TranceLov3

Hey everyone!

So I noticed a lot of play in my headset today and decided to take it apart to re-grease and generally inspect it.

The bearings seemed all fine (not broken or anything). The steering tube of the fork was though very rusty because it's quite an old bike so I used some sandpaper to get the rust off and after that I re-greased all the parts and put it back together but when I started to tighten the headset cap to get rid of the play in the headset (preload the bearings I guess), the screw bottomed out till the point something would break if I would go any harder on it and there's still a huge amount of play in it. I had the stem loose when I did this and correctly held the fork in place so it couldn't move down at all. I don't think it's caused by the lack of spacers either because there's just about 2-3 mm of room between stem top and fork's steering tube end and it was fine before.

However the "cosmetic" cap of the stem (or headset, idk) had broken off like 3 months before because I had over-tightened it and it was made of plastic so it just popped. Could this be the cause of the play in the headset and should I somehow replace the whole top cap that preloads bearings or is it something else. I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to get the "old" part out of the forks steering tube in the first place. Fork is the RockShox Quadra 21R so quite an oldie. I also had a thought that maybe the headset cap was already integrated with the fork in the first place so I couldn't even replace it anyway but I really don't know.

Also if I'm not mistaken, the fork should hold itself in place after the top bolt is screwed in but in my case the fork would just fall right out even after I had tightened the top cap bolt to place.

As you might see I'm a bit confused what I'm supposed to do next so any help is kindly appreciated.

Thanks!

obed7

Had you retightened the stem?

TranceLov3

yes, of course I did that but the play is still massive.

My guess would be that the preload top cap isn't for some reason serving it's purpose but I have no idea what my next step towards solving the problem should be.

I might get some pictures up tomorrow of the top caps current situation.

bikeman715

When you took the headset apart did you put all the part back together in the same order ? There should be a 3 mm gap between the stem and the steering tube . ( the steering tube should be 3mm below the stem ) . Replace any and all broken parts . Have the bolts on the stem loosen when you set the preload on the bearings with the top cap . When the adjustment is right then tighten the stem bolts . You might of move the star nut in the steering tube , the best thing to do is replace it with a new one and set it to 15 mm from the top .

TranceLov3

Yes, I did put it back together at the same order, I did accidentally put the bottom thing that holds the bearing on backwards at first but I switched it around afterwards. The gap between stem and steering tube is around 3 mm as it should. The only thing broken might be the star nut because it just won't preload the bearings eventhough I did it the right way (loose stem and screw it in and then tighten stem screws).

The thing is I have no idea how to replace the star nut or if it even has a star nut in it currently, it's so old that it might be a different thing but I'm not sure. Maybe I should let my LBS do it or then I could possibly find a tutorial but from what I know you need a special tool to mount the new one.

bikeman715

Yes to me it sound like the star nut need to be replace . If for any reason you can't do it yes take it to your LBS to do . Here how it done ,Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Star Fangled Nut and Expansion Plug Installation . and here a video on youtube . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Dy11NGBIEwhat you looking for start about 1:20 sec in on the video .

obed7

ok, I just re-read your op...if everything was installed correctly and the top cap was in place, the screw can not "bottom" out, it is impossible without snapping the top cap into...and once the stem is tight you should be able to actually take the top cap off without affecting the steering tube bearings...so if you are tightening the screw all the way and not having any effect on the sterring tube, still have wobble and still able to turn the forks, then the star nut has come up inside the steering tube...you can drive it in with a new star nut set to the proper depth... I use a star nut setter but it could be done with out one, it is just easier with one. At this point I would just take it to the lbs and let them set one for you. If you are never going to do it again no use in buying the tool..

TranceLov3

well yes, the screw doesn't exactly bottom out so it would be unscrewable beyond that point, it's just extremely tight already. I don't also exactly have a top cap since it popped off due to overtightening the screw and it was made of cheap plastic, it's hard to explain so would probably need a picture.

Looks like I'm gonna buy a new star nut in this case, eventhough they are extremely overpriced in Estonia, like 5 € each, wtf. But I guess I must live with it then.

I'm gonna post a picture of my stem and top cap in their current state here tomorrow.

bikeman715

I would buy a new star nut and top cap , and that should solve your problem .

hueyhoolihan

if you don't want to buy a starnut, here's what i would do.

if you are right handed, assemble the fork, headset and stem, leaving the two stem bolts loose. push down, hard, on the stem while holding the stem straight WRT the front wheel. with your right hand tighten one of the stem bolts sufficiently to hold the stem in place. take a breath, then tighten the other bolt. check for slop. if not satisfied, loosen the stem bolts and try again.

it might take a few attempts to get it right. and bouncing the front end of the bike off the ground while holding the stem in place, between attempts, may eliminate a consistent looseness.

this process, if successful, does not compromise in any way the security of the headset/stem interface. the top cap and bolt may be attached, after the fact, for cosmetic reasons, if preferred.

Retro Grouch 

Before doing anything else: Carefully measure your bike's head tube front-to-back. Now measure it side-to-side. Those measurements should be exactly the same. I'm betting your's aren't. If that's the case, you have an ovalized head tube from the bike being used with a loose headset.

fietsbob

stem top edge. has to be above the end of the Steerer tube..

SquidPuppet

You don't have a top cap? So you can see right down into the steerer? Something doesn't make sense here.

TranceLov3

I understand it's quite difficult to understand, I'll add a couple of pictures here now.
The thing is that the top cap technically is there but when I remove the bolt, the "cap" won't come out what so ever so I can't even see if I have a star nut there or not. The cosmetic cap that would make it flush with the stem has popped off though.



The headset isn't ovalized either, it measures exactly 45 mm from every single angle measured from the black headset cup, 360 degrees so the diameter is exactly 45 mm.

You can see that the headset cap has some kind of a place where the screw goes into but I can't understand what kind of a mechanism it is because it doesn't look like a star nut to me. MORE PICS:

TranceLov3

I tried it, pushed really hard on the stem and tightened both the stem bolts while doing so and the play is suddenly minimal if not completely gone but I'm not sure of how long term this solution will be? So the problem seems to be somewhat gone now.

Now I'm just curious what the heck is up with that headset cap mechanism because I'm fairly sure now that it ain't a star nut. Maybe it doesn't even set the preload and is just cosmetic and the headset has to be tightened the hard way by pushing down on the stem and then tightening the stem bolts?

Once again it's quite old (almost 20 years now) so it might as well be so but I really don't know how they did things back then (was the star nut design even invented?) because frankly enough I didn't even exist back in those days, it's my dads bike and I'm just riding it till I have enough money to buy myself a somewhat reasonable downhill/freeride bike.

hueyhoolihan

the starnut and the cap are only an assembly mechanism, i wouldn't worry about it. the stem bolts on either side of the stem is what keeps the stem in place and hence, the fork on the headtube.

by looking at a plastic top cap it should be evident that it can't possibly have a critical role in keeping the fork, headset and stem together. i'm sure that if i loosened the stem and pulled upward could easily destroy just about any plastic topcap. but i can't if i don't loosen the stem bolts first. that's because it's the stem bolts that hold everything securely together.

BTW, it looks like you might have an expander plug (usually used in carbon steerer tubes) in there. of course i can't say for sure. and it would be odd indeed if it were, but if it is, and you manage to loosen it, it looks like you'll still have a devil of a time getting it out due to the peened over edge of the steerer tube. ditto, most likely, for a starnut.

TranceLov3

well it's pretty secure now thanks to that tip so should I even worry about it is the question? I think it should be fine, just not cosmetically too pleasing but that's the least of the worries.

Yellowbeard

So wait, your top cap broke and hasn't been replaced? That's the problem. The top cap you broke isn't cosmetic, it was probably just cheap.

The screw pushes the top cap down, which pushes the stem down, which tightens the bearings. Your top cap is gone, so tightening the screw doesn't do anything to the bearing.Get a new top cap and it should work normally.

If you've got the stem on tight now and the bearing isn't loose then it's fine for now.

dr_lha

Get yourself a new top cap now. The one on your bike appears to have been mashed into the stem and is not performing the preload correctly, I'd guess.

speedy25

I think when the OP has his bolt tight, it just the shoulder of the bolt bottoming out on the star nut. As stated before, get another cap for the top so the bolt is up and out of the inside of the fork tube. Try and fix that big ding as best you can. The new cap still has to fit into the top of the steering tube.

-SP

TranceLov3

It's fine for now, I'll look into a new top cap soon, thanks everyone.

cobba

There is no top cap on your steering, a top cap sits on top of the stem.



What you call a cosmetic cap is actually a top cap and it is needed to tighten the steering up.

Get yourself a new top cap.

* The stem bolts need to be loose when you tighten the top cap bolt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P4dYsxazTU

bikeman715

I agree you need to take care of that ding first , then remove what left of your top cap , once you remove the top cap then you should b able to see the star nut ( which yes been around for 20 years or more, they were around before expander plug ) . If you unsure of the star nut it can be replace with a new one . The new one will push the old one down when install . As I stated before replace the star nut and the top cap and you should be fine .

SquidPuppet

If there is any play/slop, do NOT ride the bike. You'll damage things. Get a top cap NOW. They are cheap.

TranceLov3

There is no play anymore thanks to this, from what I understood the end result will be the same as with the star nut. It'll do till i get round to buying a new top cap and let my LBS install it which will still be rather expensive in the end considering that they charge 5€ + for just the star nut without a cap so I'd have to get it from somewhere again and the installation would cost some more since I don't have the proper tool myself. They're like 2€ with cap online but then again the shipping fee, when I buy bulk of something I'll probably get that too.