top the charts on fuel economy.
So, back to your question, yes. It would certainly help if you owned or rode tandems as part of your cycling regime or had some type of experience with regard to the issues associated with transporting tandem bicycles. Unlike 1/2 bikes (or personal bikes, if you prefer), tandems present unique logistical issues that make portage by vehicle as well as public transit, shuttle buses, trains, ships, and aircraft something that requires forethought and planning. However, if you've never been faced with that particular dilemma, then you may not have an appreciation for the implications and, in turn, an appreciation for why larger vehicles -- including SUVs -- are both a solution and a problem for many tandem teams. After all, given that tandems range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, with a great many "enthusiast level models" falling in the $3,000 - $7,000 range, the importance of being able to keep the bike out of the somewhat hostile environment that exists on the top of a vehicle moving at 65+ mph in a variety of weather conditions and seasons, as well as having a secure place to store it while attending events or in route to and from events during incidental stop-overs can become a driver for vehicle purchasing decisions. So, while some teams can get by hanging a tandem with the wheels removed from their two door coupe, others may find that a roof-top mount is a better "fit" for their needs (bearing in mind that many fuel efficient vehicles tend to become very fuel inefficient when forced to deal with the added wind drag of a roof-mounted bike or bikes), or that a mini-van, SAV, SUV, or full-sized truck balances all of their various needs.
Just my .02 as a former 4WD mini-truck and sports sedan owner who had to rethink vehicles as our involvement in tandeming became a larger part of our recreational pursuits.
FXjohn
Why were comments like these accepted then?
You could trade in pretence-mobile or the road hog, which ever you own for a nice Honda/Chrysler/Toyota minivan with fold down seating and carry the tandem inside and still have seating for 4. You would also save on gas, insurance and be in a safer vehicle.
No one needed any anti SUV comments...just whether or not the bike will fit.
You could trade in pretence-mobile or the road hog, which ever you own for a nice Honda/Chrysler/Toyota minivan with fold down seating and carry the tandem inside and still have seating for 4. You would also save on gas, insurance and be in a safer vehicle.
No one needed any anti SUV comments...just whether or not the bike will fit.
TandemGeek
Why were comments like these accepted then?
Actually, if you read all the way down to entry #14 from Koffee you'll find that the discussion eventually crossed the line, to wit,
"If anyone wants to take this to a political level, start a new thread in the Politics and Religion forum about the pros and cons of the environmental impact of SUVs (or whatever).
Thanks.
Koffee B.
Mod"
There were a few posts in this thread that were either moved, deleted, and/or self-edited and deleted as well so as to keep it in context and to stop the slide towards off-thread/topic discussions.
Actually, if you read all the way down to entry #14 from Koffee you'll find that the discussion eventually crossed the line, to wit,
"If anyone wants to take this to a political level, start a new thread in the Politics and Religion forum about the pros and cons of the environmental impact of SUVs (or whatever).
Thanks.
Koffee B.
Mod"
There were a few posts in this thread that were either moved, deleted, and/or self-edited and deleted as well so as to keep it in context and to stop the slide towards off-thread/topic discussions.
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