Commuting - Stoplights

You are at a stop light that is not on a timer. Some lights react to a cyclist weight, some don't. This one doesn't. Cross traffic is stopped when an on coming car tripped the signal. It received a green but you didn't. After a moment, cross traffic is once again given a green. Now, do you run the red when it's safe to do so?

Yes. The light is effectively inoperative for the cyclist. The cyclist can legally run the light.

I agree. The cyclist can, in that example, treat the signal as defective. Defective signals are in turn treated as stop signs.

You must still wait untill cross traffic is clear however.

Personally, some lights I just dissmount and walk. YMMV

is there no button to push for crosswalk? If you're going to walk anyway...

FYI it is not wieght that most censors sense - its magnetism (ferrous metal) - there isn't nearly enough of it on your bicycle. Often, motorcycles have the same problem.

ooops - that was sensors that sense. Sorry !

I think CA law says something about waiting for three minutes and then proceeding when it's safe to do so. Whatever. I usually sit through a couple of cycles of being ignored and go push the crosswalk button. On intersections where I know I will be ignored and there is no traffic to trip the sensors for me, I go straight for the button.

What really sucks is when these sensors are used to open the gate to my apartment complex. It makes it so I have to walk (or ride carefully and slowly) on the footpaths through the complex to get out. Really lame.

What really sucks is when these sensors are used to open the gate to my apartment complex. It makes it so I have to walk (or ride carefully and slowly) on the footpaths through the complex to get out. Really lame.

at my complex there's a spot that i've learned to ride slowly towards and the gate opens.

as for the lights, i'll wait for a few mins, or a couple of cycles if it's a light i havn't been to before. If it won't change for me, I'll go for the button if I'm trying to go straight through the intersection, but when turning left, I just go after it's apparant that the light isn't going to 'see' me. I've been surprised by a few lights that I thought wouldn't 'see' me that did, so I always give them a fair chance first.

is there no button to push for crosswalk? If you're going to walk anyway...

Not allways. Not on the one that I dissmount and walk across (daily) on the outbound leg of my commute.

FYI it is not wieght that most censors sense - its magnetism (ferrous metal) - there isn't nearly enough of it on your bicycle. Often, motorcycles have the same problem.

Yes it is magnetism but any metal moving through a magnetic field will disturb the field. That's how the sensors work. A disturbance in the magnetic field trips a circuit in the control box that makes the lights work. The problem is that the loop in the pavement can't be set so sensitive that it can pick up a bicycle at any place along the loop or cross traffic would trip the sensor.

Look for the loops in the pavement and try riding directly over the wire. If there is a figure 8 pattern cut in the pavement ride over the middle wire (there are actually 2 wires there - double the sensitivity). I can trip nearly any light in Denver using this method.

Yes it is magnetism but any metal moving through a magnetic field will disturb the field. That's how the sensors work. A disturbance in the magnetic field trips a circuit in the control box that makes the lights work. The problem is that the loop in the pavement can't be set so sensitive that it can pick up a bicycle at any place along the loop or cross traffic would trip the sensor.

Look for the loops in the pavement and try riding directly over the wire. If there is a figure 8 pattern cut in the pavement ride over the middle wire (there are actually 2 wires there - double the sensitivity). I can trip nearly any light in Denver using this method.

Here's (http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm) a good description of how the sensors work and how to trip them.

Not allways. Not on the one that I dissmount and walk across (daily) on the outbound leg of my commute.

Talk to your city traffic engineers. Explain the problem and ask them if they can help. They really are good people and if you ask them for help they will respond better than if you just complain.

Regarding whether it is legal to proceed; I recommend checking with your local traffic regulations. In most places I have encountered sensor-activated lights, cyclists may regard the light as a 4-way stop.

What is frustrating to me is that one must often wait several minutes to find out if you triggered the sensor or not. It would be great if the lightpost visible from the street had an LED on it that indicated when the sensor had been triggered.

Al

Yes it is magnetism but any metal moving through a magnetic field will disturb the field. That's how the sensors work. A disturbance in the magnetic field trips a circuit in the control box that makes the lights work. The problem is that the loop in the pavement can't be set so sensitive that it can pick up a bicycle at any place along the loop or cross traffic would trip the sensor.

Look for the loops in the pavement and try riding directly over the wire. If there is a figure 8 pattern cut in the pavement ride over the middle wire (there are actually 2 wires there - double the sensitivity). I can trip nearly any light in Denver using this method.

I have tried to use very powerful rare earth magnets on the bottom of my bike to trip these things... some of them are set so high that only an auto will set them off.

Talk to your city traffic engineers. Explain the problem and ask them if they can help. They really are good people and if you ask them for help they will respond better than if you just complain.
Agreed. Alterting (in a constructive way) those who can improve/tune the sensor system is the very best option. While it may be legal in some areas to proceed on red it is not as safe, may create a liability problem for you if there is an accident, and most practically, proceeding on red is often not possible due to heavy x-traffic.

Al

Agreed. Alterting (in a constructive way) those who can improve/tune the sensor system is the very best option. While it may be legal in some areas to proceed on red it is not as safe, may create a liability problem for you if there is an accident, and most practically, proceeding on red is often not possible due to heavy x-traffic.

Al

Plus, if you develop a good relation with the traffic engineers and city planners, you never know what you may be able to convince them to do. I have stretches of concrete and bridges that I got put in place or kept from being removed.

I have tried to use very powerful rare earth magnets on the bottom of my bike to trip these things... some of them are set so high that only an auto will set them off.

Where are you riding in relation to the loop? If you cross the loop at only 2 points, the sensor won't trip. I ride right over the wire in the pavement for the entire length. That way I can trip most any of the dipole sensors out there.

Some cities are replacing the loop with a motion sensor. Look for a camera like device on top of the stoplight arm. These are more of a problem to trip because we cyclists are so narrow. I've found that I can trip these if I do a little "hook" just before I stop (turn slightly right or left). That presents a bigger target for the sensor.

Where are you riding in relation to the loop? If you cross the loop at only 2 points, the sensor won't trip. I ride right over the wire in the pavement for the entire length. That way I can trip most any of the dipole sensors out there.

Some cities are replacing the loop with a motion sensor. Look for a camera like device on top of the stoplight arm. These are more of a problem to trip because we cyclists are so narrow. I've found that I can trip these if I do a little "hook" just before I stop (turn slightly right or left). That presents a bigger target for the sensor.

When I see the loop I follow these directions...


http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/sweetspots.gif

Most of our local loops are the single loop type.

The problem often is finding the loop... road repairs cover the loop locations. Also I am now thinking of mouting a couple of the magnets on my spokes at the edge of the rims so they are closer than the present location on my BB. I know magnetic fields really dissappate fast.

I figure if I balance out the weight by putting them on either side of the wheel, it also gives me twice the opportunity to trigger the sensors.

Has any one else tried magnets? Rare earth magnets are very powerful, I would really think they might work.

When I see the loop I follow these directions...


http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/sweetspots.gif

Most of our local loops are the single loop type.

The problem often is finding the loop... road repairs cover the loop locations. Also I am now thinking of mouting a couple of the magnets on my spokes at the edge of the rims so they are closer than the present location on my BB. I know magnetic fields really dissappate fast.

I figure if I balance out the weight by putting them on either side of the wheel, it also gives me twice the opportunity to trigger the sensors.

Has any one else tried magnets? Rare earth magnets are very powerful, I would really think they might work.

Repaving does make finding the loop difficult. And considering that we need to ride directly over the wire does present a problem when you can't find it. I think there are AASHTO guidelines for marking pavement for the loop. Perhaps you should talk to the traffic engineers and explain the situation. Maybe they can help.

I don't think that magnets will work. The problem with magnets, even very powerful ones, is that their field weakens as you get further away from the magnet (I believe it is with the cube of the distance, if my college physics serves me right). Thus when the magnet on your bike interacts with the magnetic field of the induction loop, it's field is too small to cause a current disturbance. The coil doesn't see the magnet as such but only as another piece of metal and a small one at that. Moving it closer to the ground would help but I don't know if that would be enough. Remember the coil is buried about an inch under ground and that is outside even the most powerful fixed magnet's field.

Moving it closer to the ground would help but I don't know if that would be enough. Remember the coil is buried about an inch under ground and that is outside even the most powerful fixed magnet's field.

how about putting a magnet in your shoe or on the undersid of your pedals. Small weight increase but your pedals can get closer to the pavement, and if it's in or on your shoe, you can unclip and stand on the friggin loop.

Repaving does make finding the loop difficult. And considering that we need to ride directly over the wire does present a problem when you can't find it. I think there are AASHTO guidelines for marking pavement for the loop. Perhaps you should talk to the traffic engineers and explain the situation. Maybe they can help.

I don't think that magnets will work. The problem with magnets, even very powerful ones, is that their field weakens as you get further away from the magnet (I believe it is with the cube of the distance, if my college physics serves me right). Thus when the magnet on your bike interacts with the magnetic field of the induction loop, it's field is too small to cause a current disturbance. The coil doesn't see the magnet as such but only as another piece of metal and a small one at that. Moving it closer to the ground would help but I don't know if that would be enough. Remember the coil is buried about an inch under ground and that is outside even the most powerful fixed magnet's field.


Yeah, the cube of the distance is the right formula... that's why I just realized that putting the things on a spoke at the wheel rim might be far more effective than on the bottom of my BB. Bottom of the shoe is a killer idea... I have Look cleats, so anything just after of the huge cleat would be fine. Heck, put the darn things all over. I gotta try this again. I was so disappointed when it did not work on the bottom of the BB, I just sorta gave up.

Yeah, the cube of the distance is the right formula... that's why I just realized that putting the things on a spoke at the wheel rim might be far more effective than on the bottom of my BB. Bottom of the shoe is a killer idea... I have Look cleats, so anything just after of the huge cleat would be fine. Heck, put the darn things all over. I gotta try this again. I was so disappointed when it did not work on the bottom of the BB, I just sorta gave up.

just had a thought.

http://store.magneticjewelryoriginals.com/flexmagin.html
http://www.magnetemporium.com/insoles.htm

You are at a stop light that is not on a timer. Some lights react to a cyclist weight, some don't. This one doesn't. Cross traffic is stopped when an on coming car tripped the signal. It received a green but you didn't. After a moment, cross traffic is once again given a green. Now, do you run the red when it's safe to do so?

I have been able to trip lights in the past. Some lights I can still trip, usually by riding the groove the wire is in.

But how do you trip the circular loops that are starting to be installed (at least around here).

There are also some intersections (Banyan and Daycreek and Banyan and Etiwanda, for those of you that know the RAncho Cucamonga area in California) that don't have any loops or cuts or squares that I can see. There is a sign on the light post on the corner that says "Cyclists push button for green light"; the sign seems really stupid to me in that I must cross/ride down a right-turn only lane to push the button and to go straight through I either take off from the curb by the button (technically illegal since I am in a right-turn only lane) or cross back over the right-turn only lane to get back to the through lanes (east/west on Banyan). If there is traffic (turning right especially) I try to make friends with the right turn drivers and wave them through the right-turn untill the light turns green for me to go straight. What a PITA.

I guess I will have to get off my butt and contact someone in the city Traffic dept. and ask them what gives. . .

There is a sign on the light post on the corner that says "Cyclists push button for green light"; the sign seems really stupid to me in that I must cross/ride down a right-turn only lane to push the button and to go straight through I either take off from the curb by the button (technically illegal since I am in a right-turn only lane) or cross back over the right-turn only lane to get back to the through lanes (east/west on Banyan). If there is traffic (turning right especially) I try to make friends with the right turn drivers and wave them through the right-turn untill the light turns green for me to go straight. What a PITA.

I guess I will have to get off my butt and contact someone in the city Traffic dept. and ask them what gives. . .
We have those same buttons in Tempe, AZ. They are most annoying, I do your second method, press the button, then crab over to the correct position (and let right turners pass me on my right). However when there is a line of right turners moving forward (who don't trigger the light) this puts me in a difficult situation of having to squeeze between them and the curb to press the button so I get a light to proceede straight or left. These push button for lights on the right curb are one of the worst cyclist facilties ever put in place. Just last week I was going straight (looked behind me to see if a car is coming, none yet) went across right turn lane (and over go straight bike lane) to press button, a car came up and went around me in the go straight lane to make a right turn around me.

Al

Thanks for all the input. There is no crosswalk at the intersection that I have a problem with. I trip the light going North, but not South. I have always run the light after waiting, but I wanted feed back from other cyclists. I will look for the wire loop in the ground and see what happens on tomorrow.

We have those same buttons in Tempe, AZ. They are most annoying, I do your second method, press the button, then crab over to the correct position . . .

Al

If they would put the button a ways back from the light it's use wouldn't be so hard, but I suppose they thought they were doing the cyclists a favor by putting a button there in the first place. It'd be nice if they had a separate loop for bicyclists, adjusted appropriately, and marked so a cyclist knows to roll over it. I guess I shall have to dream on. . .

If they would put the button a ways back from the light it's use wouldn't be so hard, but I suppose they thought they were doing the cyclists a favor by putting a button there in the first place. It'd be nice if they had a separate loop for bicyclists, adjusted appropriately, and marked so a cyclist knows to roll over it. I guess I shall have to dream on. . .
I would still have problems with a button even if a good distance from the light, because it would force the cyclist to put themselves up against the right curb, which I never do and also would not allow for smooth merges to the correct lane position. If a bike inductive loop, it needs to be in both left turn and go straight lanes and allow for correct positioning within those lanes.
Al

I would still have problems with a button even if a good distance from the light, because it would force the cyclist to put themselves up against the right curb, which I never do and also would not allow for smooth merges to the correct lane position. If a bike inductive loop, it needs to be in both left turn and go straight lanes and allow for correct positioning within those lanes.
Al

I'm-a with you on this, but it would be at least a little better than what is in place now!

Understood, but I do not want cities to ever think these buttons for cyclists are a good thing, no matter how they are implemented.
I find they are the worst bit of infrastructure ever concieved for cyclists to the point that I want existing ones removed. They force a dangerous sitation and completely inhibit ones ability to ride with the proper flow of traffic. And if that is not bad enough, they take the city off the hook to tune the inductive sensors to work for bicycles.
Al

If they would put the button a ways back from the light it's use wouldn't be so hard, but I suppose they thought they were doing the cyclists a favor by putting a button there in the first place. It'd be nice if they had a separate loop for bicyclists, adjusted appropriately, and marked so a cyclist knows to roll over it. I guess I shall have to dream on. . .

Some intersections have a little bicycle loop in the pavement. It's in the middle of the lane, all the way at the front, maybe a few inches behind the stop line. If there's one at an intersection, there will be a little bicycle painted there. Unfortunately they're very rare around here.

Some intersections have a little bicycle loop in the pavement. It's in the middle of the lane, all the way at the front, maybe a few inches behind the stop line. If there's one at an intersection, there will be a little bicycle painted there. Unfortunately they're very rare around here.
They have those in the university area of Tempe, AZ, but they are only in the bike lane which makes them totally useless if making a left turn.
Al

Thanks for all the help. The wire loop idea was outstanding. I have no problems now.

Not allways. Not on the one that I dissmount and walk across (daily) on the outbound leg of my commute.


Talk to your city traffic engineers. Explain the problem and ask them if they can help. They really are good people and if you ask them for help they will respond better than if you just complain.

Old thread, thanks for the tip though-and in most places that would work. Not in Beantown though...I've called about a fallen road sign (due to a car crash) on this particular MUP-its still there coming up on a year later. I pulled it off the trail the first time I allmost nailed it (it's one of those giant highway sized ones).

Here's a link (http://www.charlesriverconservancy.org/projects/pathways/) to a survey with recomendations regarding the intersection. See the Dudley White Pathway Project Report (on the page I linked to above). The intersection which I ALLWAYS dissmount and walk (River Street&Soldiers Field road) can be seen on pp 6,8,&11-14.