Advocacy & Safety - What is it about getting behind the wheel of a car...

in America (or anywhere, for that matter) that makes some people behave like jerks?


It only takes a few...if we could answer this question I think it would make a lot of the other discussions here more or less irrelevant, and go a long ways towards a solution to safely sharing our public roads...

They don't turn into jerks when they get in a car. They're jerks already.

I question the use of the word "some". I would think "most" is better.

I've just spent two weekends driving around in a borrowed work car organising Bike Week events (gasp and horror at the oxymoronic thought, but practicality wins out over principle).

I couldn't get out of the crewcab pick-up quickly enough. My back hurt, my breathing suffered, I put on over four pounds in weight, I found myself cursing other road users (for the same thoughtless they show when I am riding a bike), and there seems to be so much MORE traffic here than I remember the last time I drove (nine months ago).

One positive thing I did notice, I suppose, was the volume of traffic resulted in slower speeds, even on 100km/h limited roads (80km/h seemed to be the norm).

I also had to chuckle when a colleague who had driven from an outer suburb to the centre of the city for a bike breakfast, said it took him over half an hour. His origin was right next door to the main cycling corridor in this city. It would have taken me less time to ride door-to-door.

They don't turn into jerks when they get in a car. They're jerks already.

Yeah, jerks in control of 2,000 pounds of steel.

I disagree. I think that most car drivers are not intentionally jerks. I do think that many folks become innattentive, confused, distracted, which can give the impression of being a jerk.

Al

Yeah, jerks in control of 2,000 pounds of steel.


More like 3500-6000 pounds. Big SUV's and cargo vans can hit 8000 or so. Not to mention commercial vehicles....

"Can you name the truck with 4-wheel drive?
Smells like a steak, and seats 35!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well it goes real slow with the hammer down
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown
Canyonero! Canyonero! - Hey Hey!
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide
Sixty-five tons of American pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports!
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
She blinds everybody with her super-high beams!
She's a squirrel-squashing deer-smackin' drivin' machine
Canyonero! Canyonero! Canyonero! Whoa Canyonero, Whoa!"

-- The Simpsons

What is it about getting behind the wheel of a car...

I've always found this pretty tricky, you really gotta work hard to match their acceleration off the line, but once you're tucked in nice behind em you can make really good time. Oh wait, I must be in the wrong forum...
:p

My theory: they're dumb and lazy. But that doesn't mean we can descriminate. Lazy dumb people have rights too.

I disagree. I think that most car drivers are not intentionally jerks. I do think that many folks become innattentive, confused, distracted, which can give the impression of being a jerk.

Al
Maybe you drive in Podunk, USA..But in busy urban areas, about 1/3 of them are suicidal nut jobs...So, well-guess that means a majority of them are ok...I do not necessarily post this as a cyclists , but also as a motorist...2000 lbs steel crashing into my Jetta is not that much different than while on the bike..
what is the hurry in all that lane changing and illegal passing just to get to a red light before the rest..But,then who let red lights stop about 5% of all motorists...from a personal perspective..Driving is no longer fun..Since you have to worry about speed demons and nut cases...Like to think people are not automatically like that..Road rage is caused by disfunctional highways, that get you nowhere fast..

Maybe you drive in Podunk, USA..But in busy urban areas, about 1/3 of them are suicidal nut jobs...So, well-guess that means a majority of them are ok...I do not necessarily post this as a cyclists , but also as a motorist...2000 lbs steel crashing into my Jetta is not that much different than while on the bike..
what is the hurry in all that lane changing and illegal passing just to get to a red light before the rest..But,then who let red lights stop about 5% of all motorists...from a personal perspective..Driving is no longer fun..Since you have to worry about speed demons and nut cases...Like to think people are not automatically like that..Road rage is caused by disfunctional highways, that get you nowhere fast..
I'm not sure that Phoenix, AZ would count as podunk given its the 5th largest city in the US. ;) Near-daily new stories are about red-light runners (one of the worst cities for that), highway deaths, agressive and criminal driving, road rage, etc. All those things you list above.

But I don't believe that it is because most people are jerks - actually it sounds like we agree. I also like you find that the problems are far more notable when you are also in a car compared to when you are on a bicycle.

Al

I'm not sure that Phoenix, AZ would count as podunk given its the 5th largest city in the US. ;) Near-daily new stories are about red-light runners (one of the worst cities for that), highway deaths, agressive and criminal driving, road rage, etc. All those things you list above.

But I don't believe that it is because most people are jerks - actually it sounds like we agree. I also like you find that the problems are far more notable when you are also in a car compared to when you are on a bicycle.

Al

BTW Phoenix is the 6th largest city... as of 2002... I was actually quite surprised by this, as I thought San Diego was the 6th... but apparently more people prefer the desert than the beach. I checked this at several 'net sites. in 1990, Phoenix was down about 9th or so... thus has made rapid climbs in recent years... perhaps more afforable housing?

This whole issue of bad drivers doesn't surprise me... but it seems our local EC advocate doesn't notice it all... Since a number of sites on the net and the presence of armed road rage incidents still exist, I use this evidence as an indicator that maybe some folks just have a hard time with real facts at hand.

ooops, I actually checked:
http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/US.htm
before I posted but counted wrong, duh.

Al

This whole issue of bad drivers doesn't surprise me... but it seems our local EC advocate doesn't notice it all... Since a number of sites on the net and the presence of armed road rage incidents still exist, I use this evidence as an indicator that maybe some folks just have a hard time with real facts at hand.

I don't find a conflict between EC and bad drivers. The danger they create is not worsened by EC, but actually improved if anything. Bad drivers tend to be the agressive go fast kind or the inattentive. The fast ones don't like the outside lane and they like being 'racer' aware of what is in front of them. The run red lights, they swerve thru traffic, etc. The inattentive ones will become more attentive of you if they see you coming before making a right turn in front of you. I believe that being more visible and being clear about intention actually is better than hugging the curb and making yourself invisible.

Al

I don't find a conflict between EC and bad drivers. The danger they create is not worsened by EC, but actually improved if anything. Bad drivers tend to be the agressive go fast kind or the inattentive. The fast ones don't like the outside lane and they like being 'racer' aware of what is in front of them. The run red lights, they swerve thru traffic, etc. The inattentive ones will become more attentive of you if they see you coming before making a right turn in front of you. I believe that being more visible and being clear about intention actually is better than hugging the curb and making yourself invisible.

Al

I agree with making yourself visable, but I also realize that these road kooks do exist... I also don't believe in hugging the curb... but I also believe that Bike Lanes can be helpful on roads over 45MPH. I also feel that some of these road kooks tend to be quite a bit more agressive to cyclists they feel are "in their way..." and their agressive driving behaviour can lead to accidents due to their manner of driving.

DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD ANOTHER EC DEBATE, PLEASE!!!!!

I suspect that the more a cyclist expects to be given special pedestrian-ish consideration by drivers (perhaps because he thinks of himself as a pedestrian who happens to be on a bicycle), the more drivers seem to act like jerks.

I know this drives Gene nuts, but since I learned to ride vehicularly consistently, all the "jerk" drivers have seemed to disappear. Or maybe they just don't bother me anymore, because I no longer feel threatened by them? That's probably it. I feel like I'm in control in traffic, and am not at the mercy of anyone but myself. So what do I care if they act like jerks? For me, it's no longer an issue.



It only takes a few...if we could answer this question I think it would make a lot of the other discussions here more or less irrelevant, and go a long ways towards a solution to safely sharing our public roads...
The solution lies within each individual cyclist (and driver, for that matter). You too can make the significance of the jerks vanish: Drive and cycle vehicularly and defensively...

DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD ANOTHER EC DEBATE, PLEASE!!!!!

Nice try... :rolleyes:

in America (or anywhere, for that matter) that makes some people behave like jerks?

Cars are the ultimate equalizers. People who feel suppressed or inadequate in other aspects of their lives feel liberated to finally behave assertively when enclosed in 2 tons of steel.

It's very helpful to realize this, because the next step is to see that this explains why drivers are like dogs... if you act like like the Alpha, they'll treat you like the Alpha (2 tons of steel or not).

Remember: 98% of Drivers rate themselves as at least "Above Average".

I got that off another reply on this forum and use it because it sounds fairly accurate to me. Of that 98% I'd say at least 30% are distracted, self absorbed or just not paying attention on any given point A to point B trip. Another 10% are just plain stupid.

I agree with making yourself visable, but I also realize that these road kooks do exist... I also don't believe in hugging the curb... but I also believe that Bike Lanes can be helpful on roads over 45MPH. I also feel that some of these road kooks tend to be quite a bit more agressive to cyclists they feel are "in their way..." and their agressive driving behaviour can lead to accidents due to their manner of driving.
Gene - you didn't say anything about bike lanes, you said that EC folks don't notice bad drivers. I use effective cycling techniques because there are bad drivers.

With a WOL you are not in anyone's way, but on their visual radar. With a BL you are mentally invisible.

Al

I look at it this way, there are only 10% are jerks, but they find me all at once!!! Just look mean and then some of them will back off, but just take care!

TrikeMan

DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD ANOTHER EC DEBATE, PLEASE!!!!!
Too late!

waht the shizzle is EC?

a car's interior is pretty much removed from the rest of the world, it's a private space. when in a car, you have a seperation from the rest of the world that can make some people act very selfishly. most people behave very differently walking down the sidewalk than they do in a car.

To answer the original question, my theory is that it's the insulation from the outside. They don't feel the wind or rain on their faces, they don't feel the heat or cold, they don't hear the birds or even the revs of their engines, they don't feel the roughness or smoothness of the road. They are totally disconnected from the street except for the view through their windshields, as if they were to watch it on TV.

Which is why it is so easy for them to honk, rev their engines, swerve at you as just another annoyance and hindrance, rather than a fellow traveler and human being. And which is why, when you catch up to them at the light, tap on their windows, and ask what the problem is?, they usually act quite shocked.

[ahh! got beaten to it!]

[ahh! got beaten to it!]

you put it well though. i really believe it's the disconnect that causes most it. it's the same with domestic issues. when people retreat from the public and enter their own world, some pretty ugly behviour can surface: all from pretty "normal" looking people.

There's an Infiniti ad that shows a kid in a living room looking out the window and the trees are moving by. I guess it's supposed to show how luxurious this vehicle is, that you feel like you're sitting on your favorite couch, maybe drinking cocoa and reading a book (!), as the world slides by. I hate that ad.

And since I've started riding, I find myself driving with all the windows and the sunroof open, even in the dead of winter so I can hear and smell the outside. I find myself wondering why convertibles aren't more popular. I wonder if Honda would ever make a ragtop Odyssey so I when I'm forced to cart my kids around, they can at least have the sun and wind in their hair.

There's a [car] ad...
Don't get me started about television car advertisements. They mostly glorify the worst aspects of consumer culture, motorized power, dangerous, harmful and disrepectful behavior.

Al

I find myself driving with all the windows and the sunroof open, even in the dead of winter
I haven't used the perfectly working A/C in my car for a bit over 3yrs, except when transporting guests or friends. Keep in mind it can get to 120dF in the summer here. I do this for similar reasons as you stated, but also to avoid the hot/cold cycle of in/out of car and have acclimatized so that I enjoy being outside and exercising when it is 110.

Al

waht the shizzle is EC?

First, my apologies for bringing it up into this thread... My intention was to point out to Serge, the king of the EC mantra, that poor drivers exist everywhere no matter what he seems to think. This thread touches on this sad fact of everyday commuting.

EC is Effective Cycling and those that advocate the "word" of John Forester... and the abolishing of all bike lanes.

EC is basically Vehicular Cycling taken to extremes...

Do a web search for Effective Cycling and Vehicular Cycling to get more info...

I am actually tired of the whole bike lane arguement, and note with particular spiteful pleasure that the very town in which John Forester of EC fame lives, has added bike lanes during the time since he has moved in... and these are particularly poorly designed bike lanes... put right into the automobile door zone. No doubt his "evangelical style" rubbed somebody the wrong way. This little city never even foot the bill for sidewalks. :D

you put it well though. i really believe it's the disconnect that causes most it. it's the same with domestic issues. when people retreat from the public and enter their own world, some pretty ugly behviour can surface: all from pretty "normal" looking people.

They're so isolated they think they're in the bathroom, apparently. Damn, I've never seen so many compulsive nosepickers as when stopped at a light...and don't get me started about drivers pissing in bottles, or blessing the asphalt with a loogie so phlegmatic that they feel the need to open the door...

I love this city!

EC is Effective Cycling and those that advocate the "word" of John Forester... and the abolishing of all bike lanes.

EC is basically Vehicular Cycling taken to extremes...

Do a web search for Effective Cycling.

I wasn't totally aware (or at least haven't been sucked into) the personal issues/politics surrounding this. I guess I had been using EC/VC interchangably and consider the BL debate to be a separate issue.

Thats why I will say I ride VC or practice EC because the principles makes logical sense and hopefully no one will think I'm some nut because of the associations or baggage that goes along with it.

Al

Yeah, us cyclists don't need to pick since were spraying so much snot out of noses. Not to mention the quarts of spit I lauch in a 360 deg arc around me.

Al

I wasn't totally aware (or at least haven't been sucked into) the personal issues/politics surrounding this. I guess I had been using EC/VC interchangably and consider the BL debate to be a separate issue.

Thats why I will say I ride VC or practice EC because the principles makes logical sense and hopefully no one will think I'm some nut because of the associations or baggage that goes along with it.

Al

Forester is against Bike Lanes... as are many other strict advocates of EC... Serge takes it to the extreme of a religious war.

I ride VC and have done for years... most long experienced cyclists do. But I also enjoy the use of BL when they are available. I don't think VC excludes bike lane use. I do avoid sidewalks however... in spite of mentioning their use once, and I am not too keen on multi-use paths either... glorified park sidewalks. Now on the flip side, I do think that many bike lanes are poorly designed... and that is the perhaps the reason that some have a anti-BL mentality... But I have ridden on some beautiful ones too... so I cannot dismiss ALL BL. I do think their use on residental streets is a waste of paint.

But this is off track, and I again apologize for thread hijacking. I only posted this here to respond to Al.

And now, back to the regular thread...

So I saw this van this afternoon... driver was obviously lost... blinker on one way, turning the other... from the middle of the road...

And I agree with what your thoughts on VC and BLs. But while Serge may be against BLs, he does seem open to WOL (which I find to be the perferred solution.) From what I gather, I don't think that being open to WOLs makes one 'religiously' for 'Forrester' EC. But I lack background on this.

I also agree that this is not the place to continue the endless, but sometimes interesting, EC, VC, WOL, BL discussion.

Al

it is easy to punch a pedestrian in the face. it is a little harder to punch a cyclist in the face, but easy when they are stopped. it is harder to punch a driver in the face. there is a wall of glass between. there is also a wall of glass to separate you while playing video games and watching tv. there is also a wall of glass and much separation using an online forum. very difficult to punch a forum member in the face.
so to sum up, the less likely it is to get punched in the face, the easier it is to be aggresive and tough.

please don't punch me in the face. it hurts.