Classic & Vintage - List of quality steel frames for use with 700c wheels?

I don't know alot about bike companies -- especially ones that aren't around anymore. I was wondering if someone can provide a list of older (80s-ish) road bikes (touring or race) with higher quality steel frames that use 700c wheels. I'm looking to build something up with bar-end shifters and suntour components I have lying around, but I would like to put some real money into a nice new wheelset. I've seen a lot of brand names mentioned around here that I've never heard of -- and nearly all brands have their lemons, so I'm just curious to see a list of bikes the resident experts lend their seal of approval to.

TNTC

Lab rats (no offense Stacey) will understand.

Atala, Assenmacher, Azuki, Basso, Benotto, Bianchi, Bill Boston, CCM, Cinelli, Colnago, Co-Motion, Dilecta, Eisentraut, Fuji, Frejus, Guerciotti, Gitane, Heron, Hercules, Jeunette, LeJeune, Klein, Kestrel, Merlin, Mercier, Motobecane, Nishiki, Nobilette, Otis Guy, Pinarello, Paramount, Peugeot, Raleigh, Ritchey, Rossin, Steelman, Serotta,Trek, Urago, Viner, Yeti, Zeus and Zinn . . . among many others

Atala, Assenmacher, Azuki, Basso, Benotto, Bianchi, Bill Boston, CCM, Cinelli, Colnago, Co-Motion, Dilecta, Eisentraut, Fuji, Frejus, Guerciotti, Gitane, Heron, Hercules, Jeunette, LeJeune, Klein, Kestrel, Merlin, Mercier, Motobecane, Nishiki, Nobilette, Otis Guy, Pinarello, Paramount, Peugeot, Raleigh, Ritchey, Rossin, Steelman, Serotta,Trek, Urago, Viner, Yeti, Zeus and Zinn . . . among many othersThat's a pretty lame list.Some could certainly be built around 27" wheels, some never made a steel bike, and some made botom of the barrel or lower. :rolleyes:

Cheap but good list:

Miyata, Fuji, Panasonic (including Schwinn 80s upper-end road bikes), Centurion (especially Dave Scott Ironman if you can stomach the often ugly paint), Trek (from the mid 80s), Nishiki (higher end ones, anyway), Maruishi , Univega (be careful, lots of junkers)

All of these go for really cheap but are totally nice bikes. Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone how well they ride and how cheap they are ;)

I was wondering if someone can provide a list of older (80s-ish) road bikes (touring or race) with higher quality steel frames that use 700c wheels.

Lou Deeter is that someone. His bike buyer's guide is a good list!

You might also want to check out:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/ and

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/

Buying by "brand" names can be a bit tricky. Panasonic, Raleigh, and Schwinn built some pro quality bikes in the '80's, as well as entry level bikes. The same is true of most bike suppliers.

When judging the quality of an '80's bike, clues are the steel tubing used, with Reynolds, Columbus, and Tange being some of the "bigger" names, and another clue are the components used, with Campy, Dura-Ace, Shimano 600, and Sun Tour Superbe being major names. Dozens of brands combined those tubes and components during the '80's to make some nice bikes. Today, you could find a Reynolds 531 bike with Shimano 600 components for as little as $75 on E-Bay. No bike made in 2005 for under $1,000 comes close.

Cheap but good list:

Miyata, Fuji, Panasonic (including Schwinn 80s upper-end road bikes), Centurion (especially Dave Scott Ironman if you can stomach the often ugly paint), Trek (from the mid 80s), Nishiki (higher end ones, anyway), Maruishi , Univega (be careful, lots of junkers)

All of these go for really cheap but are totally nice bikes. Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone how well they ride and how cheap they are ;)

I like that list. They would even be appropriate with Sun Tour componentry.

Cheap but good list:

Miyata, Fuji, Panasonic (including Schwinn 80s upper-end road bikes), Centurion (especially Dave Scott Ironman if you can stomach the often ugly paint), Trek (from the mid 80s), Nishiki (higher end ones, anyway), Maruishi , Univega (be careful, lots of junkers)

All of these go for really cheap but are totally nice bikes. Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone how well they ride and how cheap they are ;)


Thanks for the brand list - but what models in particular should I be looking for? I'm sure most of them made some real lemons at some point -- most companies do.

Thanks for the brand list - but what models in particular should I be looking for? I'm sure most of them made some real lemons at some point -- most companies do.

If you find one that is either "double butted", "triple butted", "quad butted" or "fully butted" you are getting a a good frame (provided it hasn't been damaged at some point). A couple other general rules (which aren't without exception) are to look for a separate derailleur hanger on the rear dropout, and to also look for adjustment screws on the rear dropout.

I have a couple of suggestions for you on specific models that are relatively common, generally not very expensive, and IMO, quite good bikes (ride quality, though not necessarily standards of finishing) from the '70's. The Raleigh Super Course is a favorite of mine from my days growing up. The '77 and '78 models had SunTour Cyclone derailleurs and the skinny, Weinmann a-124 concave clincher rims. Any Peugeot with a '10' in the name designation is a nice riding frame. If you can get your hands on Fuji "Absolute", "The Finest" or "The Newest", they're worth consideration. They are all excellent frames that came with good components. For whatever reason, demand for vintage Fuji's isn't all that strong, so when they come along, they can be had for a reasonable price. I have to stop here because I'd only be passing on stuff I've heard, but not experienced first-hand if I went any farther. :o

Good luck in your quest.

Besides the big brands there are scores of smaller builders who made top quality bikes. I can't tell you the brand of my bike, I just don't know, but it looks good, feels good and rides good.
There are indicators to quality:
Frame stickers indicating the grade of steel: beware that some use only one or two tubes of "named brand" so they can apply the sticker.
The shape of the lugs: fancier lugs indicate a better quality bike. Look for curved rather than flat-cut lug ends. Look for a thicker moulded dropout rather than thin stamped steel plate.

Thanks for the brand list - but what models in particular should I be looking for? I'm sure most of them made some real lemons at some point -- most companies do.Walk away from the yellow ones.

The shape of the lugs: fancier lugs indicate a better quality bike. Look for curved rather than flat-cut lug ends. Look for a thicker moulded dropout rather than thin stamped steel plate.I have seen nice and fancy looking lugs on junk.

Oh, prove it. Everyone knows there are no exceptions to generalities, and they're always true -- otherwise people couldn't say them.

Sydney, how's your campaign going to get party-pooping into the Olympics?

Just curious; what bikes or frames does Sydney recommend?
Like e-CHUCKIE says "my favorite bike is the one I'm riding today"... (for me that'll be the Woodrup).

BTW Slacker, a frame that seems to be a good value (but not thrift store cheap) is the Titan frames talked of in another thread. You can do a search for Titan here & you'll find the info. Since it sounds like you may be wanting to build a sport-tourer... Is that correct?

The lug party is one worth pooping on though. :p

I understand the nice lugs argument as it pertains to vintage French, Swiss and many British bicycles. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but generally, if you know what a Nervex lug is, and find a bike that has them, you will have found a frame that's at minimum a decent one.

However, a simple lug is not a sure sign of junque. There are many excellent bicycles made with rather plain looking lugs. As much as I prefer the appearance of the elegant and fancy lugs, consider all the excellent creations made with the "long point" lug, and similarly "plain" lugs. A simple lug on a heavy frame is a sign of a not very good bike. A simple lug on a light frame is simply an element of design philosophy.

I'm sure I'm making this up, but consider the macho attitude of: "I'm a bicycle racer. Why do I want flowers and un-manly adornments on my frame?" :p :p :p :p Look at Italian bicycles. Look at the early Raleigh Professionals. You'll be hard-pressed to find fancy lugwork.

However, a simple lug is not a sure sign of junque. There are many excellent bicycles made with rather plain looking lugs. As much as I prefer the appearance of the elegant and fancy lugs, consider all the excellent creations made with the "long point" lug, and similarly "plain" lugs.

Absolutely true. Especially here in the States during the late '70s- early '80s, plain looking long point lugs were very popular with custom builders. Their quality in finish was obvious though; you know you're looking at a nice hand built frame when you see them. One builder famous for the plain & simple look who's still building is Chris Kvale... His stuff is gorgeous:
http://www.velostuf.com/chris_kvale_cycles.htm

Lugs are plainly styled, yet it's his finish work that's fancy.

I like both the plain and fancy lug styles, but if either is finished sloppily, it's easy to see.

Oh, prove it. Everyone knows there are no exceptions to generalities, and they're always true -- otherwise people couldn't say them.


He's right. I've seen many high-ten frames with elegant lugwork. Some examples would be Jeunet, Peugeot, & Motobecane low end models.

Yeah, I saw a low-end Centurion with seamed tubing that had really nice chrome lugs. Weird. They were really thick, though.

My personal favorites are the Trek 531c frames from the mid '80s. I have two. Simple paint, long wheelbases, light, nice workmanship (thanks to the robotic brazing) cool investment-cast lugs (post '86). The models to look for are the 610 and 700 "tri series". I bought a near-mint one for $125 and a rough looking one for $75 (I paid too much but I liked the first one so much I couldn't resist the second).


Schwinn Voyageur models are the panasonic ones.

Why do I want flowers and un-manly adornments on my frame?" :p :p :p :p Look at Italian bicycles. You'll be hard-pressed to find fancy lugwork.D'oh? And just how many lugged Italian frames have you seen? My Tecnos and Master Light even have 'flowers' in them. The Tomassinis and Masis are no dogs or wallflowers either.

Well, you know how those Italians are; a little light in their Guccis. :D

D'oh? And just how many lugged Italian frames have you seen? My Tecnos and Master Light even have 'flowers' in them. The Tomassinis and Masis are no dogs or wallflowers either.

My apologies. I must have missed seeing the Technos and Master light in the TDF peleton. I sent requests to Mrs. Bianchi, Colnago, DeRosa and Masi asking them to show me their flowered lugs. I expect it could be a while before I hear from them. :rolleyes:

My apologies. I must have missed seeing the Technos and Master light in the TDF peleton. I sent requests to Mrs. Bianchi, Colnago, DeRosa and Masi asking them to show me their flowered lugs. I expect it could be a while before I hear from them. :rolleyes:What's the zip code for that cave you live in? The Master Light a pro ride of choice, even in the Tour, back when steel was king. Certainly you aren't going to see luggd steel in todays tour. :rolleyes:

I saw a calf with six legs once.

I saw a calf with six legs once.Was it being ridden in the Tour?

Yes, and not doing badly, considering.

Some other suggestions might be the Schwinn "Japanamount" frames, Paramounts built by Panasonic. Very nice, generally lack the luster of the earlier US built paramounts. Can be had cheep. Panasonic also built some decent frames, DX's. 1000 was the lowest and 5000 the highest, I think, very nice.

Look for tubing stickers. Ishiwata, Reynolds, Tange (esp the "1" tubing), Columbus, Vitus. Look for double butted steel. Stickers aren't always there, but they often enough are.

Keep in mind there are exceptions to nearly every "rule" we propose here. Good frames are sufficently varied in little construction elements that there are exceptions to everything. I can think of quality frames without lugging, without derailleur hangers, without fancy lugs, whatever. But Lugged, db steel is a good starting point.

The Master Light a pro ride of choice, even in the Tour, back when steel was king.

I concede having made an error. I'm not familiar with mid 1980's and later bicycles. The Colnago Master Light certainly seems to be a high quality machine.

However, we seem to have drifted off a bit. Your Master Light does have rather plain lugs does it not? Calling the club a flower (yes, I know the name for it in Italian roughly translates to that), would be kind of like sending a boquet of dandelions on Mother's Day.

I concede having made an error. I'm not familiar with mid 1980's and later bicycles.

Well, you should be.... And nothing plain about the lugs either.

Well, you should be.... And nothing plain about the lugs either.

Please assist my education. Can you post a picture, or a link?

Please assist my education. Can you post a picture, or a link? Trust me....sydney does not blow smoke.

Trust me....sydney does not blow smoke.

I'm really quite interested. Colnago is known for simple, well finished lugs. I'd like to see what they did with a "fancy" lug.

I'm really quite interested. Colnago is known for simple, well finished lugs. I'd like to see what they did with a "fancy" lug.

These are some of the fancier ones they did; bike's an '85 Arabesque:

That Arabesque is drop dead gorgeous. Not quite
a Hetchins but right up there in terms of nice lugs. . .
wouldn't call that typical for Ernesto but. . .

Marty

A far cry from a French curve and a carved out club. I'd almost be afraid to ride something that fancy.

What about the Trek 330, say 1990. I know this is a low end version, but would it make sense to buy the bike and make some upgrades on components?

I own two superb candidates for your list, my Bianchi and my Peugeot PKN-10. Both are circa 1980, both have mixed tubeset frames with double-butted CrMo or MnMo main triangles, and both are set up for short-reach sidepull brakes and 700C wheels. Because of the mixed tubeset frames, they are not nearly as sought-after or collectible as their top-of-the-line stablemates, but they ride and handle just as well, with perhaps a very slight weight penalty. Both have very plain, nonchromed lugwork, which was the fashion in that era.

Older road bikes, such as my Capo, tend to have much more generous frame clearance (and more ornate lugwork) and work fine with either 27" or 700C rims.

Basso Gap?

Bianchi Celeste?

I purchased a Trek 610 frame for myself and a built-up trek 610 for my wife in 1984. The frame is Reynolds 531 CS forks and stays. They are still going strong with lots of miles on them. A great deal for the rught price.

BTW Slacker, a frame that seems to be a good value (but not thrift store cheap) is the Titan frames talked of in another thread. You can do a search for Titan here & you'll find the info. Since it sounds like you may be wanting to build a sport-tourer... Is that correct?

I agree on those Titans. The people who've bought them seem to be very happy with them.

If were going to order a new frame. it would be one of these:

http://kirkframeworks.com

They are some of the most beautiful frames I've ever seen. Since we share the same name, I'd get a frame with my name all over it. Bonus!

I saw a calf with six legs once.



Does this happen often or just when visiting the thumb area??






Olds

Today, you could find a Reynolds 531 bike with Shimano 600 components for as little as $75 on E-Bay. No bike made in 2005 for under $1,000 comes close.


I just wonder where you people get your price quotes from. Every time I look for anything 'classic', with nice steel tubing and decent components on ebay, prices tend to end up in the $200 range (with or without shipping). Are you of a less-common size perchance? Me, I'm dead in the middle of the bell curve at 54-56cm/22in. frames.

easiest way to tell a decent frame (and yes, there are exceptions):

Look at the rear dropouts. Nicer frames have forged ones, while frames to stay away from usually have cheap stamped steel dropouts.

I would have never noticed my '63 Schwinn Supersport as something worthwhile until I looked at the dropouts. Turns out what I thout was a crappy bike-boom schwinn was actually a hand fillet braised psudo-paramount ;)

Falcon did nice frames, so did Kotter if you happen to be on the continent (europe) otherwise Dawes made so-so frames, Raleigh (look out for strange threads)... but generally, look for Reynolds 531 (or higher) tubing. Then you have a good start atleast.

easiest way to tell a decent frame (and yes, there are exceptions):

Look at the rear dropouts. Nicer frames have forged ones, while frames to stay away from usually have cheap stamped steel dropouts.

I would have never noticed my '63 Schwinn Supersport as something worthwhile until I looked at the dropouts. Turns out what I thout was a crappy bike-boom schwinn was actually a hand fillet braised psudo-paramount ;)




Got any pics of the two? I'm eager to see the difference.

Check the components if they are still on the frame. Shimano on OLDER frames is usually a good sign, as is Suntour. I can usually tell from the way the crank is connected to the chainwheel(4-5 hex bolts), if its like that on an older bike chances are it was pretty good in its day. Always look for lugs on older bikes and of course butted seamless tubing. Pick it up, is it light AND steel? Stay away from aluminum, while lighter it wont last you as long, and its already old and used. Someone forgot to say Bridgestone, shame on you. I agree also with Panasonic(yum), some Fujis, higher end Schwinn, all relatively common second-hand. For really cheap frames hit up flea markets in your area. You may have to be religeous for a couple of weeks about it, but they always have steals. I got an old Fuji frame for $3, still had most of its components on it too. I found an old beater Schwinn with good cranks still on it for $5. Thrift-stored an almost new shimano cassette for $5 on a bent wheel. By the time I was done the most expensive part on the bike was the $10 chain I put on it, and I spent less than $50 to have an awesome bike.

If were going to order a new frame. it would be one of these:

http://kirkframeworks.com

They are some of the most beautiful frames I've ever seen. Since we share the same name, I'd get a frame with my name all over it. Bonus!


WOW!!!!