Advocacy & Safety - Ugh - Road Rage

I punched a guy Saturday morning. I am not amused when motorists amuse themselves by playing intimidation games with cyclists. The two anecdotal lads pull in to a parking lot a block or so ahead of me thinking to have some "dialog". I place my bike on the parking lot ground and approach the driver exiting his car. The driver assumes the posture of an open handed karate stance... how silly. The passenger says "are you going to fight both of us?" Right then I zing one straight into the drivers mouth. He twists away hand covering his mouth. I guess that is what the open handed stance is for. I turn to the passenger with the reply "looks like I got time for both of you." He quickly backtracks to the passenger side of the car. Both the driver and the passenger got in the passenger side door. While they were thus involved I picked up my bike and moved between two parked cars.

Chuck Norris did a similar scene in Walker Texas Ranger (episode #12).

Enjoy

I punched a guy Saturday morning. I am not amused when motorists amuse themselves by playing intimidation games with cyclists. The two anecdotal lads pull in to a parking lot a block or so ahead of me thinking to have some "dialog". I place my bike on the parking lot ground and approach the driver exiting his car. The driver assumes the posture of an open handed karate stance... how silly. The passenger says "are you going to fight both of us?" Right then I zing one straight into the drivers mouth. He twists away hand covering his mouth. I guess that is what the open handed stance is for. I turn to the passenger with the reply "looks like I got time for both of you." He quickly backtracks to the passenger side of the car. Both the driver and the passenger got in the passenger side door. While they were thus involved I picked up my bike and moved between two parked cars.

What exactly was the incident that started this?

Boulevard... three lanes of travel in my direction. Light Sat. morning traffic. Density: less than one car per block. Me in right lane. Motorist in adjacent lane matching my speed. Eye contact with passenger. (Thery knew I was there) Lane change, rapid approach from the side. An intimidation move meant to cause a panic evasion... which would have been to wreck.

Fighting is never a good idea man, lots of people carry weapons. I might even avoid that street for a little while. Of course they probably deserved it, but that's beside the point.

Fighting is never a good idea man, lots of people carry weapons. I might even avoid that street for a little while. Of course they probably deserved it, but that's beside the point.

I agree. The risk is great. I bet it felt real good though. Didn't it?

Chuck Norris did a similar scene in Walker Texas Ranger (episode #12).

Enjoy


Is that the one where Chuck annihilates 5 attackers at once without sustaining a scratch?

Great,

Now these fine gentlemen might take their revenge out on another (unwitting) cyclist-- perhaps they will simply door him or maybe "tap" his back wheel with a bumper.

Fighting never a good idea... I suppose that to some degree I agree. But damn if I am going to forfeit my rights to some would be thugs that would presume to establish a hegemony of intimidation. Fighting never...? I don't know. Imagine a life of cringing and cowering before thugs that aren't necessarily even substantial. This idea of no violence ever, under any circumstance... When I was a kid, I learned politeness and respect... it involved a fat lip or two.

Same here, the hell with DIALOG. Just turn down a side street and wait for them to pass or go away.

yeah, avoid that area for a while - you may well be a marked man by now.

While part of me is cheering, I reckon if I'd done something like this I wouldn't post about it on a public forum.

That said, the guy got what he deserved. And don't try the 'you should have called the cops' line. Everyone here knows that the police would have done nothing about these thugs.

If you approached in a non-threatening way and the driver assumed a fighting stance, you may have feared for your safety (considering the previous action) and been well within your right to defend yourself with a pre-emptive blow. I applaud you. They will think long and hard before trying that again.

I had an incident with a young lad at a shopping center entrance. I was on the road approaching the entrance, the young man saw me, waited until I was almost to his car, then he gunned it like he was going to pull out right in front of me, causing me to brake hard. He hit the brakes and laughed. I stopped, got off my bike, walked up to his window, asked him if he would find a knuckle sandwich funny, he started stammering, at which point I emptied my bottle of Gatoraid on his dad's front leather seat, and rode off.

I'm with Allister; I have very mixed feelings about this entire thread. I do agree that the driver was justly rewarded for his immature behavior, but I do worry about potential escalation and retalliation.

Is that the one where Chuck annihilates 5 attackers at once without sustaining a scratch?
I always thought it was funny that his side kick never showed up until the fight was over.

but I do worry about potential escalation and retalliation.


I personally think it's about time these idiot drivers started worrying about potential retaliation, especially when it's them that start it. A lot of them only act this way because they feel impervious in their tin boxes, or can easily outrun us. Catch them at the lights though and the majority of them suddenly aren't so brave. Bullies are almost always cowards - they only pick fights with those they think are poweless to retaliate. Confront them and they run away like little schoolgirls, as in the above example.

But damn if I am going to forfeit my rights to some would be thugs
What? Your right to assault people in public? You're on a bike... ride away.



Imagine a life of cringing and cowering before thugs
So, would you call this a 'pre-emptive strike'? Are you now forming a 'coalition of the willing?'



When I was a kid, I learned politeness and respect... it involved a fat lip or two.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere... time to schedule another trip to your therapist.

Do you still feel good about your reaction? Do you still feel that you would respond in the same way? And do you think that this response will prevent this from happening again? ( with this driver or anyone else?) I do not want to be perceived as trying to scold you at all, in any way. But I always feel that a mello response would have carried my message much further, which I don't do often enough. Sometimes would love to have the cojones to knock someone's block off- but know I would regret it personally and would worry about retaliation on some other biker.

because they feel impervious in their tin boxes
THEY ARE impervious aren't they? They mess you up and speed away. These people think they need cars to live, how many of these trips that they take do they actually need to take by car if at all?


a life of cringing and cowering before thugs that aren't necessarily even substantial. This idea of no violence ever, under any circumstance... When I was a kid, I learned politeness and respect... it involved a fat lip or two.

I think in rereading your post I answer some of my own questions. "thugs that aren't necessarily even substantial." Then did you need to knock one around, if fighting is not always a good idea? Will that get you your "politeness and respect..." Again I am not scolding but asking the questions that go through my head after an "interaction" with entitled moron cagers.

Feels good doesn't it? Years ago, when I was in much better shape - (I was a national rowing champion back in the day) - I once yanked some yuppie out of his BWM, after he cut me off, forcing me off the road and into a ditch.

This idiot then decided to give me the finger with a big smirk on his face.

I caught up to him at a traffic light. He saw me coming, trying to avoid the light by cutting through a parking lot, he got caught in traffic a another light.

I saw his paniced faced, trying to hit the power windows, when I grabbed him and pulled him half way through the window. Happy slapping him along the way. I can't remember what I was saying to him. but it was probably like Ralphie beating up the bully, Farkas in "Christmas Story".

About 5 other people saw this, including some who must have witnessed the original incident, and nobody stopped to help the idiot or myself.

It really did feel good, and I have no regrets doing it.

Of course that was 15 years ago, on Long Island. Southern California (even Irvine and Newport Beach) is a pretty scary place. There are a lot more self-absorbed, self centered, up-tight idiots around here that wouldn't think twice about inflicting some serious harm.

What's real funny is being able to catch some of these idiots... they think they can just "act the jerk" and get away scott free because you are on a bike.

Just goes to show the speed and maneuverablity of a bike.

... with a big smirk on his face ... Yeah, that driver had something like a smirk initially. Maybe as though he'd been through a similar episode with a whiney, indignant sort of cyclist who would try argument and reason after having been threatened with death. I think that for him to have stopped and waited for me in that parking lot indicates a couple of things. I think that it indicates that he'd done it before and that the experience left him with a greater contempt for cyclists. It also indicates that he was motivated to pursue or continue his antagonism of me. There are those who argue that I created a debt to karma that others may have to pay. Conversely, it could be that this was the fellow's first hard, fast and real exposure to consequence.

No. he didn't stop in the parking lot. He got caught in traffic. I yanked him out of his car at a red light. And like I said, it felt good.

And just so I don't come across as an idiot. I am a total believer in "Karma/Golden Rule/Do Unto Others" philosophy.

I've given CPR to people fat least four times. I don't know how many tires I've changed for little old ladies that didn't have AAA. My wife is a nurse and we've stopped at more than one car accident to render aid (if we could) before the ambulances sarrived. I've worked soup kitchens, and have given up my patch kit and bicycle pump to homeless guys that are pushing some old clunker with a flat tire and are obviously down on their luck.

And the sad thing is that it doesn't take much out of your time or wallet to do the right thing. And the payoff of a sincere thank you, or just knowing you did the "right thing" is a bigger reward than any sum of money.

Nothing PO's me more than people than vapid and /or arrogant self-absorbed jack-holes. Fortunately they only represent about 3 percent of the population.


Unfortunately for me a lot of them engage in activities that interfere with my activities. If I'm cycling, more often than not its someone driving a BMW or H2 that almost hits you. If im rowing, I always get hit by the wake of some joker piloting a 40 foot motor yacht doing 10-15 mph in a 3 mph no-wake zone. Don't even get me started on jet skis.

Sorry about the rant

Rant on dude....

Half pulling him out of the car and 'happy slapping' trumps the knuckle sandwich, IMO.

...wish I had the gender and the muscle to do it once in a while!

If im rowing, I always get hit by the wake of some joker piloting a 40 foot motor yacht doing 10-15 mph in a 3 mph no-wake zone. Don't even get me started on jet skis.

Sorry about the rant

I sail. Those giant wakes can send our 30' sailboat on her ear, people and dishes flying everywhere. for some reason, they have to pass you from 30 yards away. And this is on a lake 120 miles long and 10 miles wide :mad: . And jet skis! Lake lice I call them. The bane of everybody but them. But you didn't mention cigarette boats......

I row out of Long Beach, CA on the 1932 Olymic Rowing Stadium, But I also sail. I have a 26 foot that I keep slipped in Dana Point, CA - (A small slice of Nirvana amidst the bustle of Southern California)- I know what you mean about powerboaters but as long as you expect it its not too bad - The biggest "problem area" is right outside the harbor mouth where everybody opens it up to head for the open ocean. It gets a little bouncy but it is tolerable. Jet skis tend to stay along the seawall by Doheny Beach, and don't bother anyone. Amazingly, inside the Harbor everyone is very courteous and follows the no wake rules. I can honestly say I haven't met any jerks at this harbor.

Sail three miles out of the harbor, and you don't get bothered by anyone. Total Bliss. I saw three grey whales last weekend.

[QUOTE=dogbro]I punched a guy Saturday morning. QUOTE]

Right on, I want to ride with you, man.

One side of me cringes at the thought of how all this could affect other people's perceptions of cyclists.

But then I remind myself that, generally, the people being affected already have a poor opinion of cyclists and are willing to have some fun at our expense.

I think a little comeuppance might actually improve matters.

Stay strong dogbro!

RocketsRedglare, are the whales still around? My family and I were going to go see them but weren't sure if they were still out there.

One of the guys at Islandia knows my grandfather and he offered to take us out for free, so if the wales are out there...why not?

As for beating up on motorists, I haven't done it. Hopefully never will/have to. Personally I will only fight if I am threatened(as you were) so I guess I would have done what you did. BUT I would have waited to see if the guy would throw the first punch. If he didn't I would have just walked away.

dang. I've never been in a situation where I would be able to beat the snot out of someone. the majority of my negative encounters are a horn blow or two, with a middle finger or a "hey ******!" thrown in here and there. and its always nice when I get a "nice ass!" from females. I suppose I'd also be flattered if a guy yelled that too, but so far its only been females...

Whales should be there until the end of the month and perhaps into April. Peak Migration. Occasionally ypu might see a few in the harbors at Dana Point and Long Beach.

As for confronting motorist in Southern California: DON'T DO IT. There are a lot of very, very uptight and tightly-wound, self-absorbed jackholes around here (so much for the Laid Back Stereotype)'

Yesterday some poor slob was shot in the head while driving on the 55 Freeway in Costa Mesa (Orange County), an area considered very safe.

I punched a guy Saturday morning. I am not amused when motorists amuse themselves by playing intimidation games with cyclists. The two anecdotal lads pull in to a parking lot a block or so ahead of me thinking to have some "dialog". I place my bike on the parking lot ground and approach the driver exiting his car. The driver assumes the posture of an open handed karate stance... how silly. The passenger says "are you going to fight both of us?" Right then I zing one straight into the drivers mouth. He twists away hand covering his mouth. I guess that is what the open handed stance is for. I turn to the passenger with the reply "looks like I got time for both of you." He quickly backtracks to the passenger side of the car. Both the driver and the passenger got in the passenger side door. While they were thus involved I picked up my bike and moved between two parked cars.

dogbro, congrats on standing up for yourself. I wish more cyclsits would. There are too many stupid drivers on the roads right now and the police don't seem to want to do anything to help cyclists so what choice do we have.

dogbro: was this the first time you had ever hit someone? Just wondering. I wish I had the guts but I've never been in a fight so I think I'd lose if I tried.

Dogbro-Do you have some affiliation with the escrima dog brothers?

I never would have approached someone in a parking lot, to 'teach him a lesson' as it were. If they cut me off, or behave rudely, and the incident is over with, I let it pass. I will not try to catch up with them, and continue the confrontation. Because, then it is no longer self defense. However, if I am attacked, and there is no exit, or way out of the fight, I carry pepper spray, and I have been trained how to use it. Then when they are down on the ground, kick 'em in the nuts, and f*** em up.

If you approached in a non-threatening way and the driver assumed a fighting stance, you may have feared for your safety (considering the previous action) and been well within your right to defend yourself with a pre-emptive blow. I applaud you. They will think long and hard before trying that again.

I had an incident with a young lad at a shopping center entrance. I was on the road approaching the entrance, the young man saw me, waited until I was almost to his car, then he gunned it like he was going to pull out right in front of me, causing me to brake hard. He hit the brakes and laughed. I stopped, got off my bike, walked up to his window, asked him if he would find a knuckle sandwich funny, he started stammering, at which point I emptied my bottle of Gatoraid on his dad's front leather seat, and rode off.

I'm not a lawyer, but the open-handed stance could have been defensive and your punch interpreted as assault. You can invoke self-defense only if you have tried to avoid the conflict, at least under Missouri state law. At the least, you would be charged with fighting, ie. disturbing the peace.

It might have felt good, but try to use a little self-control next time.

I'm not a lawyer, but the open-handed stance could have been defensive and your punch interpreted as assault. You can invoke self-defense only if you have tried to avoid the conflict, at least under Missouri state law. At the least, you would be charged with fighting, ie. disturbing the peace.

It might have felt good, but try to use a little self-control next time.

No lawyer here, however by the original post:

'I am not amused when motorists amuse themselves by playing intimidation games with cyclists. The two anecdotal lads pull in to a parking lot a block or so ahead of me thinking to have some "dialog". I place my bike on the parking lot ground and approach the driver exiting his car. The driver assumes the posture of an open handed karate stance... how silly. The passenger says "are you going to fight both of us?'

Various interpritations as to the 'lads' intent may be decerned. But, seeing as they already tried to intimidated a cyclist with a motor vehicle, than the cyclist has a reason to fear for his safety.

"In the eyes of the ranger,
the unsuspecting stranger,
had better know the truth of wrong from right.

For the eyes of the range are upon ya'
Just you wait and see
When you're in Texas, look behind ya''
'Cause that's were the ranger's gonna be."

I punched a guy Saturday morning. I am not amused when motorists amuse themselves by playing intimidation games with cyclists. The two anecdotal lads pull in to a parking lot a block or so ahead of me thinking to have some "dialog". I place my bike on the parking lot ground and approach the driver exiting his car. The driver assumes the posture of an open handed karate stance... how silly. The passenger says "are you going to fight both of us?" Right then I zing one straight into the drivers mouth. He twists away hand covering his mouth. I guess that is what the open handed stance is for. I turn to the passenger with the reply "looks like I got time for both of you." He quickly backtracks to the passenger side of the car. Both the driver and the passenger got in the passenger side door. While they were thus involved I picked up my bike and moved between two parked cars.

Owned.

I'm not a lawyer, but the open-handed stance could have been defensive and your punch interpreted as assault. You can invoke self-defense only if you have tried to avoid the conflict, at least under Missouri state law. At the least, you would be charged with fighting, ie. disturbing the peace.

It might have felt good, but try to use a little self-control next time.
Thank you. Very well put. I'm not a lawyer, either, but I live in Missouri as well, ( in that other city on the other side of the state) and my understanding of the law is like yours. The origional incident did not sound like a case of self defense.

BTW, we drink Boulevard Beer here.

Then when they are down on the ground, kick 'em in the nuts, and f*** em up.

no lawyer here but this don't sound like self defense either.

Kinda OT but in the same tone.... My wife and I are WALKING thru a parking lot to get to our car. We walk behind a minivan with it engine running. As soon as we get behind the van, the driver throws it in reverse and starts backing up. I guess looking behind him was too difficult. As we run out of the way he is backing towards us, fast. I push wife out of the way and give his rear window a solid hit with my hand. The whole time he is backing up I am running out of the way and yelling for him to stop. Keep in mind this all happens in a few seconds. He then puts his window down to yell at me for being in his way and I should be more careful. Hmmmm. While I agree we should be more careful, he needs to USE HIS MIRRORS! I'm 6'2, 230, a big target. What if I was a 10 y.o. child?? Anyway words ensue and I end it by telling him to have a great night and try to leave. He is still parked behind our car so we cant go anywhere. My wife is driving so as I open the passenger door, our driving instructor tells me to " yeah go get in your car with your F------ Wh---". Now I was pissed before, but my wife has said nothing the whole time and he insults her. I make a beeline for his van and tell him to step out. Instead he pulls a handgun out and points it at me. I tell my wife to get away and call 911. A few other people that have witnessed all of this do as well. Long story short, police show up and do nothing to him. Oh he has a concealed carry permit. Great. And he felt I was threatening his 3 small children (who were in the van, but I could not see due to the tinted windows and it being dark) I'm so glad this person is breeding and raising future members of society. Anyway, he left, we left (with no holes thankfully) and I think now we wanna move to Ireland and live on a farm. I guess a concealed permit allows you to point your gun at people too. Cops have to explain why they pull there weapons... I guess this guy dosent. Scary. BTW This all occured in Glendale, AZ, a "quiet" suburb of Phoenix. Be safe out there!

dogbro, first of all were these 2 older or younger then you? If they were younger, were they under the age of 18 & are you over the age of 18? I only ask because if there are younger then 18 & you're over 18 then, regardless of the circumstances you can be charged with assaulting a minor. Even if all of you are older then 18 you can still be charged with assault. You used excessive force on them. Once they pulled into the parking lot the threat to you was gone. You then decided to get your revenge by assaulting them because they caused a problem for you on the roadway. Avenging the wrong they did to you on the roadway is exactly what was on your mind & you call it self defense. Bad idea on your part.

If you think they can be charged with assault, think again. The vehicle they were driving never came in contact with you. But yet your fist came into contact with one of them. Even the verbal threat & the stance they took with you was not enough of a threat for you to assault them.

Why couldn't you have been the better person & just let it go & ride away? Especially when you saw them pull into the parking lot?

I have similar crap happen to me all the time. I let it go & ride on. The only time I take action is if it becomes a chronic problem. Like the same motorist over & over again day after day. Or the same motorist follows me along my route to cause me problems. You know how I handle it? I don't get into a fight with them. I call & report it to the police after taking thier plate # & description. Why didn't you do the same?

Like others have said because of this incident, that you seem to be so proud of, you have made the rest of the cyclists that ride in your area targets. Next time instead of doing what they did to you, they might actually just hit a cyclist & possible kill him or her. Not only that if these 2 you had a conflict with tell any of thier friends & family that could be more motorists that are gunning for cyclists that use the roadways in your community. Some of these cyclists might even include those of us here on the forums that either live near you or may visit your area. Do us all a favor, tell everyone one here what city & state you live in so we can either stay away until this calms down or simply not visit at all.

You talk about the road rage they had toward you. They may have had road rage toward you, or at least you perceived it that way. But you definatley had major road rage toward them & a lot more then they ever had toward you.

Ever hear the terms: "Violence solves nothing." & "Violence only begets violence."? Well you proved both terms are absolutley correct.

There is a proper time, place & method for handling problems such as the one you had with the 2 in the car. You handled it totally wrong. Wrong time, wrong place & definetly in the wrong manner.

NEXT TIME THINK BEFORE YOU ACT!!!

If you think they can be charged with assault, think again. The vehicle they were driving never came in contact with you.
!!!

Go look in your state laws and see what constitutes "assault". No physical contact is necessary. Physical contact is "assault and battery".
If one of those two had been witnessed screaming at his wife, he'd have been arrested in a heartbeat for assault and spousal abuse.

Kinda OT but in the same tone.... My wife and I are WALKING thru a parking lot to get to our car. We walk behind a minivan with it engine running. As soon as we get behind the van, the driver throws it in reverse and starts backing up. I guess looking behind him was too difficult. As we run out of the way he is backing towards us, fast. I push wife out of the way and give his rear window a solid hit with my hand. The whole time he is backing up I am running out of the way and yelling for him to stop. Keep in mind this all happens in a few seconds. He then puts his window down to yell at me for being in his way and I should be more careful. Hmmmm. While I agree we should be more careful, he needs to USE HIS MIRRORS! I'm 6'2, 230, a big target. What if I was a 10 y.o. child?? Anyway words ensue and I end it by telling him to have a great night and try to leave. He is still parked behind our car so we cant go anywhere. My wife is driving so as I open the passenger door, our driving instructor tells me to " yeah go get in your car with your F------ Wh---". Now I was pissed before, but my wife has said nothing the whole time and he insults her. I make a beeline for his van and tell him to step out. Instead he pulls a handgun out and points it at me. I tell my wife to get away and call 911. A few other people that have witnessed all of this do as well. Long story short, police show up and do nothing to him. Oh he has a concealed carry permit. Great. And he felt I was threatening his 3 small children (who were in the van, but I could not see due to the tinted windows and it being dark) I'm so glad this person is breeding and raising future members of society. Anyway, he left, we left (with no holes thankfully) and I think now we wanna move to Ireland and live on a farm. I guess a concealed permit allows you to point your gun at people too. Cops have to explain why they pull there weapons... I guess this guy dosent. Scary. BTW This all occured in Glendale, AZ, a "quiet" suburb of Phoenix. Be safe out there!

No need to go to Ireland, just move to Canada. You should contact the media, they love making a sensation out of stuff like this, maybe it will help fight the stupid NRA and their push to put a gun in every household.

I'll pay the simple assault fine! Way to go Dogbro,don't avoid the area where it happend.As long as we ride we will all have stories like this.

If you think they can be charged with assault, think again. The vehicle they were driving never came in contact with you. But yet your fist came into contact with one of them. Even the verbal threat & the stance they took with you was not enough of a threat for you to assault them.

The OP claims the incident began by the motorist intentionally swerving into his lane. That should be good enough for attempted assault with a deadly weapon (the automobile). Given that, the OP is within his rights to walk up near vehicle to get the license plate number and good description of the occupants. The actions of the motorist to take a fighting stance and threaten the cyclist (now pedestrian) by asking if he wants to fight both of them, creates a new incident where a reasonable person would believe the two mean to attack him. Running away in this circumstance, is not required because the close proximity does not gurantee escape and because doing so would require abandoning his personal property (the bike).

Although avoiding confrontations is generally the best course of action, in the situation described, I do not believe the cyclist had broken any law.

The OP claims the incident began by the motorist intentionally swerving into his lane. That should be good enough for attempted assault with a deadly weapon (the automobile). Given that, the OP is within his rights to walk up near vehicle to get the license plate number and good description of the occupants. The actions of the motorist to take a fighting stance and threaten the cyclist (now pedestrian) by asking if he wants to fight both of them, creates a new incident where a reasonable person would believe the two mean to attack him. Running away in this circumstance, is not required because the close proximity does not gurantee escape and because doing so would require abandoning his personal property (the bike).

Although avoiding confrontations is generally the best course of action, in the situation described, I do not believe the cyclist had broken any law.
While on a bicycle, avoiding confrontations is ALWAYS the best course of action. The cyclist did approach the motorist in the parking lot, and in my view, seeking to continue the confrontation. If he really wanted to get the licence plate information, it could have been accomplished without further contact.

no lawyer here but this don't sound like self defense either.
I believe in avoiding a fight. But if you do fight, make sure you win, and the other guy doesn't get up and hit you again. If youre going to fight, fight dirty.