General Cycling Discussion - Stop @ stops?

STOP

OK I know we wall stop at red lights while out and about. But what I want to know is: Do you all stop (complete stop) at STOP signs?

depends on situation, i quite regularly by-pass traffic lights by mounting the pavement and scampering past, then back onto the road, that way i dont have to wait for the lights to change.

if it's a 4-way kind of intersection, then yeah.

if it's a stop-sign, i slow so that i can safely see and then go through --- usually pretty slowly --- i base my decision on *safety* and definitely don't make sure to come to a complete stop

back in college (UT austin) campus cops used to give tickets if you didn't put your foot down which is dumb b/c i can trackstand a long time and does a motorist open the door and put his foot on the ground at a stop sign? anyway, i would ride down stairs jumpt out-sprint them or whatever when the campus bike police tried to catch me

if there are cars/pedestrians present then i wait to make eye contact. if i can make eye contact and the motorist is waving me before i come to that complete stop then i'm off.

Voted yes cause I do stop.

But I also make it a point to go through with a car at intersections with 4-way stop signs. I use the car as a "blocker". Meaning I know that other motor vehicles will not attempt to cross the intersection if a car is going through as they might with just a bike there. I always completely stop at intersections with only a 2-way stop sign. If there is not car there for me to go through at a 4-way then I stop and go throught when it is safe.

In my small subdivision there are a few stop signs
that I kind of roll thru, but there is VERY little
traffic. At all other intersections I stop at em.
I don't want to a) become a statistic
and b) cause more drivers to hate cyclists.

Marty

Originally posted by b_rider
Voted yes cause I do stop.

But I also make it a point to go through with a car at intersections with 4-way stop signs. I use the car as a "blocker."

I do the same, because, IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE, it is safer than being literally legal, particularly if one is dealing with a multilane 4-way stop. In general, however, I believe following the "Same Rules" is the price we must pay to maintain our "Same Rights" on the "Same Roads."

As much as I hate to lose my momentum, I stop at all stop signs and signals. I wait for lights to change, even if there is no one coming. Why?

Because predictability is the key to safety. If motorists know exactly what I'm going to do, instead of trying to read my mind as I make up my own rules, I am safer.

Also, I get less respect from motorists if they see me break a rule. I don't appreciate motorists who disregard my safety by ignoring the rules, so I give them the same regard, even if I have to wait an extra 30 seconds. (Gives me a chance to get a drink, anyway.)

I voted NO because I dont stop for the Stop sign, but I do stop for the crossing traffic.

In Montreal and most N. American towns,there are way too many Stop signs. I was on vacation in the UK last year and found the almost total absence of stop signs, made driving a lot easier.

If a car approaches a 4 way stop at the same time as I do, I wave it on as I slow down. Usually they then stop and wave me through. I then go through without stopping, and thank them as I go. If they go on my wave, they are out of my way before I come to a complete stop, so I go through. The important thing is polite communication.

People complain of bikes going through stop signs. It is just a matter of perception. A car slowing from 50 to 5 at a stop sign appears to be stopping, while a bike slowing from 15 to 5 looks like it is breezing right through. I think cars are as bad as bikes in stopping at stop signs.

I think putting your foot down is the equivilent of a car changing gears to park or neutral.

Originally posted by b_rider
...I also make it a point to go through with a car at intersections with 4-way stop signs. I use the car as a "blocker".
I don't find this necessary. In fact, I would consider it dangerous to ride alongside another vehicle in an intersection, intentionally.

A "blocker" may not know they are being used as such. Cooperation with motorists is crucial at all times, and a motorist who is unaware of my presence cannot cooperate with me.

I prefer to act precisely as I do in my car. First come, first serve. Yield if some goofball takes my turn.

Again, if I follow the same rules, motorists can read my intentions. The biggest problem I have a 4-way stops is motorists who want me to go ahead of my turn. I wave them through.

Like most people, my ethics here are situational. I would not usually stop when I was on the crossbar of a "T" intersection with no possible traffic on my right, for example. I would almost always stop at a 4-way when there were cars, including parked cars.

The important thing is to never assume anything and never trust a driver. Having just seen my 17-year old through the process of getting his driver's license, I'm acutely aware that there are lots of inexperienced, tentative, scared, and easily distracted drivers on the road. For one of them, you may be the very first cyclist they ever have to deal with as traffic.

RichC

I'll blow a whole lot of stop signs -- particularly ones I know, where the traffic is light and where I can see a fair way up and down the cross streets. I'll blow lights if there's no traffic. I'll blow lights if it's a T-intersection and there's NO CHANCE of traffic cutting across or in front of me... assuming there are no police around. I respect busy intersections and I'll slow, often with a foot out of the pedal, even at intersections where I have right of way, but where there is traffic. Some observations:

1. Motorists are stupid. They don't respect stop signs -- only about 5% seem to come to a full stop at stop signs in Montreal, and they invariably roll halfway over the stop line. My strategy is to be aware of all traffic and be able to respond.

2. The two times I have been hit by cars, I was (1) crossing an intersection with right of way [no stop sign] by a car that blew his stop sign, (2) rear-ended by a car at an intersection after having stopped at a stop sign.

3. I can stop far more quickly and manoeuvre much more nimbly than any car. I've dodged squirrels, chipmunks and groundhogs on my rides, I'm certain I could stop or avoid any pedestrian that comes in my path at an intersection.

The traffic laws are made for cars, not bikes. And the cars don't even observe them.

Originally posted by b_rider
...I also make it a point to go through with a car at intersections with 4-way stop signs. I use the car as a "blocker".

I don't find this necessary. In fact, I would consider it dangerous to ride alongside another vehicle in an intersection, intentionally.


i too don't usually find this necessary at stop signs. but i do often use a 'car block' for left turns on busy roads - there is a bus i often follow for a left turn on a busy road on my home commute. if there's space for the bus then i can fit too (or the car will hit the bus first and probably not push the bus into me) of course you have to be careful b/c no one can see you behind a bus...

Originally posted by velocipedio
The traffic laws are made for cars, not bikes. And the cars don't even observe them.
Traffic laws apply both to bikes and cars in the U.S. They are in place to protect all road users.

The last road user I want to imitate is a motorist who ignores traffic rules.

Originally posted by velocipedio
I'll blow a whole lot of stop signs -- particularly ones I know, where the traffic is light and where I can see a fair way up and down the cross streets. I'll blow lights if there's no traffic. I'll blow lights if it's a T-intersection and there's NO CHANCE of traffic cutting across or in front of me... assuming there are no police around. I respect busy intersections and I'll slow, often with a foot out of the pedal, even at intersections where I have right of way, but where there is traffic. Some observations:

1. Motorists are stupid. They don't respect stop signs -- only about 5% seem to come to a full stop at stop signs in Montreal, and they invariably roll halfway over the stop line. My strategy is to be aware of all traffic and be able to respond.


The traffic laws are made for cars, not bikes. And the cars don't even observe them.

Aren't you supposed to be following the rules of the road just as any other vehicle? (Actually, aren't we all supposed to (follow the rules)?) I hope you don't drive a car the same way you ride a bike ...

I voted "depends"
I prepare to stop at all intersections even ones without signs or
signals. and if I'm riding with a group of cars I follow the rules
so they know what I'm doing. I will look for right turn signals and wait behind them to make there turn. if I dont see a signal I will go to the front and look at the driver making sure he/she knows I'm there. then will lead the ligth so that I have a good pedal going by the time they start. ( dont want to be putting foot in pedals when cars are passing me). I try to do what is expected.
and follow the rules. to many blind spots on the road and to many drivers that dont know how to drive in mixed traffic(sp) ...
just my .02 worth

Traffic laws are different for bicycles in some areas. I know that in Moscow, ID (home of the University of ID) bicycles are required to yield at stoplights and signs (a fantastic law) and may ride on the sidewalk but must yield to pedestrians. In Walla Walla, WA, however, you must obey the same traffic laws as cars. Of course, it depends on how strictly the cops choose to enforce said laws. You may also wear headphones while riding in Moscow, but not Walla Walla. Of course, I continue to follow the Moscow rules ... yield to cars rather than lights and signs. I also use cars, trucks and semis to block for me.

I always stop at a red light, it´s a shame so many cyclists do not. They just give all cyclists a bad name!!! Here in Sweden like in US, bikes and cars aply to the same rules. It´s not allowed to ride the pavement along the road that´s there for pedastrians, to avoid red lights. Not here in Sweden. Not hard to see why we cyclist are "hated" by taxi drivers and others who has driving as profession. We must better our selves, now.
Anders
Sweden

It is ridiculous and archaic for bicycles to stop at a vacant intersection. If one interferes with the flow of traffic by running a red light or stop sign then you are endangering the lives of others and deserve a ticket. However, if you do not have a law that allows bicycles to yield at a redlight or stop sign then do something to change it. Most communities have citizens panels that review such things or work to improve pedestrian and bicycle access.

I stop at stop signs if there are other vehicles approaching or stopped at the intersection. Even if I clearly stopped first, I'll make eye contact and wait for a cue from the driver. Without eye contact, I assume that they do not see me. Sometimes they see me before I completely stop and wave me on as they're stopping. By then, I've slowed down, and I roll on through.

If there is no traffic, I slow to a near stop, but don't put my foot on the ground and carefully scan for vehicles or idiots. Provided that there are no hazards, I continue on my way.

I voted "depends". In my immediate neighborhood, there are intersections with not too much traffic, except that we are right near a school. If it's at time of day where the kids are out, I go SLOWLY and carefully. Also, if you pass a school bus when its lights are flashing, it's a huge ticket, even for bikes. Busy intersections, I stop. I find that if you stop, motorists like it and often will just wave you through and let you go. It depends on many things- traffic flow, time of day and intersection.

Originally posted by LittleBigMan

Traffic laws apply both to bikes and cars in the U.S. They are in place to protect all road users.


That's true. And if we run stop signs, we ought to be prepared to own up to whatever consequences, legal or otherwise, that may result.

That said, one must recognize that laws have to be interpreted. The entire system of jurisprudence exists, and the legal profession is so lucrative, because interpretation is necessary.

If you're driving on an interstate and there's an exit ramp on the left, and a sign that says "keep right except to pass," what do you do? Obviously, you interpret the law.

I agree with the principle that cyclists should understand that they are traffic and that traffic law applies to them. But I believe that there are many situations where safety and practicality mandate interpreting those laws somewhat differently when riding than when driving.

RichC

I ride mainly rural roads, so more than half the time there's nobody but me at the intersection.

If someone else is there, I will stop and put my foot down.

If I'm pretty much alone, I will do a 'rolling stop,' just applying the brakes and peddling again as soon as I'm almost halted.

I never just breeze through, unless I'm really tired and really in the middle of nowhere, and can see that there's not a car in sight (or anywhere for it to appear from for at least a mile in each direction.)

It depends on the situation of course, but my main argument for not stopping is that most traffic laws are very car specific. There is a point to come to a full stop when you’re driving a car. There isn’t when you’re biking. They’re two very different kind of vehicles.

You can’t always use this argument, but I think the stop sign is an obvious situation where you can.

I generally follow traffic rules---just because I don't want to get squashed----heck-most of my riding is on the trails anymore.

BUT-"technically"---traffic laws don't apply to cyclists----otherwise-wouldn't I need a bicycle operators license? proof of insurance?? go through an examination process in regard with my ability to safely operate a bicycle???

Not that I've lost my license or anything---but wouldn't a drunk driver who lost their license---who's cycling instead of hoofing it---be banned from cycling if traffic laws applied to cyclists???


As to who has the "Most" right of way on a road:
1.Pedestrian
2.Cyclist--Skateboarder etc
3.Motor-vehicle

In the eyes of the law at least----although it doesn't usually work that way in reality.

As I pointed out earlier .. in the United States communities, states and counties have quite a bit of freedom when it comes to laws for bicycles and pedestrians. The Feds can throgh their weight around by withholding funding to accomplish certain things (speed limits and drinking age), but I think many riders would be surprised how leniant the laws are concerning bicycles. Not ALL but some.

For me, it depends on the situation.

Stop signs with great view: coast up to the sign while covering brakes. As soon as I know it is clear, I go.

Stop signs without good view: I slow to a pace that I can stop within inches of applying the brake.

Stop lights: I ALWAYS OBEY. I will watch the light and when the crossing light is about to turn red and is clear of traffic, I will get a rolling start before my light turns green. Even if the light has no traffic, I sit there until the light changes. I sometimes have to hit the crosswalk button to get the light to change, but I always obey the light.

I stop at stop signs. I try to ride as safely as I can, but I follow the law. That way, if all my safe riding fails, at least I will have the law on my side. I don't want to get hit by some crazy guy going down the road at 100 mph and then find out that I still have to pay my medical bills myself because I ran a stop sign.

andy

I stop at all red lights, regardless if traffic is coming or not i'll wait till its green, i run stop signs all the time if no traffic is coming my way... and i'm scared to admit i often do the same with stop signs when i'm in my car... and just for those who are curious its $150 fine if your run a stop sign :p in Houston anyways.

Originally posted by OmahaRider
I generally follow traffic rules---just because I don't want to get squashed----heck-most of my riding is on the trails anymore.

BUT-"technically"---traffic laws don't apply to cyclists----otherwise-wouldn't I need a bicycle operators license? proof of insurance?? go through an examination process in regard with my ability to safely operate a bicycle???

This one will get you in trouble.

From Nebraska Statutes Search (http://statutes.unicam.state.ne.us/default.asp), on this (http://statutes.unicam.state.ne.us/Corpus/statutes/chap60/R6006314_60-6~314.html) page:



60-6,314
Nebraska Rules of the Road; applicability to persons operating
bicycles.


(1) Any person who operates a bicycle upon a highway shall have all of the rights and shall be subject to all
of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle under the
Nebraska Rules of the Road except for special bicycle regulations
in the rules, except for those provisions of the rules which by
their nature can have no application, and except as provided in
section 60-6,142.

(2) Regulations applicable to bicycles shall apply
whenever a bicycle is operated upon any highway or upon any path set aside by the Department of Roads or a local authority for the exclusive use of bicycles


As far as I can understand, you are legally obligated to follow the same rules as cars unless otherwise stated.

I think a lot of cyclists need to start by taking a good look at the laws that apply to bikes in the areas where they live. At least that way you will know if something is against the law before you do it.

andy

I don't think actual stop signs are as common over here as in the US. I voted depends, but that means generally stopping. |Red lights I always stop for, stop signs, I always slow down for, but won't always come to a complete standstill if on a quiet road with a full view of both sides for a good distance.

Richard

Originally posted by LittleBigMan

I don't find this necessary. In fact, I would consider it dangerous to ride alongside another vehicle in an intersection, intentionally.

A "blocker" may not know they are being used as such. Cooperation with motorists is crucial at all times, and a motorist who is unaware of my presence cannot cooperate with me.

I prefer to act precisely as I do in my car. First come, first serve. Yield if some goofball takes my turn.

Again, if I follow the same rules, motorists can read my intentions. The biggest problem I have a 4-way stops is motorists who want me to go ahead of my turn. I wave them through.

True this can be dangerous. But I make the driver very aware of of the fact that I am there. And I do not use the car as a blocker if it is turning right. If it is going straight or turning left I do. When I use a car as a blocker it is always a car that comes up from behind me, so the driver already knows I am there and I allow the driver to pull up along my left side. To where the driver and I are even at the intersection. But again if the driver is turning right I do not attempt to use him or her as a blocker. Never had a problem with this so far. The intersections I do this at are in residental areas where the speed is 25 mph.

Now at a intersection with lights if it is green I of course proceed through but in the middle of the lane so a car can not zoom up on my right side to make a right turn and hit me in the process. I think this is called the right hook. And if the light is red I stop in the middle of the lane so a car can not get beside me, again to make the right hook turn cause they are in a hurry and do not want 5 seconds added to their commute time. This is part of my defensive riding.

I've never had a problem with cars turning left, even if it is from a cross street onto the street I am riding and going straight through on. Up until I developed my defensive riding style I always had problems with drivers making the right hook turns.

if the traffic light is is located in an intersection that is not busy, I make a right turn then ride maybe 10 feet then look back and make a U-Turn, then make right turn again, I am back at the same direction, at the Downtown Core, I don't do that kind of riding, but in the suburd, it depends, ......

Originally posted by orguasch
if the traffic light is is located in an intersection that is not busy, I make a right turn then ride maybe 10 feet then look back and make a U-Turn, then make right turn again, I am back at the same direction, at the Downtown Core, I don't do that kind of riding, but in the suburd, it depends, ......

I saw a guy do one of these on Bike to Work Day last week. He rode up (wrong way) a one-way street, turned right at the light up another one-way street, made a U-turn, then turned right again and kept going. At least the street that he finally ended up on was two-way. Kind of made me laugh.

andy

Yes, I was wondering if someone would mentin this ... i sometimes do the same thing if the far lane is busy. On a one way street though? sheesh

I was on vacation in the UK last year and found the almost total absence of stop signs, made driving a lot easier.


That's interesting because where I live, there are virtually no stop signs either. At most of our intersections 1 road is designated the main and has right of way while the other is the minor and has to give way. eg the North/South road is the main road and can drive straight through while the East/West road has to give way.

I have never seen a 4 way stop intersection, sounds like it could create some confusion with drivers when all 4 cars roll up at once. A bit like our round-about system, which are 4 way give ways, and VERY dangerous for cyclists.

There is only 1 stop sign on my commute and I always slow to do a trackstand for .5 sec then continue.

Also, bikes here are regarded as vehicles, and the same penalties apply as for driving.

CHEERS.

Mark

from my experience the US seems to have more stop signs than anywhere else... for whatever reason (over-zealous traffic engineers or incompetent drivers) almost every intersection in the US must be fully regulated with a traffic light, 2-way or 4-way stop sign... the yield sign is usually only seen for lanes merging and rarely at intersections and a completely unmarked intersection (except for in the country) is almost never seen.

i think most of Europe has rules for unsigned intersections (in germany the 'right-before-left') and then usually has signs marking who has right of way at most intersections (yeild sign for the smaller road) as well as far more round-a-bouts... traffic lights are also much less common in Europe.

on many smaller roads in the US, every other intersection has a stop sign ever few hundred feet or less (inner-city Portland Oregon for example)

the first few times i drove in Europe i was surprised when i came to unregulated intersections b/c you just don't see them in the US...

I hope you don't drive a car the same way you ride a bike ...stor mand

as to driving a car the same way (slowing, maybe stopping and then riding through only if safe): that's totally different in a car b/c if i were wrong about nobody coming and screw up i could kill someone with that huge vehicle - i stop at all stop signs when i drive and rarely run red lights (i think i have maybe 15 times in 16 years, always at like 3am on Monday morning when i haven't seen a car in 15 minutes...)

in other words, not obeying or bending the laws in a car is threatening the lives of OTHERS and bending the laws on a bike is for the most part only endangering yourself - you pay the 'costs' with your injuries or your life if you go through a red light and a car hits you - the likelihood of a cyclist killing a car-driver is remote.

unregulated intersections??? thats madness, how do you know who has the right of way?

I have to say that I do not stop at the vast majority of stop signs simply because of the energy wasted in doing. So, if nobody is around I go strait through. If other cars are around, I slow down and take the automotive order of priority.

Just today, I was going strait along a road (for those who know, its the one parallel to the Lachine Canal), I was about 100 feet in front of a stop sign with hands on the brakes, a driver of a school bus (female) making a left turn, went forward a little bit and actually stopped and waved me through the intersection!

It seems to me that it you at least appear to obey the rules, most cars (at least in my area) will actually wave you though. -- ignore this remark if you are in or near the downtown core.

:beer: S

Originally posted by Spire
I have to say that I do not stop at the vast majority of stop signs simply because of the energy wasted in doing. So, if nobody is around I go strait through. If other cars are around, I slow down and take the automotive order of priority.

I guess I still kind of worry about this kind of reasoning. I mostly worry about it because I don't see much of a reason that cars couldn't apply the same standard.

andy

Originally posted by aturley


I guess I still kind of worry about this kind of reasoning. I mostly worry about it because I don't see much of a reason that cars couldn't apply the same standard.

andy

I do to a point apply the same standard in a car. But remember that the converse would have to be true as well. If the car saw a cyclist he would make the stop and follow the order of priority as well!

:beer:

Usually do stop, because that one time you dont is when a car clips your ass, and you're still riding, except its a wheelchair.

Originally posted by aturley


I guess I still kind of worry about this kind of reasoning. I mostly worry about it because I don't see much of a reason that cars couldn't apply the same standard.

andy

Well, just for my 2 cents worth, I feel that:
1. With no blind spots, I feel I have much more reliable field of vision than a driver in the same situation, and:

2. Having already slowed down considerably, I probably have a much better stopping distance than a car would under the circumstances.

For the record, I would NEVER run a stop sign in a car!

(And the unadmitted #3--I could get a hefty fine and points off my license for a roll-thru in a car, but I believe the standard fine for bike violations is $25 in my area...and much more likely, just a yelling-at by a cop, if one ever happened to see me.)

Originally posted by AutoAudio
unregulated intersections??? thats madness, how do you know who has the right of way?
Whenever crossing or entering another lane, when there is no sign or signal of any kind, you should ALWAYS yield to all traffic in that lane.

Sounds a bit dicey without regulation, though...

There is an Unconsious regulation with 4 way intersections with no stop. Whichever car was there first, goes first...They are usually intersection where little traffic is found, so rare occasions make for 4 cars there at once.

unregulated intersections??? thats madness, how do you know who has the right of way? Auto Audio

there's always some rule... in Germany it's 'rechts vor links' or 'right before left' which is like the US 4-way stop rule where if 2 cars stop at the same time the one on the right has the right-of-way. most major roads have an indicator sign (usually a yellow and black diamond) that designates that they have the right of way or an inverse yield-sign and then smaller roads usually have a yield sign...

i don't know if this is 'international' on the Continent here or what? i guess our Sweedish and English and Dutch members can answer that one...

but it works pretty well, except about 2 months ago on a road i ride almost every day home from my work commute, i have one of the right-of-way signs and the cross-road has a yield, so i continued on at 30kmh or so as a car approached from the right. then he kept coming at like 35kmh or so... i slowed and he locked up the brakes and i stopped about 2 feet before him. the guy starts yelling at me in German and screaming 'rechts vor links' - i'm consufed b/c my German is OK but not great and i don't know all the road laws, but i thought i understood this one. i pointed to my sign and tried to explain that 'rechts-vor-links' didn't apply, but i wasn't completely sure i was right, so i didn't assert myself like i would have otherwise. Then his wife (he had 2 kids in the back too) rools down the window and starts calling me an idoit cyclist and how i should know how to ride, etc. etc. etc. anyway, i rode off and questioned myself the whole day. went back the next day and examined all the signs and THEY had a huge YEILD sign in addition to my sign indicating I had right-of-way, plus i asked a few locals --- so THEY were the idiots who didn't know how to pay attention to signs... (annoys me b/c they could have killed me and THEN criticized MY actions) ---- anyway, the only problem was that these people THOUGH it was unregulated and thus right-before-left when in fact there was a huge YIELD sign there --- so no problem with the law, just their inability to pay attention...

There is an Unconsious regulation with 4 way intersections with no stop. Whichever car was there first, goes first...They are usually intersection where little traffic is found, so rare occasions make for 4 cars there at once. mikew305

as far as i know that is not quite true... OK, i guess i learned in Texas, so maybe it's different in your state.

but as far as i know, the rule at a 4-way is whoever arrives first goes first, but with a simultaneous stop the car on the right has right of way - i guess if you have 4 cars all stop at the same time, someone has to wave the others on... i think it's actually a law (but this may vary by state)

Originally posted by Inkwolf

For the record, I would NEVER run a stop sign in a car!


So you come to a complete stop at every single stop sign in your car ??? That is rare. In Quebec, almost nobody stops for stop signs because there are so many of them.

In all my time cycling I have never seen another bicycle do a complete stop when other cars are not around.

:beer: s