Classic & Vintage - Looking at a Raleigh super course

I'm looking at a 70's Raleigh super course at a local flea market for $60. Just wanted to make sure it's worth that. (Im not looking for one of those 'what's the value of this bike" answers, since I understand it's all relative.) I guess I'm looking for more information on the bike, more than a value-type thing. The front badge says Raleigh / Nottingham England but I know they were produced elsewhere at this time. It was I believe Renolds 531 tubing, a dark green color with the groovy chrome chainstays and fork ends. I didn't see any mention of being doublebuttedness. It had a simplex deraileur, but I didnt catch which model. I think I'm gonna go back this Friday when he's open again and see if i can get him down to $40 or 45. (He hinted that he'll take $50 for it - but i can't resist the temptation to haggle sometimes. lol) All in all I liked it, but I wanted to find some more info first. One thing that I was wondering about was the wheel rims. They had these little dimples all around the walls - and I wasn't sure if they were aluminum or steel. (He wasn't sure if they were the original wheels or not.)

I found this site via SheldonBrown (http://www.retroraleighs.com/super-course.html) but thought someone might have something to add.

I should have took some pics with my phone, but didn't think about it!

Thanks in advance!

For $45 -$50 you can’t go wrong unless the frame is bent or broken… even then the components might make the investment worthwhile. The dimples on the rims would indicate that they are steel. I'm pretty sure the SCs of the 70s came with alloy wheelsets. My guess is someone harvested or trashed the original wheels and replaced them with steel. Is the crank cottered? The real question is… does it fit you??? If so, I’d snag it now before it gets away.

"The real question is… does it fit you??? If so, I’d snag it now before it gets away."

Agreed. The part about frame condition is true as well. 50$ is fair for an old 531 frame.

I'm looking at a 70's Raleigh super course at a local flea market for $60. Just wanted to make sure it's worth that. (Im not looking for one of those 'what's the value of this bike" answers, since I understand it's all relative.) I guess I'm looking for more information on the bike, more than a value-type thing. The front badge says Raleigh / Nottingham England but I know they were produced elsewhere at this time. It was I believe Renolds 531 tubing, a dark green color with the groovy chrome chainstays and fork ends. I didn't see any mention of being doublebuttedness. It had a simplex deraileur, but I didnt catch which model. I think I'm gonna go back this Friday when he's open again and see if i can get him down to $40 or 45. (He hinted that he'll take $50 for it - but i can't resist the temptation to haggle sometimes. lol) All in all I liked it, but I wanted to find some more info first. One thing that I was wondering about was the wheel rims. They had these little dimples all around the walls - and I wasn't sure if they were aluminum or steel. (He wasn't sure if they were the original wheels or not.)

I found this site via SheldonBrown (http://www.retroraleighs.com/super-course.html) but thought someone might have something to add.

I should have took some pics with my phone, but didn't think about it!

Thanks in advance!

One of my favorites. I bet its a lot like the one here. http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Retro-Raleighs/73-Catalog.pdf The tubing on this model was never double-butted, but even presuming there were differences between the 1973 model here, and the 1977/78 model that I prefer, it is a nice riding bicycle. Are there better? Yes. But for the price, one of the better riders you'll find.

For $45 -$50 you can’t go wrong unless the frame is bent or broken… even then the components might make the investment worthwhile. The dimples on the rims would indicate that they are steel. I'm pretty sure the SCs of the 70s came with alloy wheelsets. My guess is someone harvested or trashed the original wheels and replaced them with steel. Is the crank cottered? The real question is… does it fit you??? If so, I’d snag it now before it gets away.

I didn't notice if the crank was cottered. It fit me perfectly. I'm gonna pick it up I think. I dont get paid till friday (but he wont be open until next saturday!)

If the crank is cottered, it's a cheap replacement. Cottered cranks were never original equipment on the SC.

I had a pair of Mavic Module E rims with dimples back in
the late 70's. I think the idea behind the dimples was that
they provided better braking when wet.
If thats what you have they are alloy rims, I don't recall any
steel dimpled rims

Marty

If the crank is cottered, it's a cheap replacement. Cottered cranks were never original equipment on the SC.

Just follow your own link... http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalo.../73-Catalog.pdf The '73 had cottered cranks.

I do remember a big bolt sticking out the side of the chainwheel. I dont mean out the crank arm like a cotterpin, but out the chainwheel.

Did the pre-73's come with cotters, or was the 73 an anomoly?

Did the pre-73's come with cotters, or was the 73 an anomoly?

Someone can check this... but I think they were cottered until mid-70s.

I had a pair of Mavic Module E rims with dimples back in
the late 70's. I think the idea behind the dimples was that
they provided better braking when wet.
If thats what you have they are alloy rims, I don't recall any
steel dimpled rims

Marty

My recollection is just the opposite. I've seen hundreds of steel Rigida rims from the 70s with dimples. (Not so say dimples don't exist on an alloy version, I just don't remember seeing them.) Aluminum rims provide a better braking surface than chrome-plated steel rims, hence the textured (dimpled) surface.

I don't recall any
steel dimpled rims

Marty

My sister-in-law's Raleigh Sport had dimpled steel rims. It didn't leave Nottingham that way, but all she had to do was leave the bike out in the weather for about 25 years.

:D

Just follow your own link... http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalo.../73-Catalog.pdf The '73 had cottered cranks.


Not real clear to see, but yep - it is cottered. My error. :o

Yet another reason why the 1977/78 version is better. ;)

Yet another reason why the 1977/78 version is better. ;)

I'm partial to the contrasting colors for the head and seat tube... is that 1977/78. I also liked the fact that they came in a 65cm frame.

No. '77/'78 you had your choice of red or gold. No chrome anywhere except on the dropouts. What made them better (IMO of course), are that they weighed a couple pounds less, had bar-cons :) , Sun Tour Cyclone rear derailleur, and the thin Weinmann concave rims (A-124 I believe) with 90 psi tires (minimal rolling resistance). The Zefal pump was good for keeping pursuing dogs at bay too. :D

When I bought it for $9.95 at a local thrift store, my 71 SC had a Stronglight chrome plated, steel, cottered, crankset and Weinmann alloy rims. The paint was in terrible shape but the Nervex lugs hooked me & I eventually ended up spending about $350 for a repaint & an all NOS early Shimano 600 group & hubs with araya alloy rims. Not one of my lightest bikes but it still looks & rides great. Mine was copper colored, the LBS owner's son has a green one like you describe & still rides it. Don

Well, I ended up getting it on Saturday. It's green, with shimano hubs & non name rims (alum. afterall) and I really love it. The wheels both need a good truing - I'll try to do that during the week - I hope I don't screw it up worse than it already is. :/

Vincent

Also, re: the pdf link USAZorro sent - it looks to be older than the '73 pictured, judging from the thin script that "raleigh" is written in, instead of the bolder RALEIGH that is in the photo. Anyone know when they would have switched lettering styles?

I'll have pics up tonight, if I can.

added after:
I also notice that mine has the ... doubled brakes that go up to the flats of the drops. Not sure what you call them. None of them in the catalogs have them. Aftermarket? Option?

Suicide levers.

And that's all I know....

Yay for suicide levers!

I've seen '73 models with both types of lettering. My '72 had script, as did the '73 replacement frame I was given. The bronze green shade had slightly changed between those two years. By '74, block lettering had taken over.

anything I can look for to date it further? I can take pics, but i can't get them off my phone until tomorrow.

so it's pre '74, maybe pre '73. Anyone know if the Supercourse offered the suicide levers?

On a completely off topic note, my kitty goes into the vet tomorrow to get a biopsy on a growth in her mouth. :(

If you have a serial number, we have the means to provide you the date. Look on the bottom of the bottom bracket. If not there, look on the top of the seat post. You may have to do some cleaning before it is visible.

Did it have a cottered crank???

yep, cottered crank. I'll check the serial and report back. :)

Also check the stem. I had an early 70s super course that came with infamous AVA "death stem". These french stems were a poor design and would crack with unhappy results. Otherwise the Super course is a great bike and is a very nice ride. I ride a '78.

To keep things in perspective, the AVA 'death' stem on my Raleigh Grand Prix is coming up on its 40th birthday intact, and in better shape than most bicycles and a good many people the same age.

To keep things in perspective, the AVA 'death' stem on my Raleigh Grand Prix is coming up on its 40th birthday intact, and in better shape than most bicycles and a good many people the same age.


I guess you really are a "Glutton for Punishment"

My stem has "CB" on it. Also, I didnt see a serial on the bottom bracket, nor under the seatpost. ?

The stem is likely a "GB"... a deceased British manufacturer of stems, brakes, etc.

My stem has "CB" on it. Also, I didnt see a serial on the bottom bracket, nor under the seatpost. ?

Nope, that CB isn't it. Sometimes the indentation on the stamp isn't very deep and almost gets filled with paint. Make sure the underside of the bottom bracket is very clean. Even a litle dirt, and you might not see it. You may need to get in very good light and try a couple different angles before you see it.

My '70 Professional has the serial # stamped on the Chainside edge of the bottom bracket. My '78 uperCourse has serial stamped crosswise on the bottom bracket (both on the underside). My '77 GrandPrix (not 531 tubing) has serial staped on the back of the seat tube, under the seat stays, running down the length of the tube.

If yours is 1973 or later, you should see two letters, and then a number. The number that's in that 3rd position will be the ones digit of the year - i.e. WS4XXXXX Would be 1974. From what documentation I've seen 1972 or 1973 is the watershed year for serial number change If yours is FXXXX it would be 1971. GXXXX, would, I think, be 1972.

Good luck. It's gotta be there someplace. :)

I recently found a 1973 Super Course at the transfer station. I have never seen anything so filthy in my life. I don't think it has ever been cleaned or oiled in 32 years.

Anyway, I cleaned up most of it (that took half a day in itself and buckets of black water) and it is now in working order. Everything was original except the seat. Unfortunately the Brooks was replaced with a plastic job. The derailleurs were shot (both front and rear), so I pulled some Suntour Heros off an old Schwinn that was also in the junk pile. Took the wheels from the Schwinn too, as spares.

I have repacked the bearings in the rear wheel and headset, but I am not going to touch the cottered crank, since it looks too easy to damage. I just put some oil in the seams and hope it will lube the BB enough.

New bartape. Tires are okay.

Rode them 15 miles to the grocery store and back the other day, but I will put new tires on anyway. So far the total cost is about $30. I can now commute to the train station without having to worry about someone stealing my new Lemond BA. I still need to clean and grease the pedals and front wheel. Then I am done.

I've done 2 cottered in 2 weeks and both were easy - just wap the cotters real good with a flat face hammer and dont "tappity taptap" Sheldon"s words, and he's right.

It was really ugly inside one of them. Way worth taking a shot.

Once you reinstall them, ride a bit and snug the nut. They work loose, just stay on top of it until they seat and no longer creep.

My stem has "CB" on it. Also, I didnt see a serial on the bottom bracket, nor under the seatpost. ?

On the 1973 Super Course, the serial number is stamped on the rear dropout.

I've done 2 cottered in 2 weeks and both were easy

You were very lucky then. Over the years I've removed several cotter pins on old bikes. I even have the official Park tool. Even with the tool they can be an adventure to remove. Not to say I wouldn't take this one on, but if you are not well endowed with experience and tools you can end up with a mess.

You were very lucky then. Over the years I've removed several cotter pins on old bikes. I even have the official Park tool. Even with the tool they can be an adventure to remove. Not to say I wouldn't take this one on, but if you are not well endowed with experience and tools you can end up with a mess.

No kidding. I once had one the little @#$% mushroom out on me; I had to take it out with a drill. What a PITA. Since I've gotten the Park tool, I wonder why I ever used anything else. Like a Var 30 fixed cup remover, it's a tool designed for one purpose, and boy, does it do it well. I also always spray some penetrating oil in a cotter pin and let it sit for awhile before I attempt removal.

I drilled one out once, and the b*stard still wouldn't come off! :mad:

No kidding. I once had one the little @#$% mushroom out on me; I had to take it out with a drill. What a PITA. Since I've gotten the Park tool, I wonder why I ever used anything else. Like a Var 30 fixed cup remover, it's a tool designed for one purpose, and boy, does it do it well. I also always spray some penetrating oil in a cotter pin and let it sit for awhile before I attempt removal.

After removing a bunch of cotters, I've found the key is to get a rigid support under the crank before one delivers the blow to the cotter. I have a big cedar block that I've embedded a length of steel pipe into so that is sticks up vertically. I then position the crank arm horizontally with the crank arm resting firmly on the end of the steel pipe. Make sure the pipe is lined up directly under the cotter itself. The cotter is now pointing straight up. I now rest a crowbar handle sideways on top of end of the cotter protruding from the top of the crank. I strike the crowbar directly above the cotter with my biggest claw hammer. Don't be bashful. Give it a healthy blow. Cotter lands inside the pipe. I haven't found a cotter yet that will resist more than 2 strikes. Using the crowbar keeps from damaging the cotter and allows it to be reused.

On the 1973 Super Course, the serial number is stamped on the rear dropout.

Is that just the '73? My dropout has 313686 on it! Woohoo!

Vincent

Okay. My Super Course project is finally complete. This is the bike that I rescued from the trash heap. Call it a Frankenbike if you like. Obviously I added a number of things, plus new tires, bar tape, and cables. The total cost for materials was under $50. As for the value of the labor I put into it...well, let's just say it was a learning experience. The only flaw is a blip in the seat stay that you can see in the second photo. I don't know if this will result in metal fatigue, but it doesn't affect the ride at all. Any comments are appreciated.

I wouldn't worry about that seatstay. I am worried about that bar tape though; that color combination is against the law in some states. ;) Or at least it oughta be.

What's the story with that rear carrier? Looks a trifle high.

Looks great overall; I'm gonna start hanging out at the transfer station.

I am worried about that bar tape though; that color combination is .

Fall camoflague?

I wouldn't worry about that seatstay. I am worried about that bar tape though; that color combination is against the law in some states. ;) Or at least it oughta be.

Actually it's Italian flag colors...or is it Christmas? Either way, it was on clearance at Nashbar!

I found this on the web about the Italian colors.

.


The Tricolor was first adopted in 1796 by the Lombard patriots and became the symbol of Freedom and Unity. It was sanctioned as National Flag by the Italian Republic in 1802, by the Italic Kingdom in 1804 and by the first King of the Savoia dynasty, Carlo Alberto, in March 1848.

Since the first time it was adopted, the Tricolor has remained the symbol of Independence from foreign rulers for all Italians, who fought several battles during the period known as the "Risorgimento," until they succeeded in securing freedom and unity.

Let's just call it FREEDOM TAPE!

.


What's the story with that rear carrier? Looks a trifle high.

Looks great overall; I'm gonna start hanging out at the transfer station.

It attaches to the seatpost. I had a traditional rack on there first, but I kept hitting my foot against the panier. Both were free, so who am I to complain, as long as it works. The brand is Delta.

.......__o
.......\<,
....( )/ ( )

You found THAT in the trash? I realize it would have been covered in the substances that typically reside in trash heaps and refuse transfer stations, but WOW. You did a fantastic job cleaning that bugger.

My area boasts the largest junkyard in the world, and most of the garbage from new york and new jersey ends up in my county... I REALLY need to start visiting these places more regularly.

Great bike. Almost exactly like my flea market find. :)

Great bike. Almost exactly like my flea market find. :)


And it's almost like this one on Ebay, only the Ebay bike still has the brooks saddle. That should add about $50 to its value.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7146208711&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

The guy (or gal) looks like a real "power seller" with one feedback since 1999! ;)

why does she have it listed as aluminum?

why does she have it listed as aluminum?

Because its 10 pounds lighter than the steel Schwinn, and therefore it MUST be aluminum. :p

"why does she have it listed as aluminum?"

Because in bikes, many ebay sellers have no clue what they have exactly. My favorite was a Peugeot UO10 with Carbolite 103 steel tubing; it was listed as "carbon fiber" under frame material. Another one was a seller with an early PX10 who apparently got besieged with emails on a scale they had hitherto belived impossible. They had some interesting revisions on their auction...

Because its 10 pounds lighter than the steel Schwinn, and therefore it MUST be aluminum. :p

Hee hee! :D