Am I Wrong to Hate Press-Fit Bottom Brackets?
#51
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#52
Banned
The other approach was taken to Beef Up the freewheel axle diameter , That works too ..
My Loaded Tour Bike has made many long trips to Europe , Phil Wood's Freewheel rear hub was 100% reliable ..
My Loaded Tour Bike has made many long trips to Europe , Phil Wood's Freewheel rear hub was 100% reliable ..
#53
Constant tinkerer
My take-away from that experiment is that q-factor does matter, at least to some people, but narrowest is not necessarily best. Everyone is going to have a certain range they feel ok with. Now I want to put some long road rides on a modern MTB crankset to see if my legs can handle the wider q-factor offered by those. I would like a fat bike someday but am worried about the (potentially) huge q-factor on those to clear the giant tires.
#54
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To learn that, read my previous replies and then try to comprehend them. Do you know what the lowest possible q factor is with respect to the chainstay width restriction? Do you know the various q factor measurements from other cranksets? For some reason I don't think you do. .....
Of course I don't know the Q-factors for various cranks, and what's more I don't care. My point from the very beginning was that BB width isn't the determining factor.
The minimum right Q-factor is determined by the 45mm or so chainline requirement, and both are determined by chainstay clearance, and crank arm thickness. It's easy, and has been for decades to build bikes with Q-factors as low as those minimums, if that's the goal, and narrowing the BB does nothing to change that.
BTW- since I didn't know, I decided to measure the Q-factor on my sq. taper, 68mm BB Chrous road bike from 2001. Right side Q-factor is 71mm, (outside face of arm to centerline) and the left the same, for a total of 142mm, which is lower than your "narrow" bike. There's plenty of room to bring the left in if I wanted to, but I prefer symmetry.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 05-06-15 at 12:48 PM.
#55
~>~
Not I, over the winter I'm converting two road bikes to triple cranks. One steel frame, the other the last generation of threaded CF BB.
Should take half an hour to remove the old crankset/BB and install new on each w/ zero compatibility problems or adhesives.
Simple maintenance, low cost and a reliable supply of components into the future, as it has been since I've been riding.
That matters to me, I keep machines in service for decades.
Proprietary or one generation and obsolete "standards" are not acceptable to me.
Pressed BB is an answer to a question that I didn't/don't ask.
-Bandera
Should take half an hour to remove the old crankset/BB and install new on each w/ zero compatibility problems or adhesives.
Simple maintenance, low cost and a reliable supply of components into the future, as it has been since I've been riding.
That matters to me, I keep machines in service for decades.
Proprietary or one generation and obsolete "standards" are not acceptable to me.
Pressed BB is an answer to a question that I didn't/don't ask.
-Bandera
#56
Banned
My Touring Bike build was in Eugene, and within a short distance to my friends at the Burly Tandem, Frame shop,
So I Built it up with what was Their stoker's BB shell, snap rings with an Oversize pair of sealed bearings in a Closed tube BB shell
Modified with a Zirk fitting Added to load the space between the bearings with Grease ..
By the way low Q is gained with the old square to the axle Straight crankarms . that are not mainstream anymore.
Hanebrink Big Bike used a jackshaft which is another shaft and Chain to go around fat ATV tires , but still use a Normal Crank on the primary Chain.
So I Built it up with what was Their stoker's BB shell, snap rings with an Oversize pair of sealed bearings in a Closed tube BB shell
Modified with a Zirk fitting Added to load the space between the bearings with Grease ..
By the way low Q is gained with the old square to the axle Straight crankarms . that are not mainstream anymore.
Hanebrink Big Bike used a jackshaft which is another shaft and Chain to go around fat ATV tires , but still use a Normal Crank on the primary Chain.
Last edited by fietsbob; 05-06-15 at 02:21 PM.
#57
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HuClose, but not quite.
Marketing has always HAD a voice. It's pretty much the definition of marketing - to make itself heard and noticed.
What seems to be happening more and more nowadays, is that engineering has become marketing's slave, tasked to provide marketing with something to talk ABOUT, whether it is merited or not.
I can, on occasion, notice flexy frames and sometimes wheels. But I've NEVER gotten off a bike thinking "man, that would have been a sweeter ride if only the cranks/BB had been a bit stiffer".
Marketing has always HAD a voice. It's pretty much the definition of marketing - to make itself heard and noticed.
What seems to be happening more and more nowadays, is that engineering has become marketing's slave, tasked to provide marketing with something to talk ABOUT, whether it is merited or not.
I can, on occasion, notice flexy frames and sometimes wheels. But I've NEVER gotten off a bike thinking "man, that would have been a sweeter ride if only the cranks/BB had been a bit stiffer".
#58
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Interesting to note that outboard bearing bottom brackets ARE press fit bearing BB's.
Just that the bearings are pressed onto the holders (cups?), which are then threaded into the frame.
These bearings are replaceable, by the way. Ceramic and steel bearings are available for outboard bearing BB's.
Just that the bearings are pressed onto the holders (cups?), which are then threaded into the frame.
These bearings are replaceable, by the way. Ceramic and steel bearings are available for outboard bearing BB's.
#59
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#60
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To me they're like Windows 7. An improvement best if leapfrogged over.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 05-06-15 at 04:57 PM.
#61
Constant tinkerer
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In any case, I made a mistake. I actually do like windows 7, and was happy to have leapfrogged Vista. Now, like with bike progress, I was forced to move to Windows 8 when my laptop died, and have mixed feelings about it. In all honesty, though, I suspect my issues with 8.1 are more related to how comfortable I was with 7 than with actual issues with 8.1.
OTOH - as the owner/user of a number of business programs, I find it annoying that when I"m forced to upgrade the platform, I often have to shell out for updated versions of programs I already paid for.
Now windows 10 is coming, and if I should buy new hardware I might have to shell out for another round of program upgrades. In fact I still have an XP machine that I have to keep alive because there's stuff on it I either can't or won't pay to upgrade.
Sadly bikes are becoming this way. If you crash the frame, it can become a problem finding a replacement that will accept your sitll OK components.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#63
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Yes. I hate that press-fit has taken away the easy of doing my own work.
I know you all have been talking about road bikes. My one press-fit bike however, is a mountain bike. Best thing I ever did was to buy a Praxis Cycles conversion bottom-bracket:
CONVERSION BB | Praxis Cycles
Beautiful! It screws in to a press-fit shell. Worth every penny to me not to have to muck about with actually pressing.
Santa Cruz, I noticed yesterday, continues to support the English threaded bottom-bracket, and in part they say it is because many of their customers are like me, building up their own frames at home.
I know you all have been talking about road bikes. My one press-fit bike however, is a mountain bike. Best thing I ever did was to buy a Praxis Cycles conversion bottom-bracket:
CONVERSION BB | Praxis Cycles
Beautiful! It screws in to a press-fit shell. Worth every penny to me not to have to muck about with actually pressing.
Santa Cruz, I noticed yesterday, continues to support the English threaded bottom-bracket, and in part they say it is because many of their customers are like me, building up their own frames at home.
#64
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Heh, that's kind of what I was hinting at -- that by the time I can't get threaded square-taper parts anymore, who knows what'll be out there?
#65
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Yes. I hate that press-fit has taken away the easy of doing my own work.
I know you all have been talking about road bikes. My one press-fit bike however, is a mountain bike. Best thing I ever did was to buy a Praxis Cycles conversion bottom-bracket:
CONVERSION BB | Praxis Cycles
Beautiful! It screws in to a press-fit shell. Worth every penny to me not to have to muck about with actually pressing.
I know you all have been talking about road bikes. My one press-fit bike however, is a mountain bike. Best thing I ever did was to buy a Praxis Cycles conversion bottom-bracket:
CONVERSION BB | Praxis Cycles
Beautiful! It screws in to a press-fit shell. Worth every penny to me not to have to muck about with actually pressing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eory8iw2BqU
FWIW, it's a 6 of one, half a dozen of another scenario for me. My first road bike was an SR 10-speed. It went a full year before the cranks gave me issues. (square taper) The cranks arms simply wouldn't stay tight. After several retightens w/ loctite and various other tricks, I gave up & sold the bike.
(shrug)
#66
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Of course you know that if you're not using a bearing press (home made or otherwise) to pre-fit and a BB tool to remove it that you're actually doing it wrong, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eory8iw2BqU
(shrug)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eory8iw2BqU
(shrug)
On the one hand, I am pretty careful about following install instructions for bike parts.
OTOH, it was three seasons ago, or maybe four, and I honestly do not recall doing that press-fit as described in the video.
OTOOH, I do know that the bike is the one for which I bought larger washers for my threaded rod. OTOOOH, those may have been to seat the tapered headset.
If I had to guess, I would guess that I followed the instructions and just do not remember well. Can't be sure though, because I don't remember.
#67
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OP here. The responses seem to run from "I feel your pain" to "You can learn to live with them". Not exactly a ringing endorsement of press-fit bottom brackets. I notice that Bikes Direct's Motobecanes still have threaded BBs. Sadly, I might have to consider them if I want a new bike.
#68
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A poor design is a poor design. The reason Suntour and shimano went with the freehub design was to move the right side bearings outboard for reliability. Cassette or Freewheel Hubs by Jobst Brandt
#69
Senior Member
Oh my! This is where I wish my memory was better, because I do it recall just what I did.
On the one hand, I am pretty careful about following install instructions for bike parts.
OTOH, it was three seasons ago, or maybe four, and I honestly do not recall doing that press-fit as described in the video.
OTOOH, I do know that the bike is the one for which I bought larger washers for my threaded rod. OTOOOH, those may have been to seat the tapered headset.
If I had to guess, I would guess that I followed the instructions and just do not remember well. Can't be sure though, because I don't remember.
On the one hand, I am pretty careful about following install instructions for bike parts.
OTOH, it was three seasons ago, or maybe four, and I honestly do not recall doing that press-fit as described in the video.
OTOOH, I do know that the bike is the one for which I bought larger washers for my threaded rod. OTOOOH, those may have been to seat the tapered headset.
If I had to guess, I would guess that I followed the instructions and just do not remember well. Can't be sure though, because I don't remember.
And the memory problem doesn't get any better with age!
And I will say that the Praxis conversion kit is impressive, too. Though if Campag4Life visits this thread, he will enlighten a bit about the simplicity and dead-reliable potential of BB30 which I mostly believe to be true, minus riding in horrible weather, etc.
I still need to pull my BB30 apart to inspect. I found my cranks a smidge loose after I found a "tick" in mine and has been fairly quiet since I snugged it up, though still an occasional tick on the drive side whenever I really mash. I've got all the bearings, the loctite, the punch and just need to make my own press with a bolt, nuts & some washers. (Or just use a C-clamp & some wood) And then get 'er dun.
#71
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Guys, the problem is not press fit BB's (eventhough I hate them with a vengeance, having worked on various press fit standards in a roadie shop).
The real problem is press fit BB's in conjunction with carbon fibre frames, especially the ones that have a monocoque construction.
The frame acts as a giant resonance-box, amplifying every tiny sound produced by all components and the friction between them. A rear wheel quick-release skewer left too loose can produce an almighty creak as if the crankset is about to explode. A seatpost not properly greased, under-torqued or over-torqued can sound as if the frame is about to break (but can be found easily by lifting your butt off the seat on a test ride.
Carbon fiber headset spacers need to be lightly lubed , because they can rub against eachother and start to squeak. Not to mention cables rattling against the liner inside the frame, etc etc. It goes on and on.
I am so glad I don't work in a roadie shop anymore, because I got quite sick of chasing creaks and squeaks, eventhough I got quite good at it.
The other problem is the tolerance the frame manufacturer uses for the BB shell. Aluminum shells can be chased and faced to accomodate slightly, but carbon ones cannot.
When new standards require tighter tolerances, frame mfgs and component mfgs need to up their game and produce something that is on a par with the dream they are selling. Instead they blame eachother for not adhering to the tolerances of the standard.
It's a ****ing nightmare and everyone in the business of selling these bikes keeps providing mitigating circumstances. It's hardly progress is it? More noise, shorter component life, rising maintenance costs.
Dealers can feel only half-blessed with selling more bearings and the like. I don't think any shop truly keeps track of the workshop hours spent on warranty squeak chases and component replacements.
The real problem is press fit BB's in conjunction with carbon fibre frames, especially the ones that have a monocoque construction.
The frame acts as a giant resonance-box, amplifying every tiny sound produced by all components and the friction between them. A rear wheel quick-release skewer left too loose can produce an almighty creak as if the crankset is about to explode. A seatpost not properly greased, under-torqued or over-torqued can sound as if the frame is about to break (but can be found easily by lifting your butt off the seat on a test ride.
Carbon fiber headset spacers need to be lightly lubed , because they can rub against eachother and start to squeak. Not to mention cables rattling against the liner inside the frame, etc etc. It goes on and on.
I am so glad I don't work in a roadie shop anymore, because I got quite sick of chasing creaks and squeaks, eventhough I got quite good at it.
The other problem is the tolerance the frame manufacturer uses for the BB shell. Aluminum shells can be chased and faced to accomodate slightly, but carbon ones cannot.
When new standards require tighter tolerances, frame mfgs and component mfgs need to up their game and produce something that is on a par with the dream they are selling. Instead they blame eachother for not adhering to the tolerances of the standard.
It's a ****ing nightmare and everyone in the business of selling these bikes keeps providing mitigating circumstances. It's hardly progress is it? More noise, shorter component life, rising maintenance costs.
Dealers can feel only half-blessed with selling more bearings and the like. I don't think any shop truly keeps track of the workshop hours spent on warranty squeak chases and component replacements.
#72
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The other problem is the tolerance the frame manufacturer uses for the BB shell. Aluminum shells can be chased and faced to accomodate slightly, but carbon ones cannot.
When new standards require tighter tolerances, frame mfgs and component mfgs need to up their game and produce something that is on a par with the dream they are selling. Instead they blame eachother for not adhering to the tolerances of the standard.
When new standards require tighter tolerances, frame mfgs and component mfgs need to up their game and produce something that is on a par with the dream they are selling. Instead they blame eachother for not adhering to the tolerances of the standard.
#73
Senior Member
Nah, it's sh1t on Alloy frames too.
HillRider is on the money though. It's all to do with poor tolerances. That combined with crappy installs.
HillRider is on the money though. It's all to do with poor tolerances. That combined with crappy installs.
#74
Constant tinkerer
The heart of the problem is frame makers replacing a perfectly good threaded system that's worked for... how long, 100 years? With a stupid press fit system. For what benefit? To save a few grams and make it "stiffer." I'm not going to buy the BS stiffness claims so I'm curious how many grams it actually saves since I'm occasionally a weight weenie.
#75
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The heart of the problem is frame makers replacing a perfectly good threaded system that's worked for... how long, 100 years? With a stupid press fit system. For what benefit? To save a few grams and make it "stiffer." I'm not going to buy the BS stiffness claims so I'm curious how many grams it actually saves since I'm occasionally a weight weenie.
The weight saving has to be minimal and the "improved stiffness" claims have gotten to the absurd level everywhere on the bike, not just the bottom bracket