zjrog

I am updating a late 80s KHS Fiero roadbike. I was going to go cheapish on things, but will spend where I need to. So far, I've purchased a new pair of 700c wheels, that included an 8 speed cassette, while looking in the classifieds for 8 speed shifters, I scored a mini group, Shimano 105 5600 10 speed brifters and deraiileurs. And now, the questions. It has been 20 years since I spent any time wrenching on bikes, and a lot sure has changed.

Can I swap the 8 speed cassette out for a 10 speed cassette? Do I need to re-dish the wheel?

For the 105 sfifters. Do I need specific cables or will generics be OK? (i ask, because I bought new Shimano shifters for an old MTB, they came with cables already)

My crankset is OK, but going 10 speed in the rear has considering changing it out. Is it possible the Sakea 52-39 will work with 10 speed chain? Might I get lucky and the 105 FD sfifts just fine? Or is the old spacing just too wide?

I keep seeing people talking compact cranksets. Please bring me up to speed why this is more than just using smaller chainrings.

I think I have a cool project, yes, 105 stuff changed my plans some. Then again, when I first thought of updating this bike, I gave a little thought to a 1x11 setup. Appreciate your time and consideration.

Standalone 

Because cassettes can go down to 11 teeth, a smaller set of chain rings up front can cover most of the gearing ground needed by recreational/sport cyclists. Smaller = lighter and also winds up providing a wider range that's closer to a triple. Double shifts are easier with STI, etc .. so several reasons combine to create the popularity of the compact double. I don't have one, but this is what I understand.

A new crankset will be "ramped and pinned," meaning that there are computer designed dips and bumps on the facing of the rings that pick up the chain super crisply. Worth $200? Probably.I'm currently running my commuter 2x9 with a Sakae 7 speed era triple crankset, a 9 speed corncob cassette that I had on hand, and some bar end shifters. Lots of things can work together (just check Sheldon Brown's site), but having a full 10 speed setup will give you some remarkable performance improvements in the front shifting, IME.

10 speed cassette will drop right on to your wheel, unless your hub is some bizarro rare thing.

FastJake

1. 10-speed cassette will fit on your wheel without modification. Spacing is narrower so 10 fits in the space previously occupied by 8.

2. You certainly do not need to use genuine Shimano cables/housing. But do make sure to use brake housing for brakes, and compressionless shift housing for shift cables.

3. Changing out the crank is up to you. It should work, but may not shift great. I would try it and see especially if cheap is part of your plan.

4. Standalone describes compact cranks pretty well.

HillRider

I would strongly consider changing your current crank for a more modern one based on both chainring spacing and the greatly improved shifting. Since 10-speed cassettes with 12T and 11T smallest cogs are nearly unavoidable, a 52T big chainring is gives an unusably high top gear for most riders so a compact (50/34) makes a lot of sense.

You can keep cost of the crank change to a very affordable level with a Tiagra FC-4650 crank and a BB-4600 or BB-5700 matching bottom bracket. Wiggle in the UK has them for under $70 for the crank and about $20 for the bottom bracket and the 105 level FC-5750 crank for about $100.

Tim_Iowa

As others have confirmed, the 10s cassette will fit perfectly with no modifications.

Shimano shift cables are universal for MTB and road. You can use the ones you have (if they're long enough).

10 speed chains are narrower than 8 speed chains, so 10 speed chainrings are likewise narrower than 8 speed. You may get lucky, but maybe not. 10 speed chain rings are recommended.

The difference between compact and "normal" (road race) cranksets is the Bolt Circle Diameter (BCD).
Normal/road race cranksets have a larger BCD (for stiffness). Yours uses the Shimano standard of 130 mm BCD, Campagnolo uses 135 mm BCD.
Compact cranks use a 110 mm BCD, which was common for square-taper MTB cranks.
The smaller BCD means you can fit smaller rings. You can't fit smaller than a 38 tooth ring on a 130 mm BCD crank.

So, you could replace your 8s chainrings with 10s ones, but you can't fit much smaller ones on your current crank. Look for a 10s compact crankset if you want smaller chainrings. Compact cranks are pretty popular, so you should be able to find a good deal on one. Lots of folks are upgrading to 11s, so you could probably score a used take-off.

70sSanO

The suggestions about replacing your chainrings with 10 speed is a good one, you may be able to get a 9 speed ring to work, but that is outside of my expertise. Personally a 38/48 or 46 is a nice range.

On your crankset... I'm willing to bet that you have a square taper bottom bracket and I'm not sure how many 10 speed square taper cranksets are out there. Also you may need to get a new bottom bracket as the 80's spindle width may not work with a new crank. But the biggest issue is that the chain may fall between the chainrings, or at the very least float between them. I've gotten a 9 speed chain to work on 7/8 chainsets without an issue, but I'm not so sure about a 10 speed chain. You should probably get a new crankset and bottom bracket that will fit you bike, 68mm probably. Make sure you get a road crank and not a mountain crank as I have had chainline issues.

You can fix your old crank if you are able to figure out a way to make the chainring mounting flange a little thinner so the rings will be closer together. I've done a few things that are pretty far out there but I won't begin to give you my thoughts on it. Maybe someone has come up with a way to do this or maybe it isn't a problem.

John

zjrog

I appreciate all the good info here. Had no idea there different cable housings now. I like cheap, but don't mind spending where I need to. And sounds like the crankset might be a good thing to spend a bit on. Yes, the bike had a 6 speed freewheel and 27" wheels to begin with, and the crank is a square taper. I hadn't considered chainline. Like I said, a lot has changed in 20 years, just catching up...

70sSanO

I'm sending this from my phone so you'll have to google it. If you want cheap, you can go the shiftmate route. Although they seem to have gone up a lot in price since SJS took over production.

You will have to use a 9 speed cassette, but you'll be able to use your 10 speed brifters and existing crank with a 9 speed chain.

I've never used one, but a lot of people seem to think they work well.

John

zjrog

So I scored an Ultegra 10 speed cassette at the local bicycle collective, cleaned it and inspected and installed.

I realize this isn't as clear an image as possible for the chainline, but to me, it doesn't look so bad. I am going to see about using the old crankset. But am ready to look at a compact double if need be.

I have to measure for cable housings so I can get what I need at the LBS without having a lot of cut off waste... Thanks for the advice!

FastJake

This seems like a really bad way to go about it, unless you have some test pieces you can use. Just get several feet of it. It should only be a few bucks. Also: Cables

zjrog

I don't need a lot of housing for the shifters, so a couple feet instead of 6 might be cost effective. Brakes I need a lot more and the shop prices by foot.

Soody

wiggle.com.au | Shimano Tiagra 4650 Hollowtech II 10 Spd Compact Chainset | Road Chainsets
wiggle.com.au | Shimano 105 5750 Hollowtech II Compact Chainset | Road Chainsets
wiggle.com.au | Shimano Ultegra 6750 Hollowtech II Compact Chainset | Road Chainsets

I changed out my square taper crank on my early 90s bike for a Pro-lite hollowtech II compact (same standard as the 10 speed shimano cranks). It was pretty easy. An extra $50 max will get you the tools to get your old crank and BB off and the new one on.

Pro-Lite Resana 10sp Chainset 2013 | Chain Reaction Cycles

That's my crank which suckered me with its sexy looks, but even the tiagra one is the same weight (for 1/4 of the price), and the 105 and ultegra are both lighter.

I find the hollowtech II BB to be excellent so far.

zjrog

So much for budget!!! I like the looks of that Tiagra, even over the 105... I have the tools for removing the old stuff. Left over from my riding days 20+ years ago... OK. How do they manage this capless magic?

Soody

Ha yea... that's always how it is... You can go cheaper than tiagra but you won't get better value.

The driveside crank arm has a hollow axle on it that goes through your frame and bolts to the other crank arm. It's pretty damn cool. The bottom bracket cups sit outside your frame and the axle goes through them.

You just clean up the threads really well (some people say take them to a shop to get faced but i didn't and no problems so far), grease the cups, screw them in, put your driveside crank through the frame, and then bolt the other arm to it.

You need a $15 tool to tighten the bb cups and a $3 tool to tighten your crank

Soody

Also you need to purchase the BB which is $20ish for Ultegra and $19ish for Tiagra and they're all compatible with each other within the hollowtech II world.

wiggle.com.au | Shimano BB-R60 Ultegra 6800/105 5800 Hollowtech ii | Bottom Brackets

I'm not trying to shill for wiggle... I like them but chain reaction cycles, merlin cycles and ribble often have better prices so they're worth checking.

zjrog

Neat trick. Looks like I'm budgetting for more parts...

dedhed

Extra shift housing is good to have "in stock" as the higher speeds (9-11) are a bit more finicky about friction and it pays to replace it more frequently especially at the RD loop which sees more dirt wet etc

dedhed

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...i-s-ergos.html

zjrog

Great point. And yes, I will add to the vintage/STI thread when finished.

zjrog

When I put my FD on the bike, i had never noticed I had a little wobble in the crankset. Enough, that shifting could be a problem. So the old, square taper crankset is gone. I also recently read a good article about shorter crank arms. So for $50, picked up a barely use FSA Vero compact, 50/34 and 165mm arms. Now I need an Isis bottom bracket. My old square taper ball bearing setup is for my 68mm shell, but 110mm wide. My confusion is, to go with a 68x108 or the 68x113. My logic says go with the 113, since I cold set the rear of my bike from 126 to 135 spacing... Thoughts, ideas? Is my logic sound?

FastJake

Are you sure it's ISIS? FSA's website is showing the Vero Compact (and Vero Triple) using a square taper BB: FSA VERO COMPACT - FSA

Also, your original crank was almost certainly of higher quality than a junky bottom-end FSA piece. The wobbling you describe is usually from the chainrings being slightly bent, not the crank itself. This will not affect shifting unless it's bad enough that you get rubbing of the chain on the front derailer. If that happens the rings can be carefully and forcefully bent back into shape.

Bike Gremlin

I'd stick with 8 speeds. Swapped 105 10 speed setup for an 8 speed one. Didn't find 10 speeds to be an improvement.


How many speeds? - Bike Gremlin

cny-bikeman

As noted 10 speed cassettes begin with an 11 or at best 12 tooth cog. Pairing that with a 52/39 will give you not one but several unusable or marginally useful gears. so better to go with a 48 large. But changing as much of the drivetrain as you would need to does not make much sense. I'd go for a nice used bike with 10 already installed.

zjrog

Since I'm reviving an old friend, the KHS, I was going to go with the 8 speed rear that came with some wheels I bought. But the deal I got on the 105 10 speed setup was cheaper than Microshift 8 speed set. And I got an Ultegra 10 speed cluster at the local collective for less than $20. The old crank, while surely solid and dependable, might not accept 8 speed chain much less 10, so I thought this would be a good reason to go with something else.

Now, the FSA set might not be my permanent setup, As I want to try 165mm arms anyway, better to go this way than spend $200 on something I'll hate. I liked a lot of what I read recently about the reduced leverage required to move the shorter cranks, and that can't be all bad. I may wind up going with 170 or 172.5s, but I doubt I run 175s again. My knees aren't getting any younger and I'm over 50 with one replaced already.


So, I can see this isn't square taper, but ISIS. These aren't new, so I have no idea when FSA quit the splines... And for quality, I don't know. But saw an aweful lot of FSA cranks on bikes today at a couple different shops, the over $800 kind of bikes. Interesting, I saw Tektro brakes on a few $600 bikes...


My old crankset wobbles enough to go inside and outside the outer guard on the 105 FD. Unsure if the chainring is bent or not. But as stated, 10 speed chain might slip between rings. So, newer parts.

And, back to my question. If I'm replacing a 68x110 square BB, is my better choice the 108, or 113 width Isis BB?

FastJake

Ah, I see. Must be an older model. Looks nicer than the current "Vero."

The difference between the two BBs is 2.5mm in either direction, so it's not life changing either way. If I were going to choose, I'd go with the shorter one which will of course move the arms a bit closer to the frame. This is for two reasons. One, I like to get more use out of the big ring. If the big ring is closer to the middle of the cassette rather than the outer edge, you can "cross-chain" into the big-big combinations easier rather than shifting into the small ring as much. This of course makes the smallest small-small combinations less useable but I don't care since I never use those anyway. Second, moving the arms closer reduces the q-factor or tread of the crankset which I personally prefer. But everyone is different. Again, this is should not be a deal breaker either way.

Enjoy the 165mm arms and let us know how you like them. I have a 165 crank in a box that I've been meaning to try but I haven't gotten around to swapping yet.