What, you think I'd actually charge my dad for the privilege of taking this thing off my hands? ;)

Yeah. You're a New Yorker, aren't you? :D

Wow... We got a bad rep here... :p

Nah... we've been there, done that. Hey, however it works out, welcome to the no-car world!

I'm guessing it's because Thoreau started walking the same day his friend started his day of work to earn the ticket money, thus delaying his friend's travel until the next day?Correct. The point is that the simplest (i.e. cheapest) means of transportation is also the fastest. If you have to work 16 hours a month to pay for your car expense, that is 16 hours you could be cycling instead of working. In that time you could travel, say 300 miles on your bike, making the car a slower means of transportation than a bike. I wish I could explain it as well as Thoreau did. I have been too busy working (and cycling) to look up the quote. :)

Yeah. You're a New Yorker, aren't you? :D
Chicagoans are of the same cloth...A friend's Dad lived up near Grand Rapids...When parking fee's became his second biggest monthly bill and Steve spent hours per day, finding a place to park the beast- the dad became totally ununderstanding, when Steve asked to please, keep his dad's graduation gift to him- in his dad's garage...200 miles away was close enough . You don't need no stinkin car in big cities...Only holds you back.

Yeah. You're a New Yorker, aren't you? :D

Oi! You got something against New Yorkers? :eek:

I am! He's only going to take over the payments on it.

What, you think I'd actually charge my dad for the privilege of taking this thing off my hands? ;)

But then again he might charge you for how much it cost to bring you up?

I got around by bicycle/bus for the longest time, then became rich enough to afford a 50cc scooter in my early 20s lol! Rode motorcycles for several years and was one of those odd specimens who had a drivers license for a motorcycle but not a car! I finally got a car license at age 30, and I still get raped on car ins. because they count it by years driving, and I'm still just barely in that first 12 years.

I drive a cheap-0 Saturn Ion, it's a car GM doesn't want to make but has to to meet fuel effeciency requirements, and they're always really happy to sell one. Payment are low, but counting in payments (which were less than the maintenence on my last wheels) insurance and gas even at 7000 miles a year which is below average, I'm almost up to $6000 a year, close to the AAA's figure of $7k a year for the avg. american owning a car.

I don't drive a huge SUV, my car's not a Corvette or a BMW (the last one was the BMW haha!) and I still don't pay the kind of ins. costs an early 20-something does, but that's a lot of expense! $7k a year??? That's what I was proud to make all year, gross, once. I could still live on $7k if I had to. Folks, owning a car is EXPENSIVE. Even an unassuming plasticmobile. You'll save a TON of money by not having one of the nasty things.

SO here's the update.

My dad got the re-fi on his mortgage and he's gonna clear a lot of money on it. Instead of taking my car, he's buying a new one.

BUT...

And this is the great part...

He's giving me the difference between the trade-in value and payoff value on the loan for my car, which means, I will be car free within the next two months.

Life is indeed good!

Ummm... this is complicated. Does that mean he is using your car to trade in and get the new one?

What gives, this thread is old as what and you still have your car. Give it away and you wil be free today, or are you chicken?

Ebbtide, I have almost $9,000 left of payments on it and I have to make sure those are taken care of to get rid of the car. It isn't that easy. Calm the F down.

Rowan: He's buying a new car. He's giving me the money to make up the difference between what I would get to sell the car and what it would take to pay it off so that I can be rid of it and not have to take a loan to get rid of it.

Good job. It looks like it's all going to work out! Can't you sell it for $10k? I don't know what cars go for, so perhaps not.

People who occasionally need a car might look into a car-sharing program (http://www.carsharing.net/where.html lists a bunch). I have no direct experience with them but it seems like a great idea and I see quite a few City Carshare vehicles around San Francisco, so it seems like the program works pretty well.

Good job. It looks like it's all going to work out! Can't you sell it for $10k? I don't know what cars go for, so perhaps not.

Unfortunately, the book value on my car is only around $5,000, so I couldn't sell it for much more than that.

It's been calculated many times by different people, if you take the amount of time you work to pay for your car, considering all the expenses of owning/operating one, you come out the same as if you didn't own a car and WALKED everywhere. That's right, 5MPH.

Flawed logic. I paid about AU$11,000 for my current used car. That equates to about 7 or 8 Saturdays as a photographer in the states. A car is only a financial burden to those that cannot truly afford one. Even if I was able to ride my bike to work, I'd still own a car. When I move back to the states, I'll be buying two.

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/autocost.htm

I can afford a car, most of us can, we just see an awful lot of money going to car ownership that could go towards something else like a house or savings. And, you don't have to spend an hour or two in the gym trying to counteract the sedentary lifestyle.

The page cannot be found

A lot of the people that have posted here seem to give the impression that they cannot really afford a car. Too many people spend beyond their means. Our tandem probably cost as much as our car, but I'm happy to spend more on my bikes than on my car. I just don't see car ownership as a burden, more of a necessary evil part of the time, a luxury other times, and in the case of past 4WDs, a big boy's toy.

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/autocost.htm
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/autocost.htm
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/autocost.htm

Hopefully one of them works!!

You are correct that in the US, "you are what you drive" - I saw this, I had an old slightly wrinkly Toyota minivan, which I thought was great - it was thrifty on gas, held a lot, etc. I eventually realized that all that carrying capacity resulted in my taking home huge and relatively worthless pieces of electronics junk, and it's handling and braking capabilities verged on the unsafe in the Mad Max traffic of Phoenix, which is where I was living at the time. I admired a friend who had this little Toyota MR2, managed to get plenty of stuff packed into it to take to computer swapmeets, and it looked fun. I got a BMW, and the reactions of people were startling - just weird reactions, like I'd inherited a ton of money or something, it seemed that Toyota minivan ='d poor, and BMW ='d rich. When in reality there was no change in finances, although there was of course a much greater flow of money going into the BMW.

Hey if you need a car, and a new shiny one to seem manly, more power to you - the natural assumption if one rides a bike in the US is poverty, or that one's lost one's license due to drunk driving or other criminal offenses. Even though the car I have now is far less flashy than a bimmer, it's fairly "respectable" and I expect to get some interesting reactions if I stop using it and show up on a bike everywhere.

I'll admit, where I live is pretty unusual - right in the middle of silicon valley, and another poster mentions, it's not that hard to get around without a car here. Up in the City, owning a car is like tying an anvil around your neck and going for a swim in the bay! Here, owning a car isn't any problem, plenty of parking etc., but it's also pretty bike-able, train-able, bus-able. It's kind of a case of either/or.

Since I run a small biz I can see having a small truck or van to use for carrying commercial loads, every once in a while you just have to carry 700 lbs of wire, you know? My dream would be to get an old postal truck/van, those are cool!

I lived in CA long enough to know how true that is. I confused the matter by owning a used Landcruiser for off road excursions, a Honda Civic for getting to work in Malibu (I miss those canyons) and a new RAV4 because I needed something civilized for taking out my chickies. I kept the RAV4 and 5 bikes in my garage.

The page cannot be found

A lot of the people that have posted here seem to give the impression that they cannot really afford a car. Too many people spend beyond their means. Our tandem probably cost as much as our car, but I'm happy to spend more on my bikes than on my car. I just don't see car ownership as a burden, more of a necessary evil part of the time, a luxury other times, and in the case of past 4WDs, a big boy's toy.
If they can't afford a car, don't you think it's wise to stick with a bicycle, instead of pouring already limited resources down a well. I really can't decide if your comments are offensive or not. I'm reading it as: "The only people who think looks don't matter are people too ugly to land a beautiful girlfriend." But I might've misread.

I hail from Detroit ..Detroiters upbringing..Cars are status... How can that learned trait be lost..It is supposed to be an aculturated value that is ingrained upon birth..Not me..I pay no attention to what product lines exist...Think I was attracted to my JEtta because it is compact, reasonably fuel efficient, red and the bike rack was sold at cost by VW...
Cars not status to me..SUV's..'Suddenly Upside Down vehicle'..TUrn me off.
I will always have a car..But , normally biking to work would make me proud. cars just an option.. They consume unreasonable amounts of resources, pollute, make us lazy and therefor sick , and burden the earth at our landfills.

OK here's a good one, I had to have the BMW in the shop, ended up being in there 2 weeks, so I went to the rental car place next door, and looked at getting a rental, thought it was on the insurance's dime silly me (it kind of was and kind of wasn't....) and I saw that I could rent a New Beetle for something like $7 a day, I jumped on that..... so here I am driving this cutsie thing around, and for months afterward people were saying stuff like "Oh yeah you have that cool beetle" etc. Gawd. Given the choice between a 10 year old BMW or a new New Beetle, take the seasoned bimmer.

Hmm ..... I only put 7k mile a year on my Ion, and I just got out the calc just now and figured that comes to 20 miles a day, I actually did about that when I was bike only - much of it just fun riding, do the 10 miles to/from work and then another 10-20 blasting around.

I really think we're "early adopters" in this bike only thing, but watch gas hit $3 a gallon this summer .... are we Americans even allowed to remember that last summer there was a real spike in fuel prices and warnings of possible blackouts? I know we're not supposed to think about the past, the future... heck even think at all..... anyone remember? So I think it's reasonable to think that gas may well hit $3, then next summer maybe the spike will = $4

In any case, what you drive is a HUGE status thing in the US, but I like to think the new status symbol will be a serious cyclist's cardiovascular health and legs....

If they can't afford a car, don't you think it's wise to stick with a bicycle, instead of pouring already limited resources down a well. I really can't decide if your comments are offensive or not. I'm reading it as: "The only people who think looks don't matter are people too ugly to land a beautiful girlfriend." But I might've misread.

You've misread. If I wanted to offend you personally, there's plenty of ways to do it. But you've sided with me on too many other issues, so I certainly wouldn't offend a good ally.

This forum is about sharing viewpoints and opinions. I'm just noting that many people seem to feel their car is a financial burden. I always paid cash for mine, and have a perfect driving record, so insurance was cheap. I've basically used the same mechanic for repairs since we were in high school together, and used coupons from my ex-brother in law's lube shop for cheap oil changes. Owning a small fleet of cars in California was never a burden. I could have gone without a 4WD for playing off road, but it also hauled drywall, bricks, and tiles when I remodelled my home. I was single and making a very good living. There's also simply no way I could get my photo gear to a shoot or event without a car, or small SUV depending on the job. I would love to be able to ride my bike more places, but it's just not feasible for me. As I stated before, I lasted about 2 weeks without a car here in Australia. That has more to do with my distaste for public transport than the fact that my bikes were in shipping container on their way here.

Nah Expat's OK, he's just salty from living in OZ, just consider him our forum's crunchy little porkrind.... :-D

Yeah for photog work, carpentry, etc you just gotta have a car...... and that's the rationale I used when I moved up here, gotta have a car. Well ... yes and no.... I do run a biz, and have been known to pick up the odd 100+ lbs of stuff ... but it's almost a rule that the lighter the item, the greater my profit on it. 'Scope probes, profitable, crystal oscillators, even more so (they weigh less) and if I can find out a source for collins mechanical filters, little gadgets that weigh about as much as a cigarette butt, huge profits possible.

Anything that can't be carried in a bag, backpack, or panniers, I'm better off not buying!

And to clarify, I could not do what i do carless in Orange County, I had to drive huge distances. Or in Phoenix, likewise. Silicon valley is unique or nearly so, it's kinda large but very bikeable.

One looks at the I 405 or the 101, not moving..I just do not see how cars are considered efficient..The motoring public is in a rage over gridlock..Been to Europe or even places like New York/Chicago too much..It is cars that don't work...
Too many places..Suburban sprawl slows down cars and buses..But the world's biggest, most civilized cities would stop dead in their tracks without public transit.

Um, Zealot.... Los Angeles is already dead in its tracks during "rush" hour and for all practical purposes they have no public transit.

I lived in L.A. for a while, near the airport, and calculated my car travel at 15MPH it was very consistant. Funny thing, I also walked a lot in that town, more than anywhere else. I was nearly flat broke, and would walk to save gas and also in some perverse way I liked it.

Nah Expat's OK, he's just salty from living in OZ, just consider him our forum's crunchy little porkrind.... :-D

Shhh! I've had enough. The gov't here collects taxes on taxes on taxes. Then they act like it's a big favor when we get some of it back. So what if I don't see a bill for healthcare (the kids, not me, as I don't get sick or broken easily). We're paying way too much for a 1920's art deco miner's cottage. $100/month for TV, $60 for ADSL, $100+ for electricity, and at least $300 for groceries. And we live in the city with the highest unemployment in all of Australia. My Aussie Princess has decided she would rather live in the US. I estimate that my total time in Australia will be just over 2 years, then it's back to the US, with my Aussie family in tow. Forget about car expenses, this has cost me a fortune.

One looks at the I 405 or the 101, not moving..I just do not see how cars are considered efficient..The motoring public is in a rage over gridlock..Been to Europe or even places like New York/Chicago too much..It is cars that don't work...
Too many places..Suburban sprawl slows down cars and buses..But the world's biggest, most civilized cities would stop dead in their tracks without public transit.

Go north my friend. I lived in Westlake Village. No freeway travel required for work, which was a major benefit to my health and general well-being.

[edit] By the way, the 101 is much better after you get over the hump at Calabassas. Starts to slow down after Camarillo. Go figure.

You've misread. If I wanted to offend you personally, there's plenty of ways to do it. But you've sided with me on too many other issues, so I certainly wouldn't offend a good ally.

This forum is about sharing viewpoints and opinions. I'm just noting that many people seem to feel their car is a financial burden. I always paid cash for mine, and have a perfect driving record, so insurance was cheap. I've basically used the same mechanic for repairs since we were in high school together, and used coupons from my ex-brother in law's lube shop for cheap oil changes. Owning a small fleet of cars in California was never a burden. I could have gone without a 4WD for playing off road, but it also hauled drywall, bricks, and tiles when I remodelled my home. I was single and making a very good living. There's also simply no way I could get my photo gear to a shoot or event without a car, or small SUV depending on the job. I would love to be able to ride my bike more places, but it's just not feasible for me. As I stated before, I lasted about 2 weeks without a car here in Australia. That has more to do with my distaste for public transport than the fact that my bikes were in shipping container on their way here.
Oh, no worries, then. I agree with you now that I understand.

But Hinault..single digit traffic flow is spreading from Santa Monica to Mexico..The 1-15 going into San Diego only averages the teens for at least 4 hours a day. and that if there are no accidents..A good web site about "LA Traffic Conditions..Is Trafficinfo.la..confirms that..
15 mph..My average bike speed is greater than that.

Expat... Have to ask my employer if they will move north...When you get all our parking lots and McDonalds', bet more freeways will follow.

Expat... Have to ask my employer if they will move north...When you get all our parking lots and McDonalds', bet more freeways will follow.

We won't be returning to Westlake. I bought my home at the most opportune time, and sold at a very opportune time. Translation: I could never afford to buy my old home back.

Expat - I'd heard Oz is some kind of a paradise, I guess that means there has to be a catch ...... sounds awful, nice place but getting charged a fortune for everything, and if you're out of work even job-sparse California will look good. Better get out while you can afford the plane fare!

Zealot - Yep, the whole area from Santa Barbara to Mexico is becoming one huge supercity, and yes, traffic flow can be in the single digits from end to end, I know, I experienced it. I didn't know the 15 was that bad, but I guess I'm not surprised, all those new McMansions going in in the Inland Empire, than you have people with 50+ mile (each way) commutes going back and forth..... what a way to live.

Expat just rent and smile, my apt here in Si valley costs what my pals with houses are paying just to keep their lights on and water running, and my rent went DOWN last lease-signing.

However, that being said, if you have a wife/kids, and you can buy where it honestly does cost you about the same as rent, you might look at buying, because even if real estate flattens or goes down (we're not supposed to remember that those who bought in '91 had to wait a full decade for their house to become worth what they paid again...) you won't mind because you're in for the long run.

Expat - I'd heard Oz is some kind of a paradise, I guess that means there has to be a catch ...... sounds awful, nice place but getting charged a fortune for everything, and if you're out of work even job-sparse California will look good. Better get out while you can afford the plane fare!

It's a paradise if you have money, or aren't used to living a California lifestyle. I estimate that I spent about $80k my first year here, and only justified it to myself as one really long holiday. We're a 20 minute bike ride from the beach, but it's not like a bit north of here, where it is truly paradise. I'm not knockin' where I live, it's just too hard to maintain anything like the lifestyle I had before. We're moving someplace inland in the states, with lakes and snow. Time for a change.

Gentlemen, I am still a newlywed, and it is close to 10PM here. I must wish my friends goodnite, and my enemies good riddance. Cheers.

I went car-free at the end of 1999 because I got behind in my payments. It took me about two months to adjust to being without car. I got my bike in June of 2000, and loved it - although that first ride home of five miles nearly killed me!

I did have a car again in 2003 and part of 2004. When it died in June of 2004, my partner and I talked about it and decided to go car-free again. We've been without car for ten months now, and don't miss it! We rented a car once to make a long-distance trip; other than that, we bike or walk, and use the bus.

You'll do fine! Just give yourself two months to get used to it - having a car is very much like having an addiction!

I'm doing it. I'm really doing it.

The car goes.

Barring some major flip, my dad is gonna take my car off my hands. I figure that's gonna be about a $1,200 savings for a car I used to only use 8 days a month. Of course, I'm nervous about this.

Comfort me! If you've done it already, your encouragement would be much appreciated! :o

Hinault..Example..Rainbow..Elevation 1500, population about the same....eg rural....They grow avocados and citrus.. a wide path in the road...a spot on the 15 where you might be able to accelerate for 10 miles....on the "Avocado freeway."
well...just announced 9000 new homes to be built there...Moutains in the way of progress...just flat top them..there will be no rural areas between Temecula and Escondido. you can actually bike in this area for about 9 miles of road without hitting one stop sign in a 4 foot wide bike path..No more.

The page cannot be found

A lot of the people that have posted here seem to give the impression that they cannot really afford a car. Too many people spend beyond their means. Our tandem probably cost as much as our car, but I'm happy to spend more on my bikes than on my car. I just don't see car ownership as a burden, more of a necessary evil part of the time, a luxury other times, and in the case of past 4WDs, a big boy's toy.
I don't know about Australia, but most people in the US can afford a car (I know I can; like many posters here I just choose not to). The real question is: can our society afford the sprawl and alienation brought on by autos? Can our environment afford the increasing water and air pollution caused by cars? Can our own bodies afford the effects of pollution and a sedentary lifestyle-- not to mention auto accidents, a leading cause of death in many parts of the world?

If you cannot see the damage caused by autos, you are either blind or a brainwashed victim of cororate marketing. Try using your own eyes and your own brain to reach some unobvious but true conclusions. Then, if you still want a car, more power to you. But do not believe that your decision to drive does not impact negatively on yourself and on your society and planet.

I don't think that the elimination of automobiles is possible or even desirable. But it is imperative that we reduce our dependence on them, or we will continue to suffer the consequences.

What was the beginning of my turn against the car culture...I think of the auto culture as cars effect cities...From a city planner's point of view...Cars/freeways have caused us to abandon our cities..W/o cars, I claim this would likely Not result..I am a city person...and cities should be the pinnacle of our culture/civilization...Not its' dumping ground...Guess couple urban planning courses was the beginning of my new views on the auto.

Same here. In fact, the word civilization means city, as you probably know. I have been spending time in one city (Traverse City, MI) that is even now being transformed from a beautiful and compact city to an ugly, sprawling auto-opolis. It makes me very sad to see this happening, and to see those residents who protest labelled as "kooks and tree-huggers."

Kent Peterson, who is legendary in randonneuring circles, just posted this little phrase as part of a longer post elsewhere:

I'm not anti-car, I'm just pro-bike

I have been looking for something that might just sum up the views of many without getting fundamentalist about it. That seems to fit the bill.

(Quoted in the cause of education with no commercial gain attached)

Zealot - That sounds about right, build 9000 houses out where people will be car-dependent, what, you think they're gonna run a bus service out there? All I can say is, the coming real estate and oil crash is not going to come too soon - flattening hills so they can put in more ugly condos, singles or couples living with 2000 sq. ft. per person in the US, unoccupied 2nd and even 3rd houses, and something like 30% of the houses being bought new being bought by speculators.

Yeah, I can afford a car, but can I think of a better use for the $6k a year it costs to own mine? I sure can! And can I afford being at least 20 lbs overweight, which is more like being 30 lbs overweight for the avg. american male (I'm the avg. american female).

I'll admit, the roads are really hellish the way things are set up now, traffic today was horrible! I went to downtown Palo Alto and I was thinking what a quiet, friendly, convivial (an illich-ism there) place it would be without all the cars, the gunning and gassing and loud stereo systems, and people sitting at sidewalk cafe's with 3000lb "assault" vehicles roaring by 10 ft. away and this being considered normal. Wonder how many of them were talking about friends or family members who died in car crashes, since we all have friends and family who have. Come on, we all have, in my own case it was my mom who was in a bad accident and then years and years of depressed half-life in a care home, then died. But this is all normal. We had diseases killing people right and left 100+ years ago, and that was considered normal, now we have cars killing us right and left and that's considered normal.

I had to transport about 100+ lbs of big ugly CATV amps and stuff today, but that could have been done with a bike trailer or a cab, and I'm not sure if I've done myself a favor getting this stuff, did car'ing instead of biking keep me from hitting some other places and finding some nice scope probes or xtal oscs instead? - equally good stuff and smaller and prettier.

Roody you're right, we've been living off of millions of years' of saved up energy in the form of oil, we've been living a 100 year long party, and like most Lotto winners it's not made us better people, just fatter and more spoiled and "feeling entitled".

Hinault..If you know North County , San Diego...Has been rural..beutiful hilly terrain..well, the merchants of Fallbrook..sort of upset all the development out in nearby, agricultural Rainbow..think because the growth is like 8 miles east of town, will encourage shoppers to not go to Fallbrook..Well, out on the 15 corridor..In busy Temecula it can take 10-15 minutes to exit the off ramp of the freeway..traffic backed up...( to shop in Temecula, during rush hour.)so I think they are wrong..They will spend the time traveling into Fallbrook on the two lane roads over traveling the non-moving freeways.
By the way..this planning meeting about the 9000 homes..350 locals showed up...It was a riot scene...hot tempers. see what happens..our bike heaven is to be a thing of the past.