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broken dropout, old steel frame - worth repairing?

Old 07-31-15, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson

TIG weld is probably the fastest and cheapest fix.
Doesn't even have to be TIG. A properly prepped v-seam, a MIG/MAG would do a decent enough job.
Heck, I've seen lasting repairs on steel dropouts done with stick welders.

Ignoring paint, the repair takes minutes for someone with the tools at the ready.

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Old 07-31-15, 02:37 PM
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Was hoping you could at least salvage it as a fixie. The pictures say no chance.
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Old 07-31-15, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
No, the dropout broke at the adjuster bolt hole, so the entire bottom half of the dropout is missing.

TIG weld is probably the fastest and cheapest fix.
Ah, I thought it was just the hanger. Yeah, I agree.
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Old 07-31-15, 02:40 PM
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IIRC, those Treks used castings for their lugs, BBs and dropouts, so it might be easier to braze than weld...
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Old 07-31-15, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Cold setting is probably ok. However, poor dropout alignment could cause stress... perhaps I should start checking my dropout alignments.

But, I'd probably chalk this up as a fluke.

Does your dropout have the adjustment screw? I've heard that is a point of weakness. Welding it, you will probably loose that screw. If it is a newer bike (as opposed to really old), it should have short dropouts, and probably doesn't need the adjustment screw anyway.
i'm realizing this may have been a fluke, although i had a bizarre case where i stood to pedal on a small hill in a rather high gear and pulled the rear wheel forward, out of the dropouts ... wondering if that stressed the area.

i do indeed have the screws, and that's exactly where it broke

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
No, the dropout broke at the adjuster bolt hole, so the entire bottom half of the dropout is missing.



TIG weld is probably the fastest and cheapest fix.
actually the half with the hanger is still attached to the derailleur...however, upon looking at it more closely today and trying to fit the two halves together, i see the screw is gone and so is a decent raisin-sized chunk of metal it was lodged in. Will that make this a much tougher fix, or write the old dropout off as a total loss?

i stopped in to my lbs and they said they send weld jobs to a guy in Manhattan - as it happens i work near him and popped in there first! they said TIG welding the dropout together would be cheaper ($125-150ish, although i didn't know it was missing a chunk at that point, if that matters..), but replacing the dropouts would be stronger ($200-250 if they can locate a replacement, or $300ish if they need to replace both and align everything.

to be honest even $125 is pushing it for me on this one...once it gets over $150 i reckon a new frame makes more sense.
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Old 07-31-15, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rmfnla
IIRC, those Treks used castings for their lugs, BBs and dropouts, so it might be easier to braze than weld...
The OP's dropout is one of the cast dropouts, but I suspect welding would be the easiest fix, provided the OP still has the other piece. Otherwise, he may need to settle for mismatched dropouts or replace both sides to match.
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Old 07-31-15, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pgoat
i do indeed have the screws, and that's exactly where it broke […] actually the half with the hanger is still attached to the derailleur...however, upon looking at it more closely today and trying to fit the two halves together, i see the screw is gone and so is a decent raisin-sized chunk of metal it was lodged in. Will that make this a much tougher fix, or write the old dropout off as a total loss?
No. As noted elsewhere, the adjuster bolt hole is a common failure point, not just on Trek's dropouts, but all dropouts with such holes. If you decide to weld it back together, the welder can fill the missing area with steel. Don't bother with the adjuster bolts. They're not necessary; only a convenience for quickly centering the wheel in the slot. On dropouts that have started to crack but haven't completely failed, I fill the cracks and the hole with brass and toss the adjuster bolts.

N.B. if you do decide to fix it by welding, you may be able to save a little money if you do the work of filing the weld bead flat on the dropout faces instead of paying the welder or bike shop to do it. Be sure to check the dropout alignment before you put everything back together.
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Old 07-31-15, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pgoat
Thanks Ben

I'm kinda torn, I love old bikes but at my age I've had my fun of refurbishing and frankensteining and so forth. I'm kinda at the place of having limited years of spirited riding left and so I'm more inclined to move away from the vintagey smooth rides towards the crisper new bikes. But i totally get what you're saying; I picked this bike up for $200 on CL ten years ago, and at one point had close to $2k in upgrades and whatnot into it. When I started locking it up outside, off came the Brooks and the clipless and so on, and thus lowered my overall investment.

I kinda have been getting the same feeling looking at all the other older steel bikes on CL and ebay. They're beautiful and I know they have a nice ride. But for me, it feels like a step backwards right now.

If I can't fix this safely, and cheaply as some of you seem to be saying, I may just have to suck it up and get something modern/flashy/fragile and just suck it up and lock it up and deal with the inevitable fallout.

Btw, I was fortunate in that for the majority of the last 30 years I've been able to bring my bikes inside my workplace. That is such a Godsend. Locking up on the street sucks.
Until this post, I thought you wanted a structurally sound but non-flashy replacement for your damaged commuter. Now it seems you are leaning toward a new and expensive bike. In either case, do you own or have access to a car? If so, I'd recommend expanding your CL search at least as far an northern NJ. I recently bought my (albeit low-end) 90's Bianchi for $200. Mechanically and cosmetically, it's in great shape. I also bought a Trek 800 mtb for $95. Again, not a high-end bike, but certainly a more-than-adequate commuter. Having never experienced the realm of $1000+ bikes, I'm unspoiled and am quite happy with my two CL finds. In my neck of the woods, no one asks $500 for an 80's bike.

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Old 07-31-15, 06:15 PM
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You're right on there - I have seen decent old bikes for reasonable prices in the areas just outside NYC; I was trying to get to LI to look at a very nice Nishiki a few weeks back and just could not manage it (no car, would have involved trains, cabs and walking for miles).

It's complicated, I really don't want a new bike at all, I'd love to just commute with whatever I have, but the lock up makes it tough to have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 07-31-15, 06:18 PM
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I'm nearby and have a Trek frame I'd trade for some parts or what have you.
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Old 07-31-15, 06:26 PM
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Personally I'd probably have it repaired if possible for around the money you mentioned, since I agree those are nice frames. But.. while that is going on I would buy a replacement bike. Since you can now buy definitely rideable bikes for pennies on the dollar on CL, I'd find something on there.
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Old 07-31-15, 08:46 PM
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I think I have one of those dropouts in stock from a 1986 Trek 400T elance a tube broke on. I unbrazed all the lugs and dropouts in the intention of making keychains etc out of them when I had nothing better to do. I believe the DS dropout is hanging off the light over my bench at work. You can check the vintage trek site or maybe John Thompson can verify the angles are the same or "close enough". You could have it for postage if I still have it. I know I made one keychain and gave it to one of my reps but I think that was the NDS.

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Old 07-31-15, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dedhed
I think I have one of those dropouts in stock from a 1986 Trek 400T elance a tube broke on. I unbrazed all the lugs and dropouts in the intention of making keychains etc out of them when I had nothing better to do. I believe the DS dropout is hanging off the light over my bench at work. You can check the vintage trek site or maybe John Thompson can verify the angles are the same or "close enough". You could have it for postage if I still have it. I know I made one keychain and gave it to one of my reps but I think that was the NDS.

Dedhed, I truly appreciate that! If you do have it and it would work on my bike, I think I'll take you up on that very thoughtful offer.

According to the '86 brochure, the 500 and the 400T did indeed share the same geometry...I'm just wondering whether the frame size matters? Again, this is the 19" model (second smallest of six sizes offered).
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Old 07-31-15, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by exmechanic89
Personally I'd probably have it repaired if possible for around the money you mentioned, since I agree those are nice frames. But.. while that is going on I would buy a replacement bike. Since you can now buy definitely rideable bikes for pennies on the dollar on CL, I'd find something on there.

I agree, I need to get a backup commuter. I used to have this bike as a nice comfy steel bike for long slower rides, and a faster newer road bike (I'd use when I felt like pushing it on a weekend ride) and a mountain bike (my previous primary commuter); the Trek fit nicely between in that it was fast enough to hang very nicely on club rides, but sturdy enough to commute on - very versatile. Whereas the other two bikes were very purpose-specific.

I love commuting by bike so much that even having the main bike down for repairs for a week or two drives me nuts!
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Old 07-31-15, 09:15 PM
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Mine was a 21" and I misspoke it was a 1987 but the frame wasn't changed 86-87 just colors. I'll try to remember to check on Monday, maybe send myself an email reminder.
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Old 07-31-15, 09:43 PM
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I believe the 500 was replaced by the 560 in '87, but the 400Ts certainly look the same more or less as the 86s. Oddly, Trek still lists the 500 model on the same geometry chart with the 400s...even though a 500 does not appear in the catalog.

The 21" was the next size up, so my guess would be they'd match, no?
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Old 08-01-15, 06:43 AM
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Look on the inside of the drop out and see if it has a number cast in it which I believe to be the angle
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Old 08-01-15, 08:33 AM
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thanks - it definitely did have a number ; i will double check asap.
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Old 08-01-15, 09:54 AM
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it's stamped # 62


I managed to unscrew and remove the derailleur and once again tried hand-joining the two halves of the upper dropout and lower fragment with RD hanger. I now see why it appeared there was a chunk missing; yes, there may have been some metal lost when the screw area died, but not nearly as large an area as I originally thought I saw.

With the RD removed, I could see that the hanger portion had twisted and bent before shearing off (not surprising, of course). I mean it's bent and twisted to the degree that it is difficult to join the two pieces smoothly, as you would with, say, a cleanly broken tea cup handle.

The lower busted off hanger fragment looks a bit warped, I'm afraid, with the RD mounting hole portion pulled noticeably inward (as if pulling in towards the wheel's spokes)...so correct me if I am wrong, but that makes it a clear case of needing a new dropout entirely, yes? My guess is even if a welder can join the two halves, aligning the rear end for shifting and a straight chainline would be difficult or impossible
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Old 08-01-15, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pgoat
....My guess is even if a welder can join the two halves, aligning the rear end for shifting and a straight chainline would be difficult or impossible
The right way to do the job is to straighten the damaged area and align everything, and fixture it that way before welding. Then a minor tweak may be done afterward if it's necessary, but nothing worse would be needed.

If the remaining section of your hanger is hopeless, a hanger can be cut from any similar dropout (need not be identical). Keep in mind that a welded hanger will not be as strong as a complete dropout replacement would be, but no great strength is needed, as witness all the aluminum hangers out there these days.

I don't know if he welds hangers or only does replacements, but you can send a photo of the broken dropout to Andy at Yellow Jersey in Wisconsin. He does excellent work at reasonable prices which might make a repair feasible.
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Old 08-01-15, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by pgoat
The lower busted off hanger fragment looks a bit warped, I'm afraid, with the RD mounting hole portion pulled noticeably inward (as if pulling in towards the wheel's spokes)...so correct me if I am wrong, but that makes it a clear case of needing a new dropout entirely, yes? My guess is even if a welder can join the two halves, aligning the rear end for shifting and a straight chainline would be difficult or impossible
It's possible that the reason the dropout broke is because the derailleur went into the spokes at some point and bent the dropout and started a crack at the adjuster bolt hole. Those cast dropouts were difficult to align even when intact, and when re-welded might not be strong enough to withstand re-alignment.

Here's a possible approach: get the dropout re-welded and check the tab alignment. If it's way off, cut off the hanger tab and use a bolt-on claw, as was suggested above.
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Old 08-01-15, 11:28 AM
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If the OP's derailleur fell off just because he/she shifted in to the big ring suggests that the dropout is badly fatigued. Because wear is typically balanced, I'd also regard the non-drive-side drop out with similar suspicion. OP, I think that old Trek frame is trying to tell you something.
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Old 08-01-15, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cale
If the OP's derailleur fell off just because he/she shifted in to the big ring suggests that the dropout is badly fatigued. Because wear is typically balanced, I'd also regard the non-drive-side drop out with similar suspicion. OP, I think that old Trek frame is trying to tell you something.
Steel only becomes fatigued when bent past its yield point. While dropping the derailleur into the spokes can bend the drive side dropout in this manner, there's nothing on the non-drive side to do the same, so the non-drive side dropout will be fine.
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Old 08-01-15, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Steel only becomes fatigued when bent past its yield point. While dropping the derailleur into the spokes can bend the drive side dropout in this manner, there's nothing on the non-drive side to do the same, so the non-drive side dropout will be fine.
+1, the accidental breaking on one dropout has nothing to do with the other. To think so. would be like thinking that if you broke your right leg skiing, your left leg is probably also weak.

Side note to the OP -- if you have this welded, have the welder set a pin or small cap screw inside the slot, to position the axle where you want it. Then the left side micro adjust can be used to fine tune centering. Alternatively, he can fill some of the back of the slot moving the dead stop to where you want it, while also strengthening the dropout.
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Old 08-01-15, 03:42 PM
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You use an emergency derailleur hanger to continue using the bike before deciding on a permanent solution.

Problem Solvers

This is like using a claw but more expensive. Its advantage is that it will not interfere with the axle position in the dropout.
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