Dfrost 

You've already got anti-seize, so use that for the spoke threads. Use any old grease for the nipple seats in the rim. Don't use Locktite anywhere on a wheel.

Listen to what FBinNY says. He's got plenty of experience, and explains it well.

I'm an engineer, and have built 20-30 wheels that have held up well. DB spokes are definitely worthwhile, and I like the result when the left (NDS) spokes are thinner than than the DS.

FBinNY 

If only Deb could hear that.

Jarrett2

If DB is stronger than straight, which DB spoke is the best to use for your average road bike wheels?

Meaning where do you start hitting the diminishing returns?

2.0/1.8/2.0, 2.0/1.7/2.0, 2.0/1.5/2.0?

Also, is there no reason to use something to keep the spokes from loosening over time?

If there is, what's safe to use with alloy nipples?

mconlonx

Depends on what your demands are -- quality v. price v. cosmetics...

2.0/1.8/2.0 is what I tend to go with because of wider availability in a number of different lengths.

Some people think that spokes don't need a locking agent -- I believe FB posted a great reasoning previous in this thread -- but I was taught to use some kind of locking agent (I like boiled linseed oil) and so I keep doing it. Most locking agents also act as corrosion mitigators, which is of greater concern in my area. I've also used DT Swiss Pro-lock nipples, which are the nipple equivalent of Nyloc nuts, to good effect.

I would not hesitate to use any of the previously mentioned locking agents with alloy nipples, in fact, alloy would be a great excuse to use anything at all. I just don't use alloy at all in my area because of sea-air and road-salt.

FBinNY 

It's not a question of diminishing returns, it's a question of fitness for the purpose.

Let's start with the basic premise that DB is stronger. That's not exactly true, so I prefer to say "as strong with less weight". If we accept the notion that a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, then we need to find a spoke's weakest link(s).

Spokes have 2. The first is the root of the thread which on a 2mm spoke is slightly larger than 1.8mm (actual = .064"). Then consider the elbow. The shear strength of steels is generally in then range of 80% of the tensile (rough number but OK for working with here). So any material with a cross section area greater than that of a 1.8mm or 80% of 3.14mm (1mm squared x Pi) is wasted material that won't contribute to the wheels strength. When you do the math 1.8mm is about the largest you can use in the center of a 2mm spoke without exceeding the strength of the ends, which is probably this is the most common DB spoke.

When you look at durability, it gets more complex because spokes fail via metal fatigue, not (usually) from single event overloading. Here is where butted spokes shine. When metals flex under load the greatest flex will happen at the thinnest section, and/or at the fulcrum of any bending moments. So the likely places for a spoke to fail are at the thread or the elbow, and in point of fact this is where spokes fail, even butted ones with very thin middle sections. But the thinner the middle section, the greater the amount of flex that will happen there, and the less at either end. So the thinnest butted spokes will likely build the longest lived wheels (all other things being equal).

But there's a catch. The stiffness of a wheel is determined by the number and overall thickness of the spokes. So going thinner has a cost in added flex which can affect performance.

So spoke selection if part of the art of wheel building. I choose spokes in relation to the rim used, the weight of the rider and the purpose of the wheel. I generally use plain gauge spokes for track wheels, especially for sprinters, to gain the maximum stiffness. I'll use butted spokes for almost all road uses, and I prefer to use more thinner spokes than fewer heavier spokes because that lets me use lighter rims. In the rear I'll use lighter spokes on the left to ensure adequate elongation at the lower tension involved.

So, throw all the factors into a hopper, stick in you hand and pull out the right spoke gauge for the particular application, and build strong, tough, durable wheels that are still light and resilient.

FWIW- my 26" commuter was built of relatively light Mavic 32h rims, and 1.8/1.5 spokes all around except for the right rear which was 1.8/1.6. The wheels lasted almost until the brake track wore through at about 25,000 miles, but unfortunately were tacoed in a broadside collision.

As for spoke prep - any clingy oil or grease or grease based product will do the job.

fietsbob

The deal is not so much more strength as the elasticity of thinning the center takes flexing fatigue off the ends . 2mm plain is strong .

I prefer to use Anti Sieze-grease to make the spoke wind up less , and do maintenance truing over time . Ii dont buy and ignore.

Safe to use alloy nipples ? for how long ? brass is fine by me ..

Jarrett2

Thanks for all the great info.

I ask because I bought a set of wheels before learning much about this stuff. They are 440 gram, 32 hole rims with 2.0/1.5 spokes throughout.

Early on, they needed a lot of tweaking, but I finally got them to a point where they were relatively stable. Now after a particularly hard or rough ride, I will double check them and typically find one spot on the rear wheel that is slightly out of true. Not enough to touch a brake pad, not really even close, but its off a little. I put it on the stand and dial the problem out.

It seems to usually be on the NDS. The DS stays really even on tension, but the NDS seems to change a bit and require a little tweak from time to time. I'm not sure if that is normal or I should go to some type of thread locker or even go up to a 2.0/1.8 spoke. I don't mind tweaking the wheel, I just don't want to it to be indicative of an issue that needs to be fixed and I don't know it. The builder used alloy nipples as well. I wish they were brass, but they are not, so I treat them with kid gloves a bit.

fietsbob

3 corner spoke wrenches may be a good thing on alloy Nips

FBinNY 

Learn to leave bad enough alone. I can't see, feel or otherwise examine your wheels so I can't say what's going on, but I wouldn't be surprised if what you were doing was twisting the spokes, which untwisted over time (1.5mm spokes twist like taffy). Odds are if you left them in their state of imperfection they'd settle there and stay the same for a long time. OTOH if they did get worse, there might be enough to draw some conclusions.

Note also, that though you think the problem is on the left, it could be on the right. It takes tiny changes on the right to cause wobble which could lead you to feel he problem is on the left.