Advocacy & Safety - Child dies in crash

http://www.flatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050325/NEWS01/503250338/1006

Two girls get hit by car riding bikes to school. One dies. No helmets worn. Happened at a sidewalk crossing with lots of morning traffic.

Sad to see this happen to anyone.

d.tipton

not a surprise though

Yes a sad story. They were biking through a crosswalk and from my skimming of the article it appears they used the signal. Sounds like they would have been hit if they had been pedestrians going through that crosswalk. Young children and adults get hit while going through crosswalks several times a year here. A crossing guard and aggressive enforcement of the laws already on the books, which I am sure is already sufficient, would help.

This sounds like a typical case of a distracted, inattentive motorist. As long as our legal system continues to take its current "well shucks, accidents happen" attitude, there will be no true accountability for drivers. If my reading of the sketchy story is correct, the motorist did run a red light or perhaps turned right on red without properly yielding to the girls, and should be charged with vehicular manslaughter. Some community service and a lengthy license suspension would be in order, but I anticipate probation instead, particularly since this happened in Florida, one of the deadliest states in the Union (or Confederacy, for that matter :) ) for pedestrians and bicyclists.

She died of a head injury and no helmet was being worn. Would it have helped? I don't know. Would it have hurt? Not likely. It's a shame.

That's about all that needs to be said about that.

The one car-bike accident I winessed in which a child was hit, the child (a young teen) was completely at fault. That being said, the students need to complete a bicycle safety course before they are allowed to ride to school. Simple. We had to take one! Most children are completely oblivious that any safety rules apply to them, and that's just being a kid. If education saves one child it's worth the money. Shoot, I do it for free every year with Scouts.

Also, as for crossing guards, up to how far away from schools do we need to place them? Two blocks, two miles? Where do we determine that it's just not worth it?

Of course I'm playing devils advocate. It's very easy for us on this forum to assume the car is a fault, considering our perspective. I would be very interested at reading the final report on this accident.

If my reading of the sketchy story is correct, the motorist did run a red light or perhaps turned right on red without properly yielding to the girls, and should be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

In New York City, the driver would have been found guilty because it is illegal to turn right on a red light. In fact, turning right on red is the same as cutting a red light! This law prevents thousands of accidents and saves countless lives in the city. If this traffic law had been standard accross the nation, these poor girls would be alive today.

It´s just the cost of doing business. Its far more important that people get to work on time.

No amount of helmet wearing or crossing guards or vehicular cycling or accident investigation reports or anything else will stop these deaths.

You just have to hope that its someone else´s kids tomorrow.

Usually it will be so that´s OK.. isn´t it?.

This is off topic, but there's something bothering me here...

When I originaly logged on this morning, I accidently logged in under my son's account. My post originally responded to another member's post. When I realized I was not "eubi", I logged out so you could flame the proper person.

When I logged in as eubi and returned to this thread, the post I had originally responded to was gone. I have no ignore list. Moderator did you take it off? I thought he had a good point, even though I didn't agree with it and was ready to drive a truck through his logic...

What was the good point?

How could you drive a truck though the logic of a good point?

What's so tragic about this death is it was so preventable and predictable. Children of that age have an inability to handle common traffic problems. They need supervision and guidence on the way to school. They had none. Every year collisions like this happen with similar results. They can be prevented. This wasn't because someone thought adult guidence to school wasn't necessary.

That said, accidents happen every day to everyone and nothing will stop 'em all. I would hope people feel children deserve a little extra care and attention from adults to avoid accidents from happening to them until they develop enough maturity to handle risks on their own. 9 and 10 years olds don't have that maturity.

OK, closetbiker is back! Where did you go? Why is your first post missing?

I was just wondering if you read the article. Your post led me to believe you didn't.

I don't want to debate helmets. It's an endless thread where neither your nor my mind will be changed. We'll just have to agree to disagree and let everyone else make up their minds.

Turning right on red is legal here in California only after you come to a full stop. However daily, I see cars making right turns on red after bairly slowing down.

This sounds like a typical case of a distracted, inattentive motorist. As long as our legal system continues to take its current "well shucks, accidents happen" attitude, there will be no true accountability for drivers. If my reading of the sketchy story is correct, the motorist did run a red light or perhaps turned right on red without properly yielding to the girls, and should be charged with vehicular manslaughter. Some community service and a lengthy license suspension would be in order, but I anticipate probation instead, particularly since this happened in Florida, one of the deadliest states in the Union (or Confederacy, for that matter :) ) for pedestrians and bicyclists.


It probably was a distracted motorist, and I'm not going to downplay the tragedy of this accident, but accidents do happen. Instead of assigning absolute and total blame and punishment on the driver (or whoever commited the sin of making a mistake), it would be better to focus on ways to lessen the probability of things like this occuring.

I like the NYC traffic rule. But, more importantly, I think that at 9 and 10 the girls were too young to be riding unsupervised.

At a more basic level, things like this would not be so common if there were better urban planning and if walkability and multimode transport were an integral part of street design.

From FL Law: "Parents or guardians must not knowingly allow a child or minor ward to violate any provision of this section."

So from this, the parents could be held accountable under the law for allowing the children to ride without helmets. Should they be... I don't know. Seems like losing a child or having one in the hospital is punsihment enough. Hopefully others will learn from this.

But, more importantly, I think that at 9 and 10 the girls were too young to be riding unsupervised.



I have mixed feelings about that. I was begging my mother to let me walk the half mile to school when I was 7 or 8. She finally did let me start walking to school with my two younger sisters when I was 8 or 9 near the end of my third grade year. I had classmates who walked alone as well. In particular I remember a female classmate who walked with her little sister.

Now I must admit that was 20 years ago, on quieter streets and in a fairly nice neighborhood. There are dangers from child predators that we are more aware of these days that I definitely think any parent should take into consideration. But as far as the technicalities of walking or biking at a slow sidewalk pace to school, I don't see why any 9 or 10 year old shouldn't be able to handle that. I knew enough at 8 to only cross at the corners and to look both ways for traffic before crossing and that's exactly what my sisters and I did. There were no lights on my route and no crossing guard in one of the two route options. Perhaps if there had been a road as busy as the one these girls were crossing, my parents would have made me wait longer for that little bit of independence.

I have mixed feelings about that. I was begging my mother to let me walk the half mile to school when I was 7 or 8. She finally did let me start walking to school with my two younger sisters when I was 8 or 9 near the end of my third grade year. I had classmates who walked alone as well. In particular I remember a female classmate who walked with her little sister.
....

I had the same type of experiences. I was allowed to walk to school alone in first grade (in the 70's). But the whole landscape was different. I was in an old-city environment, walking through alleys and residential streets. There were no 5-lane each way roads where I lived. It sad, but people expect kids to be driven to school these days.

She died of head injuries. These were probably caused by being knocked off her bicycle and hitting her head on the road when she fell. This is the sort of injury where a bike helmet gives good protection. It is also safer to walk across pedestrian crossings at intersections, because a rolling bicycle can move into the driver's field of view too quickly to react in time.

What they really need cameras anywhere and stiff fines.

Motorist also deserves to go to jail. Accident my ****ing ass. More like IRRESPONSIBLE.

She died of head injuries. These were probably caused by being knocked off her bicycle and hitting her head on the road when she fell. This is the sort of injury where a bike helmet gives good protection. It is also safer to walk across pedestrian crossings at intersections, because a rolling bicycle can move into the driver's field of view too quickly to react in time.

It is safer to walk across intersections than ride. It's also better to look before you cross for motorists not paying attention and going through the intesection without stopping.

Many more pedestrians are regularily hit in intersection crosswalks by motorists and they too, die from head injuries. Is the problem any greater for cyclists?

I find that drivers give me more room when, as I walk through crosswalks, my house/car keys are in the hand facing the stopped cars held at drivers' eye height.

There was another incident in Florida, I think last September, where a driver ran a red light and struck and killed two pedestrians, sisters age 5 and 2. The driver has since turned herself in to face vehicular manslaughter charges. This may turn out that it might not be vehicular manslaughter, simply because under Florida law running a red light is not considered reckless driving and in order to be vehicular manslaughter reckless driving has to be proven.

The thing I don't understand at all is why isn't there an automatic, on the spot, vehicular manslaughter charge for cases like these and any time a driver does something illegal that kills somebody.

The vast majority of motor vehicle incidents are not accidents at all. They happen because one or more drivers were negligent.

How the **** is running a red light not reckless driving? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

I nearly was tagged crossing a street in a crosswalk two days ago. The driver was too busy looking for a break in traffic to notice that I had a walk signal. As an adult I could see that he wasn't aware I was about to cross. Sure enough, as I started to walk across he started to take his right. I was close enough to sharply hit his car with my hand.

I'm pretty sure from the face he made that he had wet himself.

If I was a kid my inherent trust in adults and the walk signal probably would have been an accident.

In some cities here, flags are provided at each side of the street. When you cross, you grab a flag. Seems to be a good idea, and relatively a cheap solution to the problem. Perhaps it should be mandatory near schools where guards can't be posted. Or heck, give all the kids walking or biking to school lanyards with whistles. Instruct them to blow like crazy when crossing or if they feel they're in danger.

Look at any intersection where right on red is legal and most people treat it as a yield.

There are dangers from child predators that we are more aware of these days that I definitely think any parent should take into consideration. But as far as the technicalities of walking or biking at a slow sidewalk pace to school, I don't see why any 9 or 10 year old shouldn't be able to handle that.

The chances of an abduction from child predators (not a family member) are extremely slim in comparrison to an accident happening to a child from a motor vehicle.

There are deaths of children every year caused by cars. Abductions from stangers are rare. Both threats should be enough to compell adults to take the time to go with their children to school. Walk, or ride your bike with them so they learn what to look out for and how to ride properly. Just putting a helmet on their heads and sending them on their way just doesn't cut it. That, all too often, ends in deaths.

In Denmark,the law requires the city council and the local police to make routes to school safe for 7-year olds to walk/cycle to school on their own.

How civilised is a country that doesn't?

In Denmark,the law requires the city council and the local police to make routes to school safe for 7-year olds to walk/cycle to school on their own.

How civilised is a country that doesn't?


I'm not sure we can use that logic in this case. Using the word "civilized" and mentioning U.S. drivers in the same sentence is grammatically incorrect. ;)

not a surprise though

Not a surprise. Florida has one of the highest death rates for pedestrians in the U.S. These kids were in a crosswalk, crossing with the light. Probably dosen't matter that they were on bikes.

This sounds like a typical case of a distracted, inattentive motorist. As long as our legal system continues to take its current "well shucks, accidents happen" attitude, there will be no true accountability for drivers. If my reading of the sketchy story is correct, the motorist did run a red light or perhaps turned right on red without properly yielding to the girls, and should be charged with vehicular manslaughter. Some community service and a lengthy license suspension would be in order, but I anticipate probation instead, particularly since this happened in Florida, one of the deadliest states in the Union...for pedestrians and bicyclists.


There was no crossing guard assigned to the intersection, and police were trying to figure out whether the driver who hit the children ran a red light. The girls -- both third-graders -- apparently didn't wear helmets, though children under 16 are required to.

Helmets have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TRAGEDY. I never wore a helmet as a third-grader, and I wear one now as a 45 year-old. But I know what a helmet is for, and it's not for stopping a car.

In Georgia, we occasionally have signs in the middle of the street at crosswalks that warn motorists that all motorists must stop for pedestrians in the crosswalk, it's THE LAW.

Helmets have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TRAGEDY.

Not only that, but by bringing up this point, there is a distraction of what the real issues are that led to the collision and blame of death is focused on the victim(s) rather than the perpertrater.

It probably was a distracted motorist, and I'm not going to downplay the tragedy of this accident, but accidents do happen. Instead of assigning absolute and total blame and punishment on the driver (or whoever commited the sin of making a mistake), it would be better to focus on ways to lessen the probability of things like this occuring.
I like the NYC traffic rule. But, more importantly, I think that at 9 and 10 the girls were too young to be riding unsupervised.

At a more basic level, things like this would not be so common if there were better urban planning and if walkability and multimode transport were an integral part of street design.
Assigning blame and punishment on drivers is the best way to lessen the probability of things like this occurring.

Perhaps the parents share some of the responsibility for letting the girls ride unsupervised. (OTH, if this was not a busy street, kids that age could ride safely alone.) Perhaps the "system" shares some responsibility if traffic laws or road design were inadequate. But the preponderance of guilt lies with a driver who is reckless enough to strike pedestrians. Judgment must be passed to deter others and to get this jerk off the road.

Wearing a helmet has a lot to do with this tragedy, because she died of head injury. It doesnt say if she hit her head on the car or on the road, but she surely hit her head and that is the sort of injury a helmet can reduce.

Wearing a helmet has a lot to do with this tragedy... that is the sort of injury a helmet can reduce.

The lack of a helmet has little to do with this tragedy because helmets are tested to a stress of 300 g's only (In Austraila the standard is 400 g's). Even Randy Swarts of the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute thinks this standard is too low. On the BHSI site its says, "bicycle helmets are tested in labs in impacts at 14 miles per hour...Research on crashed helmets shows that most people hit the ground at a relative speed of about 10 MPH. If a rider is hit by a car or hits a brick wall at 30 mph and the head takes a direct blow at that speed, no helmet will prevent injury or death." So it seems the claimed effectiveness of helmets in collisions with cars are based on an impact from that collision being under 14 mph. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest that helmets currently sold are designed to protect against minimum falls under ideal conditions for the helmets, not for real falls by human beings, and they are certainly not designed to protect against the cyclist being struck by a fast-moving motor vehicle, the cause of over 90% of all cyclist deaths.

Dr. Michael Schwartz, neurosurgeon and member of Canadian Standards Association Committee establishing helmet standards says, "... helmets will mitigate the effects of falling off your bicycle and striking your head... If a cyclist is accelerated by a car, then the helmet will not work and will not prevent a severe or even fatal injury"

Further, brain injuries can be either focal or diffuse. It is the diffuse brain injuries which are the most serious.

The brain is injured when it's constituent particles are pulled so far apart that they can not rejoin afterwards. Sudden rotation of the head was found to be the cause of most severe diffuse brain injuries such as contrecoup injuries, intracranial haemorrhages, and concussions. When rotational forces are applied, there is a change in the angular velocity of the brain and the skull. This results in diffuse shearing strains which can cause permanent displacement of matter throughout the entire brain. The irregular shape of the skull means that some parts of the brain fare worse than others.

Compression and rarefaction strains are not considered to be a cause of injury. Linear impacts were found to cause mainly only localised (focal) injury at the point of impact. These brain injuries were the result of deformation of the skull (with or without fracture) and were found to be mostly superficial. The impact causes shock waves to emanate back and forth within the brain. These shock waves are non-injurious as they do not cause permanent displacement of brain matter.

Head impacts from bicycle crashes do not generally involve a direct square-on impact. Most commonly there is an angled impact as the head hits the ground with forward momentum; or the windshield of a motor vehicle. Such an impact is likely to impart some degree of rotational force on the head and brain.

This is hardly recent research. It is knowledge which has been around since long before bicycle helmets came into popular use, and yet it is almost never mentioned by helmet researchers who perhaps have their own agenda in promoting helmets but disguising any possible adverse consequences.

Chief Pathologist Clive Cooke, said in an in Australian Court Testimony, "In situations of a fall they [helmets] are next to useless because they do not protect against diffused brain damage. The damage to the brain would still have occurred because it is the rattling inside the skull that caused the damage."

At the very least, by far, the easiest way this could have been prevented has very little to do with wearing a helmet. The car would have hit the kids weather they were wearing them or not.

The most effecective way to prevent injury is through collision avoidence, not by wearing something that has not been designed to protect against motor vehicle collisions.

From the look of the bikes, it might be that the car at least partially ran over the girls. It's interesting that the articles on bike accidents always include the blurb about wearing helmets, but make no mention of whether the vehicles windows were tinted, making it harder to see outside the vehicle, which is the main task in safely driving a vehicle.

Wearing a helmet has a lot to do with this tragedy, because she died of head injury. It doesnt say if she hit her head on the car or on the road, but she surely hit her head and that is the sort of injury a helmet can reduce.
I wonder how many pedestrians would be saved by wearing helmets. Probably a great deal.

If pedestrians would all start wearing helmets, motorists could relax.

I was just down in Florida (North Port) taking care of my recently deceased Father-in-Law and his affairs. I can say the people down there are downright ugly toward others! No patience at all! When I mentioned something to my better-half about the road raging all around us, she stated some of them will learn only after they kill a kid, and then they will wonder why it happened to them.

I remembered her saying this after I read, "The driver of the Pontiac Bonneville, 44-year-old Lydia Wright of Cocoa, was not hurt but was inconsolable at the scene and was taken to Wuesthoff Hospital in Rockledge." Oh why me?!! Well, lady, probably because you didn't clear the intersection, hang up your cell phone, put your lipstick away and your jelly donut before you ran over the two kids in the crosswalk! :mad: Now she can live with her guilt and poor driving judgment for the rest of her life...may it be a miserable one.

Looks to me like lack of helmet was irrelevent, but the story only stated that they weren't, it didn't assign blame of the accident of the death on the girls not having helmets. It actually looks to me like the bikes were irrelevent, as others have said.

Crossing guards would help. We have a significant road here that the kids would have to cross, and for that reason, even though we are maybe 1/2 mile from the school, they provide bus service. My son, in middle school, would like to ride his bike, but again it's on a very busy road and the school has determined for safety reasons that the kids can't ride bikes to school. As cyclists, we may think that's silly, but being honest we have to concede that most adults don't know how to ride safely, and their children certainly don't.

I'm amazed at the lack of care cars show around me. When I ride a roadbike, I ride it on the road. I fare well when it comes to cars seeing me. When I ride bmx, I ride on the sidewalk. When I go through a crosswalk. If I dont make eye contact with whoever is turning right, I don't go. You would be shocked :eek: at the number of people who dont look right when making a right turn, not even once. They don't realize that someone could possibly be waiting to cross the street. When I'm in the middle of the intersection crossing from the opposite side, people almost always cut me off turning on red. The sad part is I live in a suburban community full of kids that love to ride thier bicycles. :( Also, I think not wearing a helmet isn' t the cause of her death. I've cracked agresive helmets(the ones for skateparks) on hard hits to the head, but I don't think those hits even compare to being hit by a car.

Crossing guards would help. We have a significant road here that the kids would have to cross, and for that reason, even though we are maybe 1/2 mile from the school, they provide bus service. My son, in middle school, would like to ride his bike, but again it's on a very busy road and the school has determined for safety reasons that the kids can't ride bikes to school. As cyclists, we may think that's silly, but being honest we have to concede that most adults don't know how to ride safely, and their children certainly don't.

On a related note, I read recently that statistically the absolutely safest way for kids to get to school is by school bus. The worst way: their parents' car. The risk is not so much crashing en route as it is running over a schoolmate. On a typical morning, most of the parents and most of the kids are hurrying, and you get a traffic jam of impatient people at the school, with kids darting around in between. Often the traffic affects other drivers as well, and they get impatient too. It's a recipe for disaster.

If you've ever seen dropoff or pickup time at a school you know what I mean. I pass a couple of private schools on my way to and from work, and I hate to go near them on my bike when there are parents around. "Distracted" doesn't begin to describe them.

No kidding. I've had to drop mine of once or twice, and it's insane! They all think they have to get their kid as close to the door as possible, resulting in a let of people hurrying , backwards, while others are trying to fill the gap that doesn't exist yet. It's not like their kids couldn't use a little more of a walk, know what I mean? Then there's the idiots keeping their little darlings warm (or cool) at the bus stop, they are like a damn pack of hyenas, doing the same thing, and slowing the bus down. Then they wait for them after school, I turn into the street and there's some moron sitting there facing the wrong way and stopped, waiting to drive their kid 200 yards home.
Makes me ill.

Assigning blame and punishment on drivers is the best way to lessen the probability of things like this occurring.

Perhaps the parents share some of the responsibility for letting the girls ride unsupervised. (OTH, if this was not a busy street, kids that age could ride safely alone.) Perhaps the "system" shares some responsibility if traffic laws or road design were inadequate. But the preponderance of guilt lies with a driver who is reckless enough to strike pedestrians. Judgment must be passed to deter others and to get this jerk off the road.


I mostly agree.

But of course, virtually everyone who drives breaks traffic laws occasionally. All of us have run stop signs / red lights. We have all speeded, driven to fast for conditions, etc. In other words I think that all drivers are capable of doing the same thing as the woman who hit those kids. If she blew the stop light, she clearly is at fault and should face the penalty. But no matter how severe her punishment is, it won't change the way people drive.

To some extent, our safety and the safety of others depends on the good design of traffic engineers and urban planners.

All I'm saying is that there are other factors at work here. Punishing _only_ the woman at fault won't improve the situation.

The driver should be fully prosecuted for at least vehicular manslaughter. Accidents do not happen - there is always fault except here in the good ol USofA where we do not have to accept the consequences of our own actions when convenient. In Europe the driver would be charged with a form of murder. That would get the inattentive cell phone yacking idiots to wake up. What a shame to have a young girl killed under these circumstances.

People in Europe don't use cell phones while driving? This is because they are afraid of being prosecuted for murder?

we had some one on a skate board get hit in front of my house the were missing with there brother well he was driving the other was on a skate board he pushed forwars hit a bump and panicked a helmet would have saved the skaters life

I'm amazed at the lack of care cars show around me. When I ride a roadbike, I ride it on the road. I fare well when it comes to cars seeing me. When I ride bmx, I ride on the sidewalk. When I go through a crosswalk. If I dont make eye contact with whoever is turning right, I don't go. You would be shocked :eek: at the number of people who dont look right when making a right turn, not even once. They don't realize that someone could possibly be waiting to cross the street. When I'm in the middle of the intersection crossing from the opposite side, people almost always cut me off turning on red. The sad part is I live in a suburban community full of kids that love to ride thier bicycles. :( Also, I think not wearing a helmet isn' t the cause of her death. I've cracked agresive helmets(the ones for skateparks) on hard hits to the head, but I don't think those hits even compare to being hit by a car.


of course a helmet would have helped, she obviously got knocked over, doesnt say how fast the car was going but it says she dies of her head injurys, a cycle helmet could of made those fatial head injurys just a mild concusion. If you get hit at 30mph with a helmet, you wont die unless you end up under the car. You could even survive greater. You should try and role on to the car in a crash rather then bounch and hit the road, unfortunatly a cyclist wont really be able to do that, and SPD's could prove fatial, i think the best way to avoid it on a bike is cycle safley, and be vigulant, use a mirror and if the car behind you is swearving around like its a drunk driver, get off your bike on to the pavement keeping the bike between you and the car, if you have to dive off the bike do so, you will still hurt yourself but these precutions will save you a serious injury.