SquidPuppet

My repairs, adjustments, and upgrades are always flawless.
My repairs, adjustments, and upgrades are always free of labor charges.
My repairs, adjustments, and upgrades are always started the exact moment I deliver the bike.
My repairs, adjustments, and upgrades are always finished exactly when I need the bike.
My bike gets an entire inspection and tune-up, regardless of what I needed, for free.
My Bike is always returned unscratched, cleaner and more quiet than when I delivered it.

My time is very important to me, so I use it to work on my bikes.

Andrew R Stewart 

Or satire. I'll admit that I'm no wordsmith but I do take issue with overly broad statements as I feel the OP's initial one was. As have others. Andy.

Rowan

This is going to upset a few people here, but bicycle mechanics is not a profession. It never has been and never will be. Your post demonstrates the reasons why. Profession and professional, as words, have been prostituted to mean a standard in the modern age, to the point where they don't mean much outside of the true professions.

I also will declare up front that I am a home mechanic, and a bike shop hasn't done any work on any of my bikes for well over a decade.

However, I do recognise the one big issue that hasn't really been covered in this thread -- the fact that shops have to tie in liability insurance to their rates and for the decent ones, the training of their mechanics has to be tied to that duty of care which is owed to the customer.

That's why shop mechanics generally aren't entitled to "gemmy up" a repair that isn't by the book. Us amateurs are able to do what we like and (usually) take responsibility for our cock-ups as well as the successes. But we also are able to come up with creative solutions that shops aren't (usually) allowed by protocols because they are outside the scope of the manuals.

While I haven't used a shop in ages, I do occasionally buy from them. And I do, to an extent, have a sympathy for the position they have been placed in by an antiquated distribution structure, which they seem powerless to change.

But ultimately, for me, it comes down to me having my money and time, and doing with them as I please.

I also have the patience, tools and skills adopted over a couple of decades, as well as the time and interest, to create and work on bikes that are tailored to me (and Machka, which means I also have a duty of care to another person to ensure work that is safe and reliable).

Would I make it in a shop environment? Maybe not. And while I might have a fleeting desire now and then to get into paid bicycle mechanics, I am realistic enough to know my present job, despite its frustrations, pays much better and is more secure. But I do know my bikes run nicely, are super reliable and don't cost a packet of money to build, upgrade or maintain.

CafeVelo

Dave Cutter:
If I recall we live in roughly the same area (greater Dayton, ruralish).
What city did you encounter stoned mechanics in? I can think of two odd shops, one I truly don't like much despite the fact there's nice bikes there, but no stoners. Help me out, it's driving me nuts.

Rowan

i should also add that apart from the liability issue, there are the myriad warranty issues involved. If it's not done by the book in the shop, the warranty becomes a shop responsibility rather than the manufacturer's. Amateur wrenches like me waived warranty as soon as they fit the part to the bike (at least, that is how I regard it and that doesn't bother me in the least).

cale

Right. Because there's never been any trouble with drugs and drug addiction among professionals. Haha

Dave Cutter

Nope. No stoners in the Dayton area that I know of.

Dave Cutter

Your correct! I didn't mean to compare the two... as positions of employment. I meant to logically extend the argument that recreational drugs could be used as a performance enhancer.

daveed

+1 That description fits me to a tee. I own tools and have a work area in my basement. But I keep my bikes well-maintained and therefore rarely have a major problem to fix. When I do, I head to my local bike co-op where I can do the work myself while getting solid advice from a pro.

cale

Your post gave me pause.

dedhed

I just use the LBS for weed not repairs.

Andrew R Stewart 

I don't fully buy into the "by the book" references. Most all the really good and experienced (read "older" shop wrenches) might have initially done some repairs by some manuals (and even that is in doubt sometimes, manufacturer manuals were not a general practice BITD) but quickly recognize that each repair has it's differences and there's a need to drift from some text book set up. A good wrench can do this and still have a result that meets the needs of the rider and that work well.

Then there's the issue of training. Here in the USA we don't even have a system of training in the bike industry for simple bike assemblies. Sure there are classes that one can take but there's no insurance benefits, no industry certifications which hold any liability weight, no restrictions on who can work on what system (other then the shop's choice). I see more of a marketing benefit from these 'classes" then real repair quality ones. Much of the on line "classes" are focused on product knowledge instead of diagnosis and repair.

The best shops that I've worked in (and the worst ones were my employers for only enough time for me to understand the shop's values, or lack of) have in house training and restrictions as to who does which work. This is not dictated by any outside efforts/systems or insurance requirements. But by their motivations to provide the best service they can to each customer balanced with the work load and staff. I have hired many potential wrenches over the years. The best and longest lasting often didn't have much prior experience but were willing to learn and advance at the pace that the shop controlled. Those who disagreed with this didn't stay around too long.

But back to the Op's questions- I think it takes a few years of shop work for someone to get reasonably proficient and productive as well as learn the customer service stuff that's not just nuts and bolts. Few potential workers think this way when they apply for the job. The benefit to go to a quality shop is that the repair will have more then one person involved. Different eyes see things differently and with an experienced staff more then one range of knowledge can be brought to the situation. Simple repairs like flat tires can be done well by young workers who pay attention and want to do a good job. Involved repairs like suspension rebuilding or wheel building takes greater experience and usually is reserved for those wrenches who have shown that they are capable and proficient.

It's much like the hospital reference I first made. The basic care is done by less educated but still trained personal. The more invasive the procedure is the more likely it's being done by the actual doctor, or under their supervision. A good hospital will have many levels of staff contribute to the total service, they will communicate with each other and support each other towards the end result.

And I agree with Cale in that post #51 gave me pause too. When one sees only a limited range of challenges it's not hard to learn how to meet them, especially when that one is also the judge and jury. Andy.

molten

Please Tell me how it is not "as easy."
Too many times one gets the quality that he/she pays for.

Kimmo

Everybody's on drugs, all the time. They're called neurotransmitters.

People like to hang crap on stoners, without acknowledging the booze-soaked baseline perspective. Despite the stoner stereotype, regular weed users are, on the whole, far less impaired than users of other recreational substances. Alcohol causes shocking amounts of brain damage if done hard; no such permanent and devastating effects occur to weed users unless they trigger schizophrenia.

If a stoner doesn't seem to be listening to voices, you can probably rest assured they haven't been seriously demented. But you have no such guarantee with drinkers, who enjoy the camouflage of social and corporate approval, and who can be quietly chipping away at their brain cells to the tune of up to 25% a decade.

Given the choice between a doctor who smokes and one who drinks, I'll take the former, thanks.

Dave Cutter

Yeah.... half a century ago.... that was called the "heads vs juicers" debate. Of course.... it was a silly and pointless debate even a full fifty years ago. Which form of mental impairment is best? Really?!?!?!

Although... I was never "given" much of anything.... I do have the ability to choose what doctor's services I use. My doctor is a friend of mine and like myself he doesn't find a real need to self-medicate.

rodscot

The few repair shops that I have used have been great and have made a great job of fixing my bike. I am having a lot of fun just now overhauling my old bike, but I am not sure that I would strip down my new one in the same way in case anything went wrong and I had to improvise when I find that I dont have the required tools.

Rowan

Well, I know this much. If someone can't be bothered to read the instructions that are made available with each new development, because s/he knows everything, I think I would take my business elsewhere... if I ever thought it necessary to take it to an LBS in the first place.

Fortunately, I am old and wise enough and have made enough mistakes in my life to know that reading the instructions for a first-time encounter is essential.

It's funny how little things slip by even the most experienced shop wrenches who post here. Who would have thought Shimano included the instruction that silicon grease is de-rigeur for shifter and brake cables. But I rarely ever see it mentioned here.

Then there are the ones that don't have instructions, but those of us with field experience know about -- like back in the day when the 9sp Wipperman joiner chain link caused issues on the 11T cog unless it was put on the correct way around. I even had a shop wrench ridicule me in this forum about it... but then it emerged that it was an issue.

On a slightly different tack, a well-known key to success in business is hiring people around you who know more than you do. Then it is up to you to manage them and for you and other staff to learn from them. And unless those businesses have recorded the "manuals and procedures" and continually update them and send personnel to training programs, then the managers leave themselves open to argument that challenges the manager's methods (note, methods, not necessarily practical knowledge). Ultimately, you have a manager who is condescending to anything or anyone that might challenge his/her way of doing things.

On more than several occasions, the question has been asked on BFs about bike shop personnel doing any sort of customer relations training... as in retail training. The answer usually has been a resounding silence, or that condescending reply: "Why would we want to do that?"

By the way, has Barnett's gone out of business? I thought they were the logical portal for anyone wanting to gain qualifications to get into the bicycle industry in North America.

Kimmo

Pissheads are everywhere, and nobody pays it a second thought. I think it's worth remembering that just because some particular state of affairs is the default, that doesn't mean it's any better than a different state.

And this notion that recreational drugs can't enhance some aspects of performance is simply absurd. Why would anyone choose to have a couple of beers if the impairment didn't offer a flipside? What's caffeine for?

What about hallucinogens? There's evidence to suggest that our ancestors wouldn't have hit on symbolic thinking (and thus the serial train of consciousness we consider normal), without shrooms. Those who've never partaken of such are almost certain to scoff, but as most folks who've tripped balls will attest, that's probably just experiential impoverishment talking.

Sixty Fiver

My enthusiasm is what has made this a profession.

Part of that profession is teaching others to help them become more self sufficient and many of those students now work in the bike industry, they tend to be highly regarded mechanics and my reference, or fact they have spent time working at our co-op carries a good deal of weight.

SquidPuppet

I can't tell what your point is.

Andrew R Stewart 

Proving there is more then one way to serve your customer and excel. I do work for and with people who know more then I do. I speak of the entry process to this profession, as that was some of what I took the OP's points to be about. I also agree with the often lacking retail knowledge/application can be lacking. Often to a far greater degree then any mechanical skill. "as well as learn the customer service stuff that's not just nuts and bolts", to quote myself.

The last comment i'll make is about schools (as in Barnetts). I bought into the Barnett system a long time ago. Still have their manuals on my shelves at home. But I see their place as a way to refine and improve preexisting skills more then teach to a blank page (person looking to enter the industry). I have interviewed a number of bike school grads, who had not had shop experience prior to their attending, and found their attitudes to usually be elitist and overly expectant of position and pay. I've even had said grads complain during the interview of the lack of respect shops were giving their schooling (not the method to get hired). Yet I work with a wrench who has attended various programs (here and overseas) and applies his knowledge every day very well.

Well I've beat this topic as far as I wish to. It's off to work now, our weekly staff meeting will start soon. We'll review last week and plan this one. Then i'll likely do the inventory needs and get to repairs before lunch time. Andy.

obed7

I do most of my own work...but as for working on other folks bikes...I do not want the hassle....nor do I want to carry the insurance to cover my butt. Most of the shops in my area have decent mechanics, I do not need to work on my bikes, i just like doing it.

SurfNTurf

..............

asmac

Same here. I know my own bikes very well and can take all the time I want to get things right. It would be another matter to have people bring me random gear with random problems and expect me to fix them quickly and do it right the first time. Also, when it comes to one-off jobs requiring expensive tools or requiring cutting of metal, I defer to the experts.

I may be OK with my own bike (and enjoy working on it) but would last about a minute in a real shop.

JohnDThompson 

The enthusiast has the luxury of time; the shop mechanic has the benefit of experience and the proper tools.