Chain lube: Why so passionate?
08-26-15, 07:03 PM
#51
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It shouldn't even be an argument over "lube". This is kinda discriminatory, as most people know that bacon fat works best.
08-26-15, 08:43 PM
#53
Interocitor Command
I can't speak for anyone else, but as a recreational fair weather rider I'm not too passionate about chain lubes or chains in general. However, I am passionate about wiping down the chain frequently as I don't like a dirty chain or drivetrain. When I get back from a ride I'll typically flip the bike over and wipe down the chain while I'm sipping some cold water and taking off the helmet and gloves. It only takes a few seconds.
08-26-15, 11:56 PM
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I've seen the same kind of passionate threads that go on forever about firearm lubes and bore cleaners. I don't know if it's something about lubes, but agree that probably it's just that it's something we all have to do so have developed preferences/opinions over time and internet communications tends to bring out the "best" in us.
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08-27-15, 12:31 AM
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NOPE! You're all wrong and wandering in the dark. Lard, in particular mangalitsa lard, works best as a chain lubricant. And, like butter, you can spread it on toast. Or have your own crisco party and spread it all over your body. Multi use is best.
08-27-15, 01:39 AM
#56
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Umm…you know that ATF is just mineral oil with friction additives, right? Also gunsmiths who use a concoction they call Ed's Red, which has ATF in it, found that the ATF was ruining Glock firing pins. I wouldn't use ATF on a bicycle chain.
Read this to understand why:
drivelinenews.com » Friction Modifier Differences
ATF has friction modifiers in it to increase the friction incrementally for the torque convertor and steel composite clutches. Putting ATF on a bicycle chain makes not sense. You're putting a concoction on that includes a friction causing additive, but you think its a lubricant. That makes no sense.
Its a great piece on why ATF composition is being challenged by cars with flappy paddle autochanging gearboxes with 7, 8 or more gears. You can get a Mercedes four door business/family coupe with more Horsepower today than just about any Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Porsche had in the 70s. Interestingly the article makes the point that motor oils are becoming simpler while formulating ATF fluids is becoming a delicate balance. Interesting read.
However, the takeaway is to NOT use ATF on a bicycle chain. There is no need for the friction additives, the surfactants, and the anti-wear agents (also INCREASES friction). You want a lubricant, not a composite chemical hybrid like ATF, trying to do ten things at once.
Read this to understand why:
drivelinenews.com » Friction Modifier Differences
ATF has friction modifiers in it to increase the friction incrementally for the torque convertor and steel composite clutches. Putting ATF on a bicycle chain makes not sense. You're putting a concoction on that includes a friction causing additive, but you think its a lubricant. That makes no sense.
Its a great piece on why ATF composition is being challenged by cars with flappy paddle autochanging gearboxes with 7, 8 or more gears. You can get a Mercedes four door business/family coupe with more Horsepower today than just about any Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Porsche had in the 70s. Interestingly the article makes the point that motor oils are becoming simpler while formulating ATF fluids is becoming a delicate balance. Interesting read.
However, the takeaway is to NOT use ATF on a bicycle chain. There is no need for the friction additives, the surfactants, and the anti-wear agents (also INCREASES friction). You want a lubricant, not a composite chemical hybrid like ATF, trying to do ten things at once.
Last edited by mtnbke; 08-27-15 at 01:46 AM.
08-27-15, 03:01 AM
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you guys can argue all you want but the published data shows only a few watts difference between 20 or so lube choices which cover 90+% of what most people are using.
I'm sure it's important if you're about to enter an important TT but for most of us it's not worth stressing over. But for those who insist on using a skin suit for training and casual rides by all means break out the magic lube and make sure your legs are freshly shaved
08-27-15, 03:58 AM
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The sounds I hear from others bikes, has me believing there are a lot of people with no clue a chain lube is needed.
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08-27-15, 08:09 AM
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There is no perfect lube. Just ideal lubricants for different situations that can be affected by weather, temperature, user, gravity, environment, placement, frequency of use, and much more.
I use four different 'chain lubes' (oils, which have uses beyond only chains), four different greases (higher viscosity friction inhibitors than oils used), two different anti-seizes, and two different corrosion inhibitors in my bicycle tool box.
The last time I used one of the 'chain lubes' was in a freehub and housing.
I use four different 'chain lubes' (oils, which have uses beyond only chains), four different greases (higher viscosity friction inhibitors than oils used), two different anti-seizes, and two different corrosion inhibitors in my bicycle tool box.
The last time I used one of the 'chain lubes' was in a freehub and housing.
08-27-15, 08:14 AM
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That was me you heard as you passed me...Brand new rider (just got my bike in early June) who had no idea this was needed. But I started hearing an increasingly squeaky noise and started investigating and reading. Yesterday I lubed the chain with some 3-in-1 oil I had around the house and today the only sounds I'm hearing are my tires on the road and my own heavy breathing. Thanks!
08-27-15, 08:20 AM
#63
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But, even though I do use Sram chains, I don't use the ones that are only cosmetically enhanced. The plain, unplated ones work just as well. Shifts are crisp and quick.
Wrong. Read the OPs original post. Context is key.
Hey said "as long as the chain wasn't squeaking [he] didn't see the need to apply lube every 100 miles…" So in fact the EXACT context of the conversation was that he was making the point that a chain shouldn't be lubricated on a consistent schedule.
Hey said "as long as the chain wasn't squeaking [he] didn't see the need to apply lube every 100 miles…" So in fact the EXACT context of the conversation was that he was making the point that a chain shouldn't be lubricated on a consistent schedule.
I did a 1500 mile tour around Lake Erie this spring. I lubricated my chain (maybe) 3 times because that's all that was needed.
You're happy with the shifting performance of chains that fit your budget. Good. Some cyclists want a different standard of performance from their bikes. That's why some cyclists are on $100 bikes and others are on $11000 bikes. Yes there is a range of shifting performance. However, for most cyclists acceptable shifting is not simply whether the bike eventually changes gears when you shift the lever.
Again, wrong. See the point above about the OPs original post, however more to your point here I don't think you understand the difference between a Dry/Clean chain lubricant, a hybrid chain lubricant, and a Wet chain lubricant. In an environment where its really dusty and dirty like mountain biking in Grand Junction, Fruita, or Moab where there really is no moisture a Wet chain lubricant would wear out components faster from capturing all that dirt, dust, sand and grit like you pointed out. However, anyone who understood anything about chains and lubricants would NEVER use a Wet lubricant like that, what you call an "oil lube." It is exactly the wrong chain lubricant for the context. Context is key. What you'd use in that environment is a Clean/Dry lubricant like White Lightning Clean Ride.
However you are wrong if you believe that people "NEVER" use a wet lubricant in desert riding. They do it all the time. I always suggest that people who live in the southwestern US use dry lubricants but many people insist that drowning out the sound of a chain is the key to a "well" lubricated chain.
I get the sense you don't understand the differences between different types of chain lubricant. Hope this helps:
White Lightning - Compare Our Lubes
I think you misunderstand the debate regarding chain lubricants if you think using a Wet "oil" lubricant in a dirty environment means not oiling your chain as often. The debate in that context would be WHICH of the dry lubricants to use, as most people would already understand not to use a Wet or "oil" lubricant in that context. The debate is then about which brand of Dry/Clean lubricants to use. In a cleaner cycling environment, to give you a proper context, to discuss Wet or "oil" lubricants and which to use that would like for a brevet while Randonneuring, where the ride will be several hundred miles in wet weather (the most famous Paris-Brest-Paris at 1200km). That's where you debate WHICH wet ("oil") lubricant to use, as anything Dry/Clean isn't going to hold up to that mileage and expected rain/moisture. In between lies the hybrid lubricants with properties of the Wet and the Dry, but not as optimal as either in extreme conditions.
White Lightning - Compare Our Lubes
I think you misunderstand the debate regarding chain lubricants if you think using a Wet "oil" lubricant in a dirty environment means not oiling your chain as often. The debate in that context would be WHICH of the dry lubricants to use, as most people would already understand not to use a Wet or "oil" lubricant in that context. The debate is then about which brand of Dry/Clean lubricants to use. In a cleaner cycling environment, to give you a proper context, to discuss Wet or "oil" lubricants and which to use that would like for a brevet while Randonneuring, where the ride will be several hundred miles in wet weather (the most famous Paris-Brest-Paris at 1200km). That's where you debate WHICH wet ("oil") lubricant to use, as anything Dry/Clean isn't going to hold up to that mileage and expected rain/moisture. In between lies the hybrid lubricants with properties of the Wet and the Dry, but not as optimal as either in extreme conditions.
If a ride is wet enough to remove a dry lubricant, it is wet enough to remove a less viscous wet lubricant. In a very wet ride where water is dripping from the bike, water is going to wash out the lubricant and will serve as the lubricant on the chain. Given the carriers in any chain lubricant, they aren't going to be able to displace the water from inside the chain. The oil or wax in lubricants is less dense than water as are the common solvents used to thin out the oils.
I also doubt that people who ride the Paris-Brest-Paris are stopping 7.5 times to lubricate their chains...following your above arbitrary schedule. I doubt that are stopping at all to lubricate their chains.
You use cheap chains, that's your choice. However, on a high-zoot Campagnolo equipped 10/11 bike I think its idiocy to run a cheaper chain. I built a bike for my Dad with Campy Record 10 derailleurs, and the mechanic that he had install his crank wanted to install and cheap KMC chain. The wrench's point was "why spend the extra money" on a Campy chain. The point is that this wrench didn't have a Campagnolo equipped bike, let alone a 10-speed one. The wrench doesn't ride on high-zoot stuff. The wrench lives an existence *****ing and moaning about cyclists in their community being sold expensive components that "they don't need" from our conversations. What that wrench doesn't understand is the lifestyle of the people having him do work on their bikes. He understands the lifestyle of making a couple of bucks here and there working on bikes. He made his choices. His customers may not be as "authentically" living the car free lifestyle as he is, they may not have the stable of bicycles that he has, but they pretty much all have better bikes and better components because, quite simply, they can afford it. He thinks spending $20-30 more to get a Campagnolo chain is just madness. He thinks buying a $200 cassette to save a bit of weight and get a performance margin that the cyclist riding the bike can't probably ever find is madness. He doesn't realize they also drink nice bottles of wine that cost more than his shifters, that their cars cost more than his apartment would cost if he owned it as a condo, and that they'll sell the bike for $300 on Craigslist (with the high zoot components) for a giveaway price when they get a newer one in a year or so, and sell it for a price he thinks someone buying it "ripped them off." They don't need the money, and its an old used bike to them at that point. Campagnolo chain on a Campy bike. SRAM chain on an SRAM bike. SRAM or Shimano on a Shimano bike. Mavic chain on a Mavic bike, if you're still living like Lemond and Sean Kelly on your Mavic SSC, Zap, or Mektronic components.
I use inexpensive chains because they work. I can afford to use more expensive chains...and look down my nose at those who live a less afluent lifestyle than I do...but I don't see the need. I also don't see the need to look down on my fellow humans. I donate my Saturdays...every Saturday... and my money to helping those on the margins of society keep the only vehicle that they can afford operating. I am fortunate that I can do this and, yes, my success in life is based on my own hard work and dedication but I could just as easily have ended up like so many I see at my co-op. I'm not better than them, only luckier.
Keep your bottles of wine, your expensive cars and your holier then thou attitude. Perhaps you should spend a bit of your money on getting a clue.
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 08-27-15 at 08:36 AM.
08-27-15, 08:31 AM
#64
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For some dudes, their choice of lube makes a huge difference
08-27-15, 08:36 AM
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Why don't you use a KMC or SRAM quick link on Shimano chains?
08-27-15, 08:50 AM
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08-27-15, 08:51 AM
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That was me you heard as you passed me...Brand new rider (just got my bike in early June) who had no idea this was needed. But I started hearing an increasingly squeaky noise and started investigating and reading. Yesterday I lubed the chain with some 3-in-1 oil I had around the house and today the only sounds I'm hearing are my tires on the road and my own heavy breathing. Thanks!
You had the common sense to question and investigate, some I hear sound like they have been dry since last summer.
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08-27-15, 09:34 AM
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08-27-15, 09:49 AM
#69
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I have in the past but lately they have given me trouble and won't connect. I'm also somewhat opposed to making bicycling into a monoculture and having everything come from Shimano. They make good bike stuff but they don't need to make all the bike stuff.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
08-27-15, 09:54 AM
#70
Senior Member
I like the old-school chain lube: wax. I've also used products like ProLink Gold, White Lightning, and others. They all work well if used frequently.
What I don't like over cleaning a chain with degreasers. I'd rather have a slightly dirty chain that is lubricated than a shiny super-clean chain that is lacking lube where it's needed.
I get at least 4K miles on a chain.
What I don't like over cleaning a chain with degreasers. I'd rather have a slightly dirty chain that is lubricated than a shiny super-clean chain that is lacking lube where it's needed.
I get at least 4K miles on a chain.
08-27-15, 10:11 AM
#71
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It remains IMO that when it comes to chain lubes, as they say a sucker is born every minute. The fact is a chain is a machine, and it only needs oil. And that means just a good quality oil. Bike shops and shills for obscenely priced so called "bike chain miracle lube" are only separating cyclist from a large amount of their money.
And yes after spending big bucks they are passionate about the fact they used the "best" lube there is.
And yes after spending big bucks they are passionate about the fact they used the "best" lube there is.
08-27-15, 10:22 AM
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It's funny, lube zealots spend so much time talking/posting about how they switched from lube A to lube B and now hardly ever have to re-lube, if they just stuck with lube B and shut up about it they'd save more time!
08-27-15, 10:25 AM
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The easiest and surest way to not be a chain lube zealot is to be in the chain lube business. That'll cure it for sure.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
08-27-15, 11:10 AM
#74
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
You use cheap chains, that's your choice. However, on a high-zoot Campagnolo equipped 10/11 bike I think its idiocy to run a cheaper chain. I built a bike for my Dad with Campy Record 10 derailleurs, and the mechanic that he had install his crank wanted to install and cheap KMC chain. The wrench's point was "why spend the extra money" on a Campy chain. The point is that this wrench didn't have a Campagnolo equipped bike, let alone a 10-speed one. The wrench doesn't ride on high-zoot stuff. The wrench lives an existence *****ing and moaning about cyclists in their community being sold expensive components that "they don't need" from our conversations. What that wrench doesn't understand is the lifestyle of the people having him do work on their bikes. He understands the lifestyle of making a couple of bucks here and there working on bikes. He made his choices. His customers may not be as "authentically" living the car free lifestyle as he is, they may not have the stable of bicycles that he has, but they pretty much all have better bikes and better components because, quite simply, they can afford it. He thinks spending $20-30 more to get a Campagnolo chain is just madness. He thinks buying a $200 cassette to save a bit of weight and get a performance margin that the cyclist riding the bike can't probably ever find is madness. He doesn't realize they also drink nice bottles of wine that cost more than his shifters, that their cars cost more than his apartment would cost if he owned it as a condo, and that they'll sell the bike for $300 on Craigslist (with the high zoot components) for a giveaway price when they get a newer one in a year or so, and sell it for a price he thinks someone buying it "ripped them off." They don't need the money, and its an old used bike to them at that point. Campagnolo chain on a Campy bike. SRAM chain on an SRAM bike. SRAM or Shimano on a Shimano bike. Mavic chain on a Mavic bike, if you're still living like Lemond and Sean Kelly on your Mavic SSC, Zap, or Mektronic components.