sandman900ss

I own a vintage Kestrel 200SCI (1995 or so) that I still use and love. I've never felt the Campy brakes were all that great, even with the Dura Ace pads I installed- still strong pull and feel weak. I'd appreciate any advice on my plan to possibly upgrade. Is there a vintage Dura Ace side pull setup available that would be a hassle free install? Or even if there is, am I wasting my time and money here? It's about the last major Campy stuff left, and it's lacking in comparison to the vintage Dura Ace I've already switched to years ago (yes, I prefer a motorcycle right front setup as seen below)

Your helpful thoughts, please?

FBinNY 

IMO three factors determine brake performance.

1- leverage which is a function of both the caliper and lever, and how they add together. In any case, leverage is ALWAYS about travel vs. force, so the first key is to use hardware combinations that open the least that you're comfortable working with. If your brakes open more than about 3mm per side, odds are you can benefit from some extra leverage.

2- shoe friction, which is a function of the show material and rim surface. This is one of the bugbears of rim braking because the shoes that are best dry are often the worst wet. But if you don't ride in the wet, look for a softer stickier shoe, like the original Campys, or KookStop black. Also older shoes harden and lose traction. In your shoes (no pun) I'd take a coarse file to the existing shoes and dress them to bring fresh material to the surface.

3- arm and system rigidity, which tend to waste usable lever travel and force you to compensate. Less rigid arms also want more shoe toe-in to control squeal, and that too means travel lost to flex. Wasted travel means living with closer adjustment and/or less total leverage (see point 1).

I'm currently using Campy Chorus single pivot brakes and find them very satisfactory with my 2001 Chorus levers. Leverage is more than adequate to lock either wheel, and I'm only using about half the available travel.

Though I didn't say specifically, good condition rigid cables are part of the "system" rigidity that gives brakes the positive feel we all look for.

fietsbob

a dual pivot front Brake may be more satisfactory to you


But Like Francis, I too am OK with my old Campag N. 2030 Single pivot brakes .

I found Going Moto the cable line was more convoluted and so Had more drag , the line from Left to front a straighter curve ,

so Maybe your adherence to the other set up needs further re-examination ?

hueyhoolihan

i've got what looks like that campy brake (identical in fact, i was told it was an Athena brake) on one bike and a vintage Dura-ace on another. the only difference i've noticed is that that return spring on the dura-ace is much weaker (not necessarily a bad thing for me) than the campy one.

there's nothing wrong with fixing up a bike with the parts you want, but i doubt you'll notice much difference aside from the return spring. i'm assuming you are talking about the caliper only and potentially replacing it with a single pivot Dura-ace from BITD, because i don't use either the campy lever or the dura-ace lever.

HillRider

As noted those are single pivot brakes and, while perfectly usable, don't have the same "power" for a given lever pressure as newer dual-pivot designs. That is they will stop the bike fine and will indeed lock up either wheel, but it takes more hand pressure to accomplish it than dual pivots. The difference is particularly noticeable on long downhills where you are braking for a prolonged period and the lower effort required by dual pivots is appreciated.

As to a suitable Dura Ace replacement, try to find a pair of BR-7700 or their Ultegra level equivalents BR-6400 calipers. They will work well with your levers. However, are your current brakes long reach (47-57 mm) or short reach (37-47 mm)? Most modern brakes are short reach and long reach dual pivots are not nearly as common.

Finally, Dura Ace brake pads are OK but there are better ones like Kool Stop Salmons. Fitting them to your current brakes may be enough of an improvement to make them satisfactory.

FastJake

Dual-pivot brakes can indeed be an improvement but I'm getting fantastic stopping power out of my Dura Ace 7400 single pivot calipers with Kool Stop salmon pads. I have DA7700 and DA7800 dual pivot calipers on other bikes and frankly I don't think they feel any better.

Ditch the Shimano pads, they suck. Replace with Kool Stop salmon. Changing brakes is not the answer to poor braking performance if your calipers are decent which I think they are. Good pads and excellent cable/housing setup will make even lame brakes work very very well. One the other side of the coin, the best brake in the world will work like crap with garbage pads and poor setup.

FBinNY 

+1 on most of the post except about the pads. I agree that replacing older pads makes sense, and from what I hear Dura pads don't seem to offer the highest friction. But if the OP is not a wet weather rider, he'll get more friction and longer rim life (if it matters) by using KS black pads that Salmon. The Salmon compound is is harder and specifically formulated for improved wet friction, but has lower dry friction and is harder on rims.

The rest is a matter of tuning and optimizing everything to maximize the performance these calipers.

FastJake

I could be wrong, but in my experience the salmon compound is softer and stickier than their black compound. It seems to be very easy on rims as well, barely taking the anodizing off my old Mavic GEL tubular rims after two hard seasons of cyclocross racing. The salmon compound is pretty soft and the pads will get badly torn up by rims with a blip or burr on them. It seems to provide the best stopping power for me, especially in clean dry conditions.

rmfnla

I find all Shimano brake calipers too "squishy".

I use SRAM Force on my Curtlo (with XT MTB levers!) and they stop great...

FBinNY 

I got my info from the site, but also from direct conversation with the folks at Kool Stop when I was one of their distributors. I also have 1st hand experience since I have various copies of their brake shoes on all my bikes, save the one still using the OEM campy shoes.

Of course, what matters is how they actually work for you.

fietsbob

Higher Mechanical Advantage can do that ..

sandman900ss

Great advice, guys- much appreciated. I'm definitely not a wet weather rider so that's not a factor. Seems to be a general agreement that there's nothing inherently wrong with my Campy setup, so I'm going to try a set of those Kool Stop Salmon pads. BTW, sanding the surfaces of the Dura Ace pads never had much of an effect- I literally cannot ever lock up my brakes, and I have a pretty strong grip. I hate the feel as is, and want an improvement this season.

rmfnla

So can inferior design...

fietsbob

Crowbars Vs Teeter totters.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

VERY BASIC MECHANICS

HillRider

My experience mirrors yours. The Salmon pads are relatively soft and very easy on rims, wet or dry. As to durability, mine last many thousands of miles so frequent replacement isn't a problem either.

blamester

I don't use dura ace pads but surely they can't be that bad. You say you have swapped out many parts so maybe you have a lever, caliper mismatch.
Those brakes should be very capable.

rmfnla

Lite vs. stout...

sandman900ss

They're absolutely not. Kool Stop Salmon pads ordered and on the way- I will update when I've intsalled them and grabbed a handful.

sandman900ss

Well gentlemen, I can now state that my weak brakes aren't because of the pads. The Kool Stop Salmon pads are maybe 10% better than what was on there, still unacceptable. These brakes have never been strong no matter what pads are used. Must be the calipers. Not sure what will fit or not fit this vintage Campy mount post setup- Dura Ace BR-7700 side pull short reach maybe? Any Dura Ace? Or just move on and get that sweet Cannondale Synapse carbon that's calling me.

FastJake

I would want to set it up and try it myself... But if you're convinced it's the brakes, any modern Dura Ace will take its place beautifully (DA7400, 7700, 7800, 7900, etc.)

It's probably in this thread somewhere, but what levers are you using? Could be a lever/brake mis-match.

FBinNY 

Do whatever makes you comfortable, but try to understand what calipers do and don't do.

Braking always comes down to friction, which in turn is about the friction properties of the shoe and rim (coefficient of friction), and the force pressing the pad into the rim. Yes, there are other considerations, but they're side issues and I'll come back to them.

So leaving your pads alone, braking is about your hand strength and the leverage built into the lever and caliper. You can calculate this, but the amount the shoe moves with half the lever travel, (the rest is reserve for flex and hand comfort). Ideally, you want the minimum throw that your rim's alignment and flex allows, typically about 2-3/side, or 5mm or so total. Any more, and you're applying less force (travel X input force = travel X output force). Once you understand the rules, it's obvious that it's about geometry, and shoe travel only, and the caliper itself barely makes a difference. Even if the caliper flexes the force remains constant and proportional to your hand strength, which is one reason, I always speak of 1/2 the lever's throw.

So, caliper qulaity doesn't affect braking, but let's get back to the side issues. One big one is rigidity, which greatly affects the smoothness and predictability of the braking action, and the amount of toe-in needed to prevent screeching. Sloppy construction also costs some of the lever throw, and can cause makers to reduce leverage to make up the shortfall.

BUT if the shoe travel is the same, the ratio of brake force to hand force is also the same, regardless of the price, brand or quality of the caliper.

IMO- if you aren't getting adequate braking from those brakes, wither there's a film on the rim or pad surface, or you have weak hands, and changing the caliper won't change either.

Dave Mayer

I have ridden about every good road caliper brake out there including most Campagnolo and Shimano models. Brake pads and cable housings can make a difference, but my recommendation is to install a dual-pivot brake on the front. I see no overlap in the performance of dual and single pivot brakes - it is all up to leverage. The dual pivots simply have longer arms and more mechanical advantage.

So the very best of the single pivot brakes (ever), the Dura-Ace 7402, is still inferior to the cheapest dual pivots I've ridden.

BTW: the very best road brake I've tried is the Dura-Ace 7403 (dual pivot).

rmfnla

You want basic?

I did a basic comparison and tried both Shimano and SRAM calipers with the same levers and the Shimano felt squishy... period.

FBinNY 

Yes, some brakes are more flexible or squishier, but that doesn't affect stopping power. The brake may flex, but the laws of leverage still apply and the force at the shoe is still proportional to the hand force.

Ironically some brakes with greater leverage may feel squishier for that very reason.

blamester

It is worth trying a different wheel.