Mountain Biking - Mechanics of Drifting?

So I am curious of the mechanics of drifting a bike on pavment, while taking corners, I'm thinking to get on the front brake to take some weight off the rear tire, and then swing the back end out. Am I right?

Pavement I wouldnt know as Im a dirt monkey. On the trails, I always use the rear brake when cornering, always. When it starts fishtailing, I feel cool :) I never lose control of the bike, alot of it is head and body placement.

Ya I know, it feels cool. When I used to race Superbikes, I could break the back tire loose with the throttle and down shifting, and drift the back end all over the place, but there is no throttle, nore serious down shifting to do it on a pedal bike. Drifting in dirt I think almost happens naturally as allot of time you'll get both wheels floating out there. There is a sweet video around here somewhere of a guy on a tandum bike doing some sweet drifting on the streets of San Fran. Lots of back end to play with there. :)

DO NOT LOCK YOUR REAR ON TURNS this damages the trail, and makes it less ridable over team, Id rarther look dumb and carve it right than look cool and F%$# up the trail.............Drift is inherent and and often avoidable, speed and dumps play a large roll in the dynamics, a drift is dfferent than locking your rear. With a drift your wheels are still spinning and they do less damage to the trail, and you dont loose as much speed.

Two wheel drifts are funnerer..........:D
-Jacob

Locking your rear tire is not drifting, it is called skidding, I was also speaking of drifting on pavement not on dirt, in dirt, a two wheel drift will get your attention quick, and happens more often than not. I agree don't lock your rear up on tails, I mean why would you want to slow your momentum, just more pedaling out of the corners if you do.

Drifting corners is no problem on pavement. First, get used to skidding in a straight line; get going at a resonably good speed, then lean your weight all the way forward and jam on the rear brake. After a while, you'll get to know where you and your bike balance re. deweighting the rear wheel. When you get good at this, try to skid in a straight line and tweak the rear around with your legs. Get good at that and drifting corners should be no problem.

I learned this way on a track bike, then I applied it to a road bike and still use it.

Or you could just come into the corner with a lot of speed, jam on the rear and put your foot down. Much less style but essentially does the same thing.

I came into a sharp turn in a high speed drift one time.I heard something crashing through the woods and realized it was me minus the bike. :roflmao:

I came into a sharp turn in a high speed drift one time.I heard something crashing through the woods and realized it was me minus the bike. :roflmao:

Ya if back tire hooks up anytime through that drift it can rely give you a wiggle, and if you are drifting both tires, and they both hook up, well you can say hello to mr. dirt, and give him a kiss.

DO NOT LOCK YOUR REAR ON TURNS this damages the trail, and makes it less ridable over team, Id rarther look dumb and carve it right than look cool and F%$# up the trail.............Drift is inherent and and often avoidable, speed and dumps play a large roll in the dynamics, a drift is dfferent than locking your rear. With a drift your wheels are still spinning and they do less damage to the trail, and you dont loose as much speed.

Two wheel drifts are funnerer..........:D
-Jacob


Who are you, the trail police? Fishtailing doesnt "damage" the trail, it keeps me from slamming into the brush or worse yet a boulder. If youre going fast and you hit a sharp turn what are you going to do? Slow down and take your sweet pansy time to make sure you dont "damage" the dirt? :rolleyes: Trails get "damaged" even when ppl arent riding on them i.e. wind, rain, natural errosion, wildlife.

I think the trail is damaged as soon as it's made...

harder to ride? guess that makes you a better rider over time....

the whole world is going to be destroyed in due time, may as well have fun while your here. or, ruin someone else's...;)

Easiest way to get long skids is to stand up, lean over the bars, and lock the rear brake. You get used to controlling it. If there's a beach near you, that's a great place to practice skidding. No tire or trail damage. Be warned that if you skid on pavement, most knobbies will last you about 10 minutes.

WHAT? You mean tires wear out when locked up on pavement???? :)

hahah

If youre going fast and you hit a sharp turn what are you going to do? Slow down and take your sweet pansy time to make sure you dont "damage" the dirt? :rolleyes:

In a word... yes.

the dirt will be around long after we are gone.

the dirt will be around long after we are gone.

Your the reason bikes are getting banned from trails.

Your the reason bikes are getting banned from trails.

No, I am not.

you've never ridden with me....... :rolleyes:

In a word... yes.

Yeah, tell that to the thousands of freeriders and dh'ers out there.

It’s a waste of momentum and rubber ....... and mountain biking is done in the dirt not on pavement. You may want the BMX forum.

In a downhill situation on a fire road surface you can scrub some speed in a corner if you need to but if you do it in front of me I will pass you and may (depending on your ranking) see to it that you go down for making me eat your environmentally inappropriate dirt.

Yeah, tell that to the thousands of freeriders and dh'ers out there.

You can run a clean fast line that minimises trail erosion... locking up your brakes and skidding through shows intent for disregard to preserving the trail. IMHO, if I've overcooked my entry speed into a turn and it's a choice between slowing down or skidding through then I'll slow down. I most likely want to be able to ride that trail again in the future. If you made a mistake in neglecting to keep your speeds appropriate for the conditions of that portion of the trail then suck it up and slow down. Doing otherwise shows a sense of inconsideration on your part.

You can run a clean fast line that minimises trail erosion... locking up your brakes and skidding through shows intent for disregard to preserving the trail. IMHO, if I've overcooked my entry speed into a turn and it's a choice between slowing down or skidding through then I'll slow down. I most likely want to be able to ride that trail again in the future. If you made a mistake in neglecting to keep your speeds appropriate for the conditions of that portion of the trail then suck it up and slow down. Doing otherwise shows a sense of inconsideration on your part.

Regardless of how you ride, the trail is going to errode. Rain is worse than riders are. The trails I ride are also horseback trails, try telling them not to "damage" the dirt. Perhaps you guys are misunderstanding the term "fishtail". I dont lock up my barkes to begin with, that sjust stupid. I squeeze the rear brake enough for the rear tire to hydroplane (for lack of a better word) over the surface allowing me to make a sharp turn with my front tire. My riding technique is far from inconsiderate.

The thing is, skidding is not usually the fastest way through the corner anyway. And braking without skidding slows you down quicker so you can get back on the power sooner. Skidding regularly is poor technique.

I dont like skidding at all. I feel like i have much less control of the bike, and when im clipped in i just dont like that

Drifting happens. However on properly made trails you shouldn't have to brake in the corner and nail it with tonnes of speed...

I think one thing some people are mixing up is the differences. Skidding is annoying and almost pointless, drifting is a very useful method for turning the bikes in the proper situations (at least thats how I was taught). Drifting you don't use the brakes and end up countersteering. Skidding is for kids who haven't learned body position turning. Most dhillers (generally signifigantly faster than most freeriders) don't use their brakes much and I doubt ANY of them would ever recommend using your brake mid corner. When you engage your brakes on a full suspension you lock or partially lock your suspension in place. This removes the ability of the bike to assist in the turn by adding traction and in a sense you end up riding a ht through the corner, thats pointless. You brake before enterring the turn and then explode out of the apex. 180 degree, switchbacks, berms...the theory is the same. In all honesty if you are braking in the turn you need more practice on the bike, because you are braking at the wrong time anyways.

Both drifting and skidding cause more damage than just pedalling through, I tend to only drift when I am on a maintained mountain/trail. I have the bonus of living in an area with a paid for mountain and a very very active trail crew.

Oh and I love the feeling of a good drift...I just pick and choose when it is needed.

Regardless of how you ride, the trail is going to errode. Rain is worse than riders are. The trails I ride are also horseback trails, try telling them not to "damage" the dirt. Perhaps you guys are misunderstanding the term "fishtail". I dont lock up my barkes to begin with, that sjust stupid. I squeeze the rear brake enough for the rear tire to hydroplane (for lack of a better word) over the surface allowing me to make a sharp turn with my front tire. My riding technique is far from inconsiderate.

However skidding creates unatural water runways. Which increases water errosion. Come to whistler and check out the braking bumps from newbs braking through corners. The damage is multiplied in one month to the point where it equals most peoples trails after several years. You can see how the water gets into those skid grooves and works the groove even further into the ground causing waterways in trails where they wouldn't normally be and seriously damaged trails. Without a crew constantly fixing the problem the trails would all be crappy bumps...

All because of skidding and poor braking techniques. If you don't believe me, come ride a-line with me in August (during a rainfall would be even better) on a rigid...you will never skid on a trail again.

Troie, you said that you wanted to slow down fast enough to not hit a bush, boulder whatever, in one of your early posts. Later you justified your use of the word "fishtailing" by saying that you were simply causing the tei to "hydroplane for lack of a better word" across the dirt. Maybe its just me, but if I wanted to slow down fast and avoid something, I wouldn't try to hydroplane my rear tire, hydroplaning won't help you slow down at all. And skidding as well isnt the best way to slow down, it takes much less room to not lock up and use both brakes, assuming you have both. That is part of the reason cars have anti-lock brakes, a more controlled(to avoid hitting things) faster way to stop.

Skidding regularly is poor technique.

Would you say the same to a World Class Downhill Racer? They need to skid otherwise they go off course.

You're not racing downhill are you? Find a xc rider who says skidding is a good idea.

Would you say the same to a World Class Downhill Racer? They need to skid otherwise they go off course.

Are you a World Class Downhill Racer?

So I am curious of the mechanics of drifting a bike on pavment, while taking corners, I'm thinking to get on the front brake to take some weight off the rear tire, and then swing the back end out. Am I right?



What kind of bicycle and tires do you have? Bicycle tires are not like motorcycle tires and some are so thin that a few pavement slides will ruin the tires.

It of course depends on the front / rear weight bias and the design of your bike. On some bikes just a hard snap of the rear outwards may do it.

You don't have many of the same handling traits of a motorcycle. You can't keep a drift going very long on pavement because you can't pedal in a drift and you have much slower speeds. You come to a stop very quickly. The bicycle is a lot more top heavy than the motorcycle, it high sides a lot worse. The bicycle may be 30 lbs. and you might be 175 lbs. So you are much heavier than the bike and very top heavy.
If the motorcycle is only 400 lbs. It's still more than you and you center of gravity is a lot lower. It's a lot easier with the profile of a motorcycle tire too. And of course you can keep the power on.

Would you say the same to a World Class Downhill Racer? They need to skid otherwise they go off course.

Didn't read my post did ya...

They aren't skidding, skidding is a loss of control. They do power slide but even then it is rare. They scrub enough speed to make the turn as fast as possible without sliding out.

You really need to get a movie call Fundementals and listen to what Gracia, Peat and Minnar have to say about steering.

I would be really interested to know what the guys who race have to say. Kona, Auto, hopper, dbd...I ride lots of dh and am just saying what I have been taught. Drifting is useful in some cases but most of the time there is a 'faster' way around a corner. And you never brake IN the corner, period...then again they might not want in this conversation haha

They aren't skidding, skidding is a loss of control. They do power slide but even then it is rare. They scrub enough speed to make the turn as fast as possible without sliding out.

Additionally, the courses during the races are specially groomed and prepped for this type of activity. And afterwards, they are properly cleaned up.

I think this post was originally about pavement.

I ride XC, and am wholeheartedly against drifting corners. As mentioned, it makes ruts, which makes water channels, which makes mud where it shouldn't be, which makes me sit out...or I get so frustrated at the situation that I go ride in the mud, which makes more ruts. The cycle of life continues.

I am very pro-pavement drifting though.

Would you say the same to a World Class Downhill Racer? They need to skid otherwise they go off course.

Let me think... I talked to Luke Strom in Thredbo, ok he may not race worlds but he is a consistant top 10 rider in Aus and Aus has 20 of the top 50 riders at the moment so he may know a thing or two. Also I have talked to Rennie once, guess what both say? Brake BEFORE corner, let go of break during corner pedal from apex of corner. Also they said dont skid, skid equals inefficient stopping and tyre wear. Drifting is good for high speed open corners as it allows you to hit it a bit faster and sort of flows better.

What I do, and by no means am I a brilliant rider, is brake before a corner then release during. If I want to drift I will finf the loosest patch of dirt on the line into the corner and just lean forward a bit and slide the rear out. However I am guilty of skidding occasionally, today for example on practice day for the race tomorrow, I jumped over the car landed off line, locked my rear to get sideway, then slid into the berm (without brakes on anymore) and got around, this was much slower than taking the proper line and riding through.

Also last week I did a rider skills course with Steve Marsh, pro Aussie who does the Nats scene and beat Kovarik last race. Well he was saying the best thing to do is just be smooth. Hit the corner a bit slower than you think you want to, let me tell you this is the best advice I have ever heard. He also said that in 95% of situations rolling through corner is quicker as it gives you the best EXIT SPEED. He also has a way with words that is so cool, "The drops aren't too big, just keep your line and you'll be fine" :p

Oh and back to the original question, to drift around a corner on pavement go fast lean forward and turn hard, you may need to tap your rear brake to initiate the turn but don't hold. My friend is the master of drifting, at Threbo we were in our car park and he'd go at a wall at about 30km/h and just slide his rear (with no brake) about 3m before the wall, get around full 180 and stop just before hitting the wall.

You could try using the front brake, but from personla experience I find trying to slide with front brake on = not nice grip on front, leaning forward to full loss of control and possible crash. When I try on pavement I just go fast, preload (I'm on a dually) and then push my rear out like I'm trying to do a whip off a jump. Usually induces drift, faster you go easier to induse and hold.

Let me think... I talked to Luke Strom in Thredbo, ok he may not race worlds but he is a consistant top 10 rider in Aus and Aus has 20 of the top 50 riders at the moment so he may know a thing or two. Also I have talked to Rennie once, guess what both say? Brake BEFORE corner, let go of break during corner pedal from apex of corner. Also they said dont skid, skid equals inefficient stopping and tyre wear. Drifting is good for high speed open corners as it allows you to hit it a bit faster and sort of flows better.



I stand corrected. I guess I have my own style of riding unless we are all confusing the terms "skidding" and "fishtailing" with "drifting". Next time I ride, Ill try to take a small vid.

Anytime your tire loses traction you are losing time.

I have to say this is a pretty stupid thread.

Definatly took a turn to the bad, where did all this dirt talk come from. LOL :)

Definatly took a turn to the bad, where did all this dirt talk come from. LOL :)

Following post #2. ;)

I have to say this is a pretty stupid thread.

No it isnt. We are discussing technique not winter mating rituals of african swallows. :rolleyes: