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Hey guys,
I'm having trouble with front brake chatter on my CX machine. 1-1/8" Kinesis crosslight fork, tektro shortie cantilevers WTB ball bearing threadless headset. I've tried 3 different sets of brake pads, 2 different wheels (each with a different rim) and toeing the pads. Extreme brake pad toe in improves things, but the amount that I have to angle the pads is rediculous, and I loose a lot of power. Any ideas?
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That's all the stuff I'd try. One more idea- think about how the pad hits the rim. Set up for reasonable toe- in, but also look at the angle of the working edge of the pad as it hits the rim. Try lowering the brake pads in the canti slots so the posts are angled up (and increasing the effective length of the pad post a bit). This way the pads strike the rim first along their lower edges, and the pads flatten out on the rim as more lever pressure is applied. Canti adjustment is alchemy sometimes- you could also play around with the straddle cable length. In theory it shouldn't matter, but sometimes it just takes a combination of things- experimentation wins over theory with cantis sometimes.
Thanks for the input, I hadn't tried rotating the pads on that axis. Seems logical. I suspect the long steerer tube on the fork isn't helping-I hope I don't have to get another fork.
Good luck! I have the exact same problem that you do. I 've tried all the same things that you have, and some more: Eliminated all play in the brake bosses. Different cantis (Avid 4s to new Shimanos). Brake Booster. New fork; Winwood Carbon (It helped, but the cat came back). New wheels.
The best I've managed is squeal elimination... Chatter remains :(
I believe the fork is having trouble coping with the power of the brakes, and is flexing, then reflects back, to cause the chatter. Perhaps dialing just the right amount of power, through pads and toeing, is key. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Yeah, it is really starting to piss me off. There is no escaping the chatter-I don't even use my front brake except in emergencies now. I think I will just get my hands on a beefy steel fork with large diameter legs and be done with it.
I have varying amounts of chatter to squeal on my Lemond Poprad. Tried varations of toe in, pads, etc. cleaning pads, etc.
I found that when I get more squeal I get less chatter and find this more annoying, but more safe. Chatter has been so bad that sudden stops have vibrated the front handlebars so much it nearly shook my hands off the bars, hence my preference for squeal.
I guess its a design flaw with this type of brake.
Al
I think it is a problem with fork stiffness as much as anything else. Aluminum and lightweight carbon forks just don't seem to have the torsional or bending stiffness to handle a cantilever style brake. My Kinesis fork uses roughly the same OD of a traditional rigid steel mountain fork, at less wieght, meaning it is likely less than 1/3 as stiff in torsion and bending.
I'm thinking about trying a cromoly fork, but there don't seem to be too many out there that are reasonable in cost. The Kona project 2 looks good. Maybe the surly. Any others I'm missing?
I'm thinking about trying a cromoly fork, but there don't seem to be too many out there that are reasonable in cost. The Kona project 2 looks good. Maybe the surly. Any others I'm missing?
Tange makes decent cromo forks. You can get 'em for about $45.00 US at bikeman.com
The fork on the Poprad is Alloy X which I believe is a ChoMo nickle alloy. It too has the chatter problem.
The question I wonder is why do designers/manufacturers design these stock CX bikes that have such a chatter problem. Why hasn't there been any solutions/designs that address the problem? Do touring bikes that also use same type of brakes have this problem?
Al
http://www.cyclecomponents.com/images/artiklar/zoom/SALSA259_1.jpg
I had the same problem until I started using a fork mounted cable stop. Works like a charm!
I had the same problem until I started using a fork mounted cable stop. Works like a charm!
What kind of fork / cable stop are you using... I'm getting a little impatieint myself...
What kind of fork / cable stop are you using... I'm getting a little impatieint myself...
Yeah, what does a fork mounted one look like?
Al
Where did you find the fork mount cable stop? I haven't seen one in a long time.
Are you saying a brake booster solves the chatter problem?
I am not too familiar with a brake booster, how does it fit on a stock Lemond Poprad. How does it affect tire size options?
Al
The fork on the Poprad is Alloy X which I believe is a ChoMo nickle alloy. It too has the chatter problem.
Hmm interesting. I thought that was an aluminum fork. It is strange that the manufacturers don't resolve this issue, it could be addressed at the design stage for sure. The thing is, traditional, rigid fork MTB's rarely had this problem, using the same kinds of brakes, and the forks were essientially the same length. What is different here? Slightly steeper head angles, and higher boss location-but either of these seems an unlikely cause to me. The old MTB forks were quite a bit beefier though.
Anyone have luck with brake boosters? Might help, but it seems like some have tried and had no luck.
It will improve the quality, but not necessarily solve the problem completely.
I’m using winwood muddy carbon fork together with Paul’s Neo Retro Canties.
The Paul’s are not compatible with a brakebooster and it chatters like ∆€¤‡ω, but a friend of mine really improved his braking quality with one. Looks ugly though.
Are you saying a brake booster solves the chatter problem?
I am not too familiar with a brake booster, how does it fit on a stock Lemond Poprad. How does it affect tire size options?
Al
The ones I have seen will not interfere with tires unless you are running something over 2" wide-they are made to bolt onto MTBS. They bolt on in front of the cantilever or v brake, using the bosses as an anchor. Should fit on any cross bike I would think, but it does look a little funny.
Darkmother,
Here's a pic of what I used to run when I had canti's. Any bike shop should be able to order one for you from Seattle bike supply. That's one of the only wholesellers that carry it. The idea with the hanger is to get the cable end as close to the brakes as possible and reduce the amount of exposed cable. I didn't notice any change or loss of braking power. Just follow the suggestions on proper brake setup and you'll be good to go.
http://img7.exs.cx/img7/742/hangeredited3wj.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Um.. I used to have the Kona Project 2. It chattered... hard.
Darkmother,
Here's a pic of what I used to run when I had canti's. Any bike shop should be able to order one for you from Seattle bike supply. That's one of the only wholesellers that carry it. The idea with the hanger is to get the cable end as close to the brakes as possible and reduce the amount of exposed cable. I didn't notice any change or loss of braking power. Just follow the suggestions on proper brake setup and you'll be good to go.
http://img7.exs.cx/img7/742/hangeredited3wj.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Thanks, I'm pretty sure I can find one of those somewhere. I may even have one lying around, not sure.
Um.. I used to have the Kona Project 2. It chattered... hard.
D'oh.
Ok, so I finally got rid of my brake chatter over the weekend. I tried a bunch of different combinations. In summary:
Tectro avid shortie clones + steer tube mounted cable stop = high amplitude low speed chatter
Tectro cantis + fork mount cable stop = low amplitude, higher frequency chatter. Still too much.
V brake + travel agent = no chatter. Don't really like the travel agent though, kind of like fixing something with duct tape.
Diacompe 987 canti + steer tube cable hanger= high frequency low amplitude chatter.
Diacompe 987 + fork cable hanger = smooth braking!
Ok, so I finally got rid of my brake chatter over the weekend. I tried a bunch of different combinations. In summary:
Tectro avid shortie clones + steer tube mounted cable stop = high amplitude low speed chatter
Tectro cantis + fork mount cable stop = low amplitude, higher frequency chatter. Still too much.
V brake + travel agent = no chatter. Don't really like the travel agent though, kind of like fixing something with duct tape.
Diacompe 987 canti + steer tube cable hanger= high frequency low amplitude chatter.
Diacompe 987 + fork cable hanger = smooth braking!
Darkmother, where did you find that Cable hanger...? was it hangin round or did you buy it recently... Im Experienceing the same deal... Project two fork and Tektro canti's.
Darkmother, where did you find that Cable hanger...? was it hangin round or did you buy it recently... Im Experienceing the same deal... Project two fork and Tektro canti's.
Hi,
I had it already. I bought it when I picked up my commuter frame a few years back, and forgot about it when I switched to V brakes- I think it was pretty cheap. I'm pretty sure the store I bought the frame from has more. If you can't find one locally, I can pick one up for you.
The cable hanger alone didn't fix the problem for me. If you can find some high quality old school mtb cantis, they seem to be more solid.
Oops, I didn't notice you are in toronto. I got it at Urbane Cycles, at Queen W and John st. You can also try Igor, at Queen street west, near ossington. His shop is on the south side of the street, and you will definately know it when you see it.
darkmother, thanks I'll give it a try, these Canti's are new, so they should be tight nuff for now... I've been hunting for some avid's are they not as good as say some old school XT's?
Yeah, my tectros are brand spankin' new too. No problems on the back, but on the front, no way. Old XT's are pretty sweet, if you can find a set.
Ok, so I finally got rid of my brake chatter over the weekend. I tried a bunch of different combinations. In summary:
Tectro avid shortie clones + steer tube mounted cable stop = high amplitude low speed chatter
Tectro cantis + fork mount cable stop = low amplitude, higher frequency chatter. Still too much.
V brake + travel agent = no chatter. Don't really like the travel agent though, kind of like fixing something with duct tape.
Diacompe 987 canti + steer tube cable hanger= high frequency low amplitude chatter.
Diacompe 987 + fork cable hanger = smooth braking!
I wish that I could use a fork crown mounted cable hanger, but for some wierd reason the fork (that I ordered from my LBS :)) doesnt have any eylets in the droputs or the crown. Even though its identical to the Winwood fork.
Let me/us know if the chatter ever comes back. I've noticed that whenever I think I've eliminated chatter, it always seems to come back. (not to curse you or anything)
ILet me/us know if the chatter ever comes back. I've noticed that whenever I think I've eliminated chatter, it always seems to come back. (not to curse you or anything)
I bet a v-brake + travel agent, or tektro mini V's will help. Not sure if you're willing to go that route though. I really hope I don't have to mess with brake chatter any more. I've had enough.
Have you ever been to a cyclocross race? I saw one last November in which the start area was at the bottom of a little hill, with the parking lot at top. Almost all the bikes squealed when the riders braked coming down the hill. I knew I wasn't alone in my brake problems.
I've spent way too much time trying to fix chatter and squeal. It's voodoo, but I've managed to get it to work for now. I've had it on various combinations of a steel fork (Kona Project 2, I think), a carbon fork (Winwood muddy w/disc mounts), with Avid Shorties, Shimano's new cantis, and Tektro Oryx brakes.
In my experience, there's no set formula to fix chatter and squeal. I'd try the following:
- Toe-in.
- Toe-out. After the front of my pads wore down from being toed in, I decided to toe them out. The braking is better than it was before, and there's absolutely no squeal now. I was surprised that this worked so well because I had never heard it mentioned before.
- Try new brakes. In my experience, the Shorties were the squealiest. The Shimanos are good, but the Tektros work well and were quite inexpensive. Nashbar sells its own rebranded version of them.
I picked up a fork-mounted cable stop (Tektro 1272AF) from my local shop that I might put on if it starts acting up again. Has anyone used one of these on a carbon fork? It looks like it will need to be ground down and used with a thick washer because the mounting surface of the carbon fork is quite different from most steel or aluminum forks. namaste1978 - it looks like your fork is similar to my Winwood carbon -- what did you have to do to make it work?
Have you ever been to a cyclocross race? I saw one last November in which the start area was at the bottom of a little hill, with the parking lot at top. Almost all the bikes squealed when the riders braked coming down the hill. I knew I wasn't alone in my brake problems.
So why haven't engineers/designers worked to fix the problem?
As I wrote above "The question I wonder is why do designers/manufacturers design these stock CX bikes that have such a chatter problem. Why hasn't there been any solutions/designs that address the problem? Do touring bikes that also use same type of brakes have this problem?"
It seems it is also a safety problem as the chatter can get so bad it can nearly shake you off the bars on a hard stop.
Al
It seems it is also a safety problem as the chatter can get so bad it can nearly shake you off the bars on a hard stop.
That was my thought as well. My tourer is no cross bike, but I've mounted some pretty powerful cantis on it (dia-compe knock offs of mafac touring cantis - the ones the stick waaaay out), and even adjusted for maximum mechanical advantage, there is no chatter (*knocks wood*.) The tourer has BEEFY forks.
How much fork flex is going on here?
The fork flex is the "spring" that drives the chatter. All things being equal, a stiffer fork should lower the amplitude of the chatter and raise the frequency. At some point, it will dissapear. I think at least part of the problem is that cross bikes are using some pretty light, flexible forks. If you look at old rigid fork MTB's, they had some seriously beefy, heavy cro mo forks. I think the light weight aluminum and carbon forks that are popular today just aren't stiff enough.
It is maddening that such a widespread problem has not been addressed. Perhaps the cross market is too small?
Might be the brake studs or the brackets that they are bolted to...also, there is some play between the ID of the brake and the OD of the brake stud. I have a Pauls on one of my bikes and they work fine since the fit between the brake and the stud is fairly tight. But, on another bike, I have Radius' on it and it just squeals like crazy and there is some play when I grab the brake and move it around. I know the legs of the fork will have some torsional play so that can be another thing to look at.
The reason why I’m bothered with brake chatter has to do with the headset loosing up all the time.
It seems to me that a standard 36/45º alu cup design like Ritchey and Cane Creek just don’t do it.
Surfing around, a lot of steel cups or at least steel lower cup designs showed up, but many of them also 36/45º standard cartridge.
I’m now about to squeeze in a much better design. Haven’t quite decided between a standard Chris King and some other heavy duty stuff.
Maybe Syncros Hardcore (Read Ritchey. T.R. bought the company some time ago)
I recon brake chatter will be history after this.
BTW. I’m using Alpha Q CX fork (and or Winwood muddy), Paul’s NeoRetro and Ceramic rims.
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