odd bloke

Just got a 2014 Surly Cross-Check, built up from scratch by a LBS service manager, with less than 200 miles on it; almost all Ultegra and carbon and stuff. I'm happier riding it than with any bike pretty much ever in my life, ever, EXCEPT:. . . The front der: Imprecise and mushy sums it up, with incredibly long throw to get it to do anything. (It was was SRAM Red, with a Shimano ST 4501 Tiagra shifter. Running 2X10.) Everything is clean and working properly; no dirt or gunk anywhere, and it's got brand new Gore Ride-on cables.

Took it to a couple of different folks, someone finally said switch out to Shimano der and all will be well. So I got a deal on a lightly used Ultegra 6600, put it in . . . and nothing really changed. (except of course that the Ultegra is heavier. . . )

Now, I have here a used Ultegra ST6600 in what looks and feels like almost new condition. The odd thing about it, is that when I hold it in my hand, off the bike, and shift it through its motion, it has only two positions, without the "trim" middle stop that I'd heard they all have. And when I look inside as I'm shifting, the cable hook seems to move only a very short distance, maybe 3/16 of an inch at the most.

So I have two questions: One: is it worth all the time and hassle of switching out the Tiagra for any Ultegra, and two: is the Ultegra I have here actually working right?

Thanks all.

Mcgrizzein

Have you checked out the shifter? All indexing is done in the shifter and has nothing to do with the derailleur. Also if your shifter is not indexed for shimano spacing, it will not work well. Try reading Upgrading Bicycle Gearing for some insight on how indexed shifters work.

spdracr39

It definitely sounds like it's a problem with a random mix and match of components. I would start with making a list of exactly what model of components you have then go down the compatibility list to make sure everything is supposed to work together. Cable pull can change between models even within the same brand.

fietsbob

Consider dumping the Left brifter for a friction lever? its simpler and cross compatible with anything..


Test: separate functions .. un hook your cable .. will it work when you push it by hand ? then the FD itself is not the Problem.

dsbrantjr

Make sure that the shift cable housing ends have been properly prepared; ground or filed flat and fitted with the appropriate ferrules. Sloppy housing fit will cause mushy shifting no matter how good the shifters are. So will poorly-routed housings or wires which do not make smooth curves and enter stops squarely, or dirty wire guides like the under-BB kind..

I distrust used brifters, personally.

onbike 1939

The loss of the trim function is usually caused by incorrect tension of the cable.

As for the Tiagra front shifter which I take is for a treble chain-set, it will have in fact three positions but only two clicks. In order to reach the trim position one must click to the far outer position then use the trim by gently touching the return lever and you may not be able to do this without the tension of the cable being present.

Front Der treble changers can be a pig to set up as the cable tension has to be spot on if the trim is to function. The tension is set by moving the chain from the small ring to the middle then adjusting the cable tension until the chain just misses the inner plate of the Der cage. Park tool instructions have a good set of instructions on this.

Amesja

Like it was said above, SRAM and Shimano cable pull/indexing is not the same. Dump the SRAM FD and get yourself a Shimano one. This is the easiest/cheapest way rather than trying to swap out an expensive brifter. I've been able to find decent used FD's at swap meets for $10-15. Not just cheap Tiagra but 105 and Ultegra derailleurs in perfectly good shape. If you have a triple then get a shifter that is made for a triple. You can get away with using the wrong type, double vs. triple, with a friction shifter -but you are going to have a lot more issues with tuning it on an indexed system.

Also try to get a front derailleur that is the same number of speeds as the chain you are running. As the number of speeds goes up on the rear the chain gets thinner and the distance between the plates on the cage of the front derailleur gets smaller too. You can get away with a difference of about 1 from what was designed but tuning is much harder than if you match it exactly. You might have more rubbing in the cross-chaining with a 10-speed FD that you just can't tune out. So do your homework on what derailleur was made for what speed chain and make a list of compatible ones before you go shopping for used ones. Or just buy one from Ebay. The correct double 9-speed shimano FD to match your bike would be the FD-4400/9-speed. You can buy one on ebay for $29.99 shipped But don't get stuck on only the Tiagra. You can get a Sora or a 105 or even an Ultegra 9-speed FD for double rings. Just be careful of your clamp size to match your seat tube. Don't get stuck on the group level of the FD. It really makes very little difference. The shifter is the part that is most important as far as shifting quality goes. Even a Sora FD will shift as well as an Ultegra. The only real difference is a few grams and nicer polish/finish on the higher-end front derailleurs. They are going to get beat up anyhow with any riding.

Also, be sure that the housing is well terminated and not old/crappy. The housing that came with your bike is probably toast by this time. Use new housing and metal ferrules if you can get them. That helps a LOT. It's a lot easier finding metal housing for 5mm compressionless housing than 4mm. Seems that you have to really hunt for metal 4mm ferrules and for 5mm you can just use the same ferrules as brake housing. Your bike shop will probably have 5mm shift housing and metal ferrules. You don't need much of it. Most likely you will need to replace the cable too if it is too frayed to push back into the new housing. Get good slick SS cable although that isn't as important on the FD as it is for the RD.

odd bloke

Wow folks; thanks. Lots of info here; I'll try to make it succinct.

Mcgrizzein: Yup; that was the purpose of replacing the SRAM w/ the Ultegra derailluer, since the shifter was Shimano. As I said, I noticed no diference. So your point about the shifter is taken, and leads me to wonder if I have the wrong shifter for my purposes?

spdracr39: Do you have a source for the compatibility list you mention? I'd really like to see that.

fietsbob: Unhooked the cable; everything moves freely. Also, I agree the FD isn't the issue, since I replaced it and nothing changed. Switching out to friction is an option, but I'd really like to keep the setup I have, if possible, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else; on this bike, a brifter on one side and friction shifter on the other would be really weird. And the rear is shifting so amazingly well right now, I hesitate to touch it.

dsbrandtjr: The cables all look great; it's about the best routing and prep job I've seen - at least in my experience.

onbike: hmm. . . that's interesting. Are you saying that the "trim" position is NOT in the middle? Right now, I have to push twice to shift to the big ring (it moves part way on the first push, but doesn't really rub), but to get back to the small ring, I can push once, really long and past the middle zone (where it "clicks" loudly and feels really rough). So it could be a triple, trying to run a double setup? If so, that might be the whole problem. . . .. ??

From your description, It sounds like I wouldn't be able to notice the trim function just by shifting the unmounted and disconnected shifter. . . .

Which leaves me wondering again if the spare Ultegra 6600 shifter is working properly. I can look inside and watch the cable hook move when I shift, but it only moves a very short distance, much shorter than I think the cable needs to move to work the FD. (BTW amesja: good point: the FD is correct for my 2X10 setup, and is Shimano. Also, I take your point about the group being less important; thanks for that). Based on your comments, I'd like to try to replace the Tiagra-which-which-could-be-a-triple, but don't want to go through all that unless I'm sure the Ultegra at least is working properly. So is the Ultegra OK? It sure does feel awesome and smooth when I work it. Is there a way to check it before installing?

onbike 1939

The trim function comes into play when the chain is on the middle ring and is rubbing on the inner side-plate of the Front Der. A gentle touch on the down lever should then move the FD slightly inwards doing away with this rubbing. If the cable tension is not spot-on then the trim position will move away from the middle ring. It is important to know when setting cable tension using the middle ring, whether the trim is in operation so it is best to move the chain to the big ring, change down to the middle ring and you will then be on the middle with no trim in operation. The cable tension can then be set by adjusting the cable tension so that the chin just misses the inner side-plate of the FD. It's essential that the "Low" adjustment screw is in the correct position before attempting this.

I'm aware this does sound complicated and it may be helpful to use these instructions.


Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Front Derailleur Adjustments. Scroll down to here.
Front Derailleur- Adjusting Indexing (Three Chainring Bikes)

RR3

I have SRAM Red FD on two bikes and they shift brilliantly but then again, I have the correct shifters.

Shimano and SRAM have different pulls and totally different FD design. That is your problem....not compatible.

rydabent

amesja

I take exception to your suggestion that the Sram front shifter be ditched. My Rans recumbent has a Sram 5 shifting set up, and it works flawlessly.

On these forums I read so many complaints about derailers not working right no matter what the brand. Im sorry but probably 99% of these "problems" are simply do to bad adjustments.

intransit1217

fwiw, I figured out that on my sora /105 fd set up, I must be mid casette and I must push the lever twice to get the big ring.


​But that's my set up.

odd bloke

As I mentioned; I had switched out to Shimano FD (Ultegra) some time ago, so I'm no longer on SRAM, and that doesn't apply. I have nothing against SRAM, but the brifter is Shimano, so I'm working from that.

However, I've gone back and re-adjusted the whole front setup, from scratch - partly based on suggestions here, and taking into account the issues with cable tension mentioned. (Although I can't use directions concerning adjusting a triple, since I have 2X10)

Result: it now shifts really crisply and very precise, way better, although there is a clear "middle" position, where the FD moves roughly halfway, and thus requires a second push (going up), and a really long push (going down, through two positions). It's also clear that this middle position is essential to prevent chain rub if I get anywhere even close to cross-chaining (in either direction), positions that I would normally assume wouldn't require any adjustment. That's lead me to wonder if my FD is actually 9 speed and not 10 as I had believed. . . . .

I can kind of live with the setup for the moment; at least I can ride and be confident that when I want to shift I'll get the job done quickly and reliably. However, I'm still hoping to end up with a true "double" setup, where one push/click gets me where I want to go.

The spare Ultegra double sti sitting here on my desk is still a mystery; I'd still like to know if there's any good way to be sure it's working properly before I try to install it. Anyone**********

Thx.

odd bloke

For those still watching. . .. a few discoveries and updates.

* I discovered that Shimano doubles all have the middle position, and THAT'S the "trim" position. All Shimano double setups have a double-click shift, going up and down. So Intransit: it sounds like your setup is "normal". In light of that, I''ll settle for the way mine shifts now.

* The Ultegra sti 6600 I had was definitely broken. I still want to replace the Tiagra, so the brifters will match though. I'm looking for a 105 sti 5600 double (silver lever) if anyone has a lightly used one in new-looking condition that actually works and works well.

*There's an extraordinary amount of widely divergent opinions about shifting and derailleur function, and it's hard to sift through it all. Even the mechanic at my LBS had thoughts that turned out to be wrong in my case. Which makes it great that we can come here and sift through it all, and somehow sort it out.

On the road now, and loving it.

shoota 

All you guys that think Sram and Shimano FDs aren't compatible are wrong. In fact, when Red came out the titanium cage of the Red fd was so flexy and poor shifting that a common fix was to put any Shimano fd on instead.

shoota 

I have a pair of 5700 105 silver levers if you are interested in the pair.

odd bloke

I might be, if I can't find a single 5600; they seem to be really hard to find. I'm going to wait a few weeks and check out various sources before I decide, but yours are definitely a good possibility.

How much are you asking, and what sort of condition? They are 2 X 10, yes?

thx.

odd bloke

Yup; like I said: an amazing variety of opinions on this topic.

I've had professional bike mechanics tell me the exact opposite of this. But my short experience I think confirms what you're saying; I found no difference in shifting action between the two. Yet it seems to be common accepted wisdom that they're not compatible.

Except amongst those who don't agree, that is. . . . .

shoota 

Yep. https://www.bikeforums.net/sale/10023...ano-group.html

Blue Belly

I know nearly nothing about your frame. My experience tells me that a flexy frame can make der adjusting a bit difficult. just throwing in the outside chance...

shoota 

That would have to be one heck of a flexy frame.

odd bloke

thx. I'll contact you in a few weeks if I strike out on finding just the one. Hopefully if that happens you'll still have. . . .

odd bloke

See Cross-Check | Bikes | Surly Bikes. In my experience, Cro-Moly is generally not considered too "flexy", but I'm not sure what you mean by that.

In any case, it's shifting much better now, after taking into account all the thoughts people have posted here. All I want now is for the brifters to match, and since the right is 105 and working flawlessly . . .

Although come to think of it, everything else on the bike is Ultegra, so maybe vanity dictates I get two new Ultegra sti's . . .
got nothing else to spend my money on, hmm. . . ?

Blue Belly

i had an Ultegra comfort oriented road bike, a few years back. The things had so much flex it it that it had to be adjusted precise on the front deraileur or it would have a tough time doing its job properly. I upgraded the front D to Dura Ace & it helped a lot. But still couldnt find the "perfect" adjustment.

shoota 

I wouldn't count on it. You can buy these and sell your pair pretty easily. People are always looking for a working right shifter, throw in the left to use as a brake lever and someone snatch them up no problem.