General Cycling Discussion - Can a Bike Have Soul?

OK--here's the analogy: Some people might say that a home-grown tomato has a soul but a store-bought tomato does not. You might say that a coffee mug made on a potter's wheel has a soul but a plastic mug from WalMart does not. It could perhaps be said that a 1950s Ford truck has a soul but a modern Ford Taurus does not.

So--using that (or any other) kind of mindset, could a bicycle be said to have a soul? (or maybe just soul as in rhythm and soul) And if the answer is yes, what makes it so?

Every bike I have ridden with a Reynolds 531 frame demonstrated a heart full of soul. My '80's bikes with Tange steel frames also have a bit of soul, but in measured, polite amounts...not the robust soul of vintage British steel.

Aluminum and carbon frames have all of the soul of the "high tech" factories where they are stamped out.

Yes, I believe it can. It is a combination of the philosophy and passion that both the frame builder and the owner have towards cycling.

55/Rad

Rad 55 said it well...But my newer race bike has a special spirit I call upon when I am in the right mood...
The memories my 11 year old road bike and I have been through...it has to retain those places/events as do I...I say yes.

Soul, no

Personality, yes!

yah, I think so.
A current De Rosa, Colnago, Pinarello etc. can have lots of go fast
but a 1968 De Rosa Super Record, a 1972 Colnago super
and for sure a 1974 Masi GC sure has Mojo!
I do think it is in the tubes, the builders passion and whole
gestalt of how the bike is put together.
can I define it? no but here's a few components I think
have soul.
Brooks Team Pro saddle (or any brooks for that matter).
Campy Super Record Gruppo with Ti bits
Clement Seta Silks
Suntour Superbe gruppo
I just don't think that the modern stuff has the
same "feel", its more precise (every Trek
Madone will ride the same, every production
bike gets the same treatment?)
KOF builders have mojo, Baylis, Sachs, Moon, Don Ferris.
Kirk Pacenti Lugs have mojo as do Sachs Newvex lugs.

Ok, I've rambled and stumbled into retrogrouch land enough

Marty

I don't reserve a bike having soul to older bikes or custom or anything. I think it is all on the rider/owner. My Kona Roast has a soul. she has been screaming at me for the last year since I disabled her and pulled the parts off for a newer rig. I recently rebuilt her and she is back in action and better than ever.

... could a bicycle be said to have a soul?Nope. Sorry. If there is any hunk of machinery that will eventually develop a soul it will be the computer. It's certainly not going to happen any time soon, but if Moore's Law continues it will eventually happen. Intelligent silicon based life crafted by the hand of man.

Of course, Pamela Anderson had some silicon crafted by the hand of man (felt up by the hand of man too I suppose!) but it wasn't intelligent. That being said, her implants were probably much smarter than she.

Edit: I should have stated felt up by the hand of men, many many men. :D

Yes.

Ev My '80's bikes with Tange steel frames also have a bit of soul, but in measured, polite amounts...not the robust soul of vintage British steel.

Not my Ritchey Tange tubeset.
The bike leaps and claws up hills, kicking and spitting mud.

The bike was red, red is the fastest color for a frame.
I had to remove over 75% of the red paint just to keep the bike on the ground.
But then I realized i had removed TOO much red and the bike was slowing...

I added red peddles, seat, grips, cables, cages....even red hex skewers.
I again have the perfect red\to black amount to have max speed and remain in control.

I've probably hand picked most every stupid bolt on my fave bike, some of the bearings too.
I fixed my friends bike and 'borrowed' his superior Sugino chainring bolts. Low...yes I told him. ;)

If you built it yourself..it's gotta have soul.

Some of my bikes got soul.

Some of my bikes are just superbad.

Aluminum and carbon frames have all of the soul of the "high tech" factories where they are stamped out.

Boooo. Boo hiss. My Basso is aluminum and I'd say it has even more personality ("soul" isn't something I'll give a bike, unless I start calling myself God because I built it) than my old steel frame. I like it better. It feels better under me. But then, this is just a stock, unending debate that I don't think we need to really delve into again.

Again, while I think maybe "soul" is the wrong word for it, I do think that there can be something more to something like a bike or what have you. To me, when it comes to manufacturered goods, that particular quality often comes out of the sort of process that produced it, as well as the intent behind the process. In my feeling, an injection-molded plastic cup at some local-economy-killing superstore isn't going to have the depth of personality and intrinsic quality to it that, say, one of these (http://www.2000cranes.com/artists_Suzuki/items/TS209.htm) would.

It's all so subjective, though. It's the kind of thing that you could argue about all day and never come to an agreement on (not that this is stopping me from arguing anyway).

You can argue all day things like that steel frames and things like that have more soul than an AL or C frameset might, but I say that's bull. That deeper characteristic and value arent things that can be applied like a swath of paint to some broad category. So someone likes the feel of steel. That's fine. I like the feel of aluminum, and so it has more value, more "soul" to me. But even that's not enough to explain the personality of something like a bike. My bike has personality and value to me not just because it's light and responsive and such (though that certainly doesn't hurt), but because I built it myself and everything about it reflects me.

So yeah....my answer is a conditional and slightly cranky yes.

The soul is in the ride and how the rider,bike and trail(or road) flow together.I watch water roll down the rocks of a river,that is how I want my bike to roll down the trail.There will be bikes that we love to ride but how that bike is ridden is where the soul comes from.

Go back to bed BB :D

I find a couple of interesting notions floating around in this thread.

First of all, I don't believe a bike has soul. I agree with others who say that it can have a personality. The perceived soul of the bike is IMHO the reaction one gets from riding it. It is primarily a byproduct of the rider's feelings for the bike.

Secondly, I think that while there are many production frames which are robotically welded, that doesn't necessarily mean they are without personality. A bike's personality is itself a byproduct of what it's been through... and that's not just its production but also its use. Sure they may not all be different in the beginning but eventually they will attain their own uniqueness through the owner(s) and the "time" they've been subjected.

Additionally, some of you need to read up on how carbon fibre bikes are produced. Many of them (especially the really high quality ones) are not "stamped out" in factories. Rather they are handmade and each sheet is layed up by a human being in an anologous manner to someone welding a steel frame. Fabricating a CF bike is kind of a combination of cooking/baking and dressmaking. A lot of manual skill and labour is involved in producing a carbon frame by hand and this primarily is why they are as expensive as they are. Just because it's high-tech does not mean there's no craftsmanship involved. As a matter of fact, the most high-tech pieces of equipment you'll find in the world are often produced with a very high-degree of manual craftsmanship. Many things that are technologically advanced are often handmade.

Nope. Sorry. If there is any hunk of machinery that will eventually develop a soul it will be the computer.

If you have Windows installed on your computer then does that mean it's possessed?
:eek:

There are many cultures that believe that everything has a spirit, ki,chi,prana,force,whatever. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes you got a work at finding/melding with it. Sometimes a bit is borrowed from the craftsman that made it, sometimes a bit is borrowed from the rider.

If you have Windows installed on your computer then does that mean it's possessed?
:eek: No but Bill Gates certainly is. He's possessed by greed.


There are many cultures that believe that everything has a spirit, ki,chi,prana,force,whatever ... Yes I know. And they're all wrong too. Rocks and trees don't have souls. What a bunch of hooey.

My bikes have soul and former lives and future lives.
Actually, all my "stuff" has to have soul.
If it didn't, how could I possibly build an identity around it?

:rolleyes:

Go back to bed BB :DMe thinks he's been readin' some books 'bout spritual enlightenment lately. Some new age rubbish at that. :D

Go back to bed BB :D

I can't find it. Can I borrow your GPS device?

Tell me where you are and I'll post you directions.

On a side note, if inanimate objects have souls then shouldn't they be accorded rights and priveleges?

Yes I know. And they're all wrong too. Rocks and trees don't have souls. What a bunch of hooey.

To me, that negates yourself having one. Soul perhaps is a 'Term of choice' in that it has the ability to respond, or make choices.

Why in the chem substrate does a Nautilus shell decide to make a perfect spiral?
http://www.nexusjournal.com/Sharp_v4n1-pt04.html
Trees respond to stimulus, rocks grow crystal lattices from matrix and vibrate.

Life or 'animation' does not make something able to become aware of directions that an object can travel.

Some objects are more animated than others, Existentialism dealt with this somewhat.

Writer Sartre's 'Nausea' and 'Being and nothingness' are good works.
Also, Buddism, Totemism and many 'occult' religeons impart a value to objects by the power they enable the culture that uses them.

An
+ Icon for example.

Bla.

"Yes I know. And they're all wrong too. Rocks and trees don't have souls. What a bunch of hooey."

In Japan you would be blind to order and chaos that makes the soul visable. Garden and you'll see.
Rocks dislike being moved...plants too, unless a nicer position towards the sun.

A plant can grow towards the light, but not direct the condition of it's seed fall. Chance.
Metal grain is 'trained' to line up.

I've met animals that were\are warriors. Not every animal\ plant has potential.
Potential is cultivated.
re: Buckmaster Fuller carbons and geo design.

To me, that negates yourself having one. Soul perhaps is a 'Term of choice' in that it has the ability to respond, or make choices.

Why in the chem substrate does a Nautilus shell decide to make a perfect spiral?
http://www.nexusjournal.com/Sharp_v4n1-pt04.html
Trees respond to stimulus, rocks grow crystal lattices from matrix and vibrate.

Life or 'animation' does not make something able to become aware of directions that an object can travel.

Some objects are more animated than others, Extra-extensionalism dealt with this somewhat.

Writer Sartre's 'Nausea' and 'Being and nothingness' are good works.
Also, Buddism, Totemism and many 'occult' religeons impart a value to objects by the power they enable the culture that uses them.

An
+ Icon for example.

Bla.

"Yes I know. And they're all wrong too. Rocks and trees don't have souls. What a bunch of hooey."

In Japan you would be blind to order and chaos that makes the soul visable. Garden and you'll see.Hmmmmm. When you get done with that pipe, could you pass it my way? I want to try some of what you're smokin' ! ;)

Tao. Good tea.
Tondena rum and Barqs rootbeer.

My Klein is newer but the frame is supposedly hand crafted in Wisconsin..That might impart soul.

Hmmmmm. When you get done with that pipe, could you pass it my way? I want to try some of what you're smokin' ! ;)

Funny. Maybe your bikes have no soul...do you have a soul?
Have you incarnated and have memories?

A Schwinn reborn as a Bianchi butterfly?

An artist who crafts with love may impart some of the essence of his soul into his works.

But the soul you feel, in the presence of this piece is an empathy with this essence that your own soul expresses.

You don't have a soul, you are one. Bikes have individual distinctions and can stir our memories/fantasies but they aren't alive.

As the Blues Brothers' bikes would have soul, definitely.

Wow,this is getting deep. :)

Wow,this is getting deep. :)Deep is right. Now where did I put those boots? :D I think that bong's made it everywhere but my way. You guys need to quit boggartin'!!

Well i guess it can. I think a bike that you made yourself, in the sence that you put it together and build it all from scratch, makes a difference. Handbuilt by a familiar gives it soul. I don't believe just a bike you pick up like any other, like some of these trek bikes which probably have 10,000 exact copies have soul

Well i guess it can. I think a bike that you made yourself, in the sence that you put it together and build it all from scratch, makes a difference. Handbuilt by a familiar gives it soul. I don't believe just a bike you pick up like any other, like some of these trek bikes which probably have 10,000 exact copies have soulBut if some evil genius were to clone you and make 10,000 exact copies wouldn't they all have souls provided the original template (you) did?

In the immortal words of Marvin Martian ... "Hmmmmmmmm, could be!"

On a side note, if inanimate objects have souls then shouldn't they be accorded rights and priveleges?

QUIET HD!!!

Great...I live in CA. Now I'm going to get sued by my computer for mental anguish.

QUIET HD!!!

Great...I live in CA. Now I'm going to get sued by my computer for mental anguish.

Look at it this way... it can work both ways. You could sue your computer for the same reasons.

QUIET HD!!!

Great...I live in CA. Now I'm going to get sued by my computer for mental anguish.Califonia would certainly be the place to adopt such a law. That's for sure. Soon you'll not only have a "recycling" tax on your computer but will also have a "pain and suffering" tax!! Nancy Pelosi would love that one wouldn't she?

My favorite bike, the spray-painted black LeTour with one 700c and one 27" wheel with cyclocross tyres, most definitely has a soul!

My first bike helped me understand what I was about. We spent so much time together, so many miles, the things we've seen. That seat has moulded to fit my cheeks. It's was part of me. Any sense of confidence I felt as a teenager came directly from riding. There's an undeniable bond - when I screamed, it screamed back. How can it not have some soul of it's own, being such a part of mine for so long.

I'm sorry. What a load of crap. I just finished a 750 of some bizzaro belgiun ale and I'm getting all sappy. The bike belongs in the trash and it's time for me to step up and get a new ride. Time to replace the 9 yr old VDub too, who am I kidding? I spend money on cameras and don't have a decent rider to get me there. Go figure.

But if some evil genius were to clone you and make 10,000 exact copies wouldn't they all have souls provided the original template (you) did?

In the immortal words of Marvin Martian ... "Hmmmmmmmm, could be!"

Man...you are harshing my mellow. My stupid bike is handmade, a prototype and one off.

How souled do you need?

My build # is 035. Handbuilt by a master framebuilder.

Man...you are harshing my mellow. My stupid bike is handmade, a prototype and one off.

How souled do you need?

My build # is 035. Handbuilt by a master framebuilder.
Sorry Mr. Williams, however, you lost me when you stated this ... "Also, Buddism, Totemism and many 'occult' religeons impart a value to objects by the power they enable the culture that uses them." Some of the Native American tribes also have such beliefs as do many Gypsies, witch doctors and flower children of the 60's.

Just because a culture believes something to be true doesn't make it so no matter how hard they wish it. For centuries the Europeans believed the world was flat and that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Science has proven them wrong. However, it was very ingrained into their culture at the time. So much so in fact that a guy named Copernicus was guilty of blasphemy and burned at the stake when he stated that the Sun was the center of the Universe. The Europeans were wrong and so is any culture that believes that inanimate objects have a soul.

Rocks and twigs do not have a soul any more than my breakfast cereal. :D

I'd like to also point out that there is a big discrepancy in the very make up of this thread. The thread is titled "Can a Bike Have Soul?", but in his first post BlackBerry asks "could a bicycle be said to have a soul?". These are two very different questions. The answer to the latter is an obvious and emphatic NO. No a bike cannot have a soul. It may, however, have soul as as in James "I feel good" Brown is the Godfather of soul or soul in the form of pride that a person(s) has for something. I certainly am not insulting your ride as many (most) cyclists take much pride in their metallurgical or carbon fiber wonders. I happen to be very fond of my souless steeds as well.

Does that help? Now, on to something completely different ... :D

If it can be said that I have a soul and I were cloned exactly by some evil genius, then would my clones/exact copies have a soul as well? Most likely they would, provided the process were not too different from C:\>XCOPY A: B: /U If A is equal to B, and B is equal to C, then A has to equal C. They would all have souls.

Will computers eventually have souls? Provided they keep doubling in power every approx 18 months it may be possible for them to eventually become self-aware and as such, develop a soul. Note I'm not saying that it will happen but that it could happen. Two very different statements. Do I think something like this is right around the corner? Nope. Not even. But maybe in 500 to 1,000 years. However, by then we as a species won't be anything like we currently are either. The DNA genie is out of the bag and that is right around the corner.

The whole notion of a soul is mysticism anyway. It's based on religious beliefs and people's often misguided feelings.

Don't worry about it Jeff. Ash must be one of those folks that think science has the answers for everything. :roflmao:

Oh, and here you go.....I think the bowls fried man :rolleyes:

critical mass

Sorry Mr. Williams, however, you lost me when you stated this ... "Also, Buddism, Totemism and many 'occult' religeons impart a value to objects by the power they enable the culture that uses them." Some of the Native American tribes also have such beliefs as do many Gypsies, witch doctors and flower children of the 60's.

Just because a culture believes something to be true doesn't make it so no matter how hard they wish it. For centuries the Europeans believed the world was flat and that the Earth was the center of the Universe. Science has proven them wrong. However, it was very ingrained into their culture at the time. So much so in fact that a guy named Copernicus was guilty of blasphemy and burned at the stake when he stated that the Sun was the center of the Universe. The Europeans were wrong and so is any culture that believes that inanimate objects have a soul.

Rocks and twigs do not have a soul any more than my breakfast cereal. :D

I'd like to also point out that there is a big discrepancy in the very make up of this thread. The thread is titled "Can a Bike Have Soul?", but in his first post BlackBerry asks "could a bicycle be said to have a soul?". These are two very different questions. The answer to the latter is an obvious and emphatic NO. No a bike cannot have a soul. It may, however, have soul as as in James "I feel good" Brown is the Godfather of soul or soul in the form of pride that a person(s) has for something. I certainly am not insulting your ride as many (most) cyclists take much pride in their metallurgical or carbon fiber wonders. I happen to be very fond of my souless steeds as well.

Does that help? Now, on to something completely different ... :D

If it can be said that I have a soul and I were cloned exactly by some evil genius, then would my clones/exact copies have a soul as well? Most likely they would, provided the process were not too different from C:\>XCOPY A: B: /U If A is equal to B, and B is equal to C, then A has to equal C. They would all have souls.

Will computers eventually have souls? Provided they keep doubling in power every approx 18 months it may be possible for them to eventually become self-aware and as such, develop a soul. Note I'm not saying that it will happen but that it could happen. Two very different statements. Do I think something like this is right around the corner? Nope. Not even. But maybe in 500 to 1,000 years. However, by then we as a species won't be anything like we currently are either. The DNA genie is out of the bag and that is right around the corner.

The whole notion of a soul is mysticism anyway. It's based on religious beliefs and people's often misguided feelings.
You have taken this thread to the next level.

Man am I glad I am not religious. My bike has soul. Period. I have faith in that ;)

Bike = Soul = Yes.

Depends on the care with which it was built.