bananabacon

Us an 11 speed in a 126mm wheel possible with enough true and dish? The wheel in question would be a 130mm Shimano 105 sized to 126mm via a wheel builder. But is 11 speeds enough to go over the limit?

FastJake

8/9/10 speed is too much for 126mm. That's why they never went beyond 7-speed in that O.L.D. 11-speed in 126mm is the worst idea ever. Even worse than 11-speed is to begin with.

bananabacon

Well that's one way to put it.
Is there a why?
Like just to much tension pulling on way or not enough range for a derailleur to move?
Why would 11 sped be a bad idea? To thin of gears to close to each other?

If going above 8 is such a bad idea, why is the 8 of 9 or 9 of 10 method explained by Sheldon brown? That is, if it has a chance to asplode.

Wanted 11 because of the 105 group set buy on probikekit. It'll come with 11 speed shifters. But there is no way to make an 11 speed shifter shift like an 7/8/9 speed.

Coal Buster

Even if you got it dished enough to fit, your derailleur would hit the spokes.

FastJake

The wheel will be excessively dished - way too much tension on the right side spokes, not nearly enough on the left. In fact, now that I think about it, it might be physically impossible to dish an 11-speed wheel that far.

The 8 of 9 and 9 of 10 method by Sheldon puts 8 cogs of a 9-speed cassette on a 7-speed body and 9 cogs of a 10-speed cassette again on a 7-speed body. The width of the freehub body is key. 7-speed bodies are a certain width, 8/9/10 speed bodies are wider, and 11-speed bodies are a bit wider still. I suppose you could do Sheldon's method with an 11-speed cassette. You would probably fit 9 or 10 cogs on a 7-speed body to fit into 126mm.

I have a personal objection to 11-speed based on the incredibly stupid (in my opinion) "more is better" philosophy that is used to sell everyone the latest and greatest crap that they don't need. 11-speed wheels are more dished and therefore weaker. And as the chains get thinner and thinner everything costs more and wears out sooner.

Finally, why not spread the dropouts to 130mm? If the frame is steel it's a no-brainer. If it's aluminum you have to think about it but I've done it without issue and the general consensus seems to be that it's fine.

ThermionicScott 

+1, just spread the dropouts if you "need" 11 speeds.

mtnbke

You can get a 130mm hub onto a 126mm spaced bike. Even something aluminum like a Cannondale. You are only moving the rear chainstays 2mm on either side. Check out the C&V forums. Many of us ride 126mm spaced aluminum Cannondale bikes and use 130mm hubs. If you have a steel bike its a non-issue, not that the Cannondales are an issue.

If you really want to convert a 130mm hub to 126mm its pretty easy. I think from memory an Ultegra 6500 10-speed hub has 2mm spacers on either side interior of the locknuts. Take out those spacers and you have a 7/8/9/10 126mm free hub. You could run that as "10 of 11" using 11 speed kit, leaving one cog out. Or you could find an 11 speed hub that has symmetrical spacers to convert, if there are any.

However, regardless of what bike you have, you can probably fit a 130mm hub into the 126mm spacing with no issues.

Homebrew01

Yup, doesn't require any thinking. Either cold set ( if steel), or spread a bit each time you insert the wheel.

mtnbke

Be careful with your language there. You NEVER cold-set aluminum bikes. You simply just put in a 130mm hub into the dropouts without spreading anything. If that's what you meant, okay, but it seemed your post could also be read that you spread or cold-set an aluminum bike to 130mm, which you would never do.

I agree with you that this madness from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9 to 10 and to 11 is idiotic. Drivetrains get more and more finicky the more cogs you use. Up to 10 speed the inner dimension of the chain stays the same, its just the outer links get thinner. That means chains get weaker regardless of the marketing propaganda you read about chains using "better" metallurgy with 9/10 speeds. High end chains were always using good/best metallurgy. Rings and cogs have to be thinner with 9/10/11 and chains/rings/cogs wear faster as result. Shifting performance is fussy requiring constant adjustments to keep things shifting smoothly.

8 speed is probably best. Bombproof chain/cog/ring width and cogs are spaced far enough away from each other to not be finicky for indexing.

Lots of people run 7/8/9/10 speed drivetrains by coaxing a 130mm hub into 126 spacing, with no issue whatsoever. You don't need to resort to Sheldon's "8 of 9" or "9 of 10" method with either a steel or aluminum bike. Sheldon was just being cute. A steel bike can easily be cold set (with the right tools) to 130mm. An aluminum 126mm bike will take a 130mm hub, many of us do this. No one has had an issue yet.

bananabacon

To be honest I struggle to use all 7 speeds on my bike right now. I'm hardly on the 26 and 12 tooth cog.

As one wise person said before "races were one and crucial time trials were won on boat ankers with 5-7 speeds in the past.

For arguments sake. What if one were to buy a 130mm wheel. The logical reason would be to avoid buying a used wheel and also to have the luxury of an up to date part. There are only a handful of 126mm wheels out there today. I'm sure they function great, but one would rather get an up to date Shimano....

What are the taboos of buying a 130mm sizing it to 126 and replacing the body with a vintage hyperglide and performing the 8 of 9 or 9 if 10?

Also I have the Shimano 105 1055 hubs. Is it more realistic to rebuild regrease the vintage hubs. Buying rims and buying spokes.and having a wheel builder build the wheel? It would be about the same price to do it this way give or take.

Homebrew01

Not all hub are resizable so double check before buying.

I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish. Whatever it is, it's a lot more work than I would do to ride a bike.

Aladin

Bold mine. I do believe 'some' have had issues.. 'no one' means a zero which I believe is misstated.

Suggest some sense for each situation: some al frames allow easy insertion of 130's into rears supposedly at lesser dimensions. I've observed otherwise too... frames that were very tight-- one Cdale in particular that gave voice when the 130 came out... wayy too tight... this scenario to be avoided.

CliffordK

I mounted an off center rim with a 9s cassette on my Colnago (126 OLD) which I've been riding for the last year. Dishing did get a bit steep which caused an old bent derailleur hanger to show up, and clearances are quite tight. But once the hanger was fixed, it has been working great.

I haven't tried 11s yet, but it certainly would be worth trying WITH THE OC RIM.

I believe Campy uses the same freehub with both 10s and 11s.

Shimano uses a new freehub, but there have been some people who have trimmed some backspacing off of the Shimano 11s cassettes to squeeze them onto a 10s freehub, so that might be another option.

Aladin

Not... 126 allows 8-10... IF.. derailleur clears the spoke bed.. more dependent on the width/style of the rear derailleur cage. All one is doing is removing 4mm of spacing left side. I've clipped a few 130's down to facilitate easier insertion of the rear into older steel frames... usually easily done.

But YES.. 11's are sure lunacy. More the checkbook/sheep types.. gotta have what his proctologist has ....etc... good for our economy.

FastJake

Sorry, I did not mean cold-set. I simply meant pulling the frame open each time to squeeze the wheel in. You are correct, never cold set an aluminum/carbon frame.

Hey look, something we agree on. All my bikes are 7 or 8 speed and I have no intentions on "upgrading." If money were no object, I would still track down the nicest 8 speed parts I could find and use them.

HillRider

I have 12x27 or 13x29 10-speed cassettes and triple cranks on my bikes and have used every gear in the range at some point. How much range and how many gears you need depends on where you ride and how young and strong you are. I had a bike in Florida for a while and could go on 40+ mile rides and shift maybe twice but that bike and gearing would never work at home.
True, but what that "wise person" didn't mention was at that time all of the other competators were on the same boat anchors and 5-7 speed freewheels too.

70sSanO

There is always the option of running 10 speed spacing on you existing 7 speed freehub with less than 10 speeds. I have not taken the time to see what cogs can be pulled off. I think they are riveted to a spider in groups of 2. If this is the case you may be able to run 8 of the 10 speeds on your existing 7 speed freehub. Sheldon Brown's cassette cribsheet can give you the overall width of and cog to cog spacing so you can figure it out.

While I wouldn't go to 10 speed, there is some merit is that the 10 speed brifters are a lot better than original 7 speed brifters, or the newer Tourney 7 speed.

John

Edit added... I suppose you could do the same with 11 speed components, but I really haven't taken the time to even look at any component changes that would prevent this from working.

fietsbob

A spokeless solid carbon fiber flat disc wheel wont suffer the dish problems that all spoked wheels will ..

the lack of the eggbeater turbulence of a spoked wheel will also lower your Time trial times over the length of that test.

11 speed upgradeitis reminds me of Spinal Tap the film , it goes to 11, man, it's gotta be better . louder than 10 ..

bananabacon

Lots of good stuff here thank you all for your help.

Microshift makes some clones for Shimano and Sram. I haven't read to much about the quality but they do have 7/8/9 speed shifters with either 2xY or 3xY (Y= the amount of rear speeds) set ups.

The frame is neither alu or steel. It is Carbon with the notorious aluminum lugs held together with Bondo.. err I mean high tech resin glue aerospace stuff...

Would Carbon itself be flexible enough to take the bend? I remember reading long ago somewhere that a rider had done so and didn't have problems. But would there be tremendous stress added to the lugs causing the bonding material to break loose? I have a good feeling that there will be strong support that the carbon fiber will take the abuse. for good measure, no splitting or corrosion has started on the bottom bracket nor top tube joints. So it could be easily monitored. I'm just worried about passing the point of no return. The frame has made it this far (Allez Epic). many say that if it has passed the test of time thus far, there are some solid miles and years left before it is mandatory to abandon ship due to high risk of asplosions

bobbyl1966

i have put 130mm wheels in two bikes i use the same wheels in both bikes. My bikes have 126mm dropouts but i spread the dropouts with my hands when i put the wheels. Is working that way. One bike is aluminum the other steel. My bikes is was 7 speeds but i do 9 speeds. Both bikes have downtube shifters. I like brifters i have groupset used and no have deside to install in one of the bikes. Both frames is little big for me most i look for carbon fiber frame 54cm. Which company make the best road carbon frames?

CliffordK

Microshift also makes 10 & 11 speed shifters and derailleurs too. I have a 3x9 on one bike... perhaps around 1000 or 1500 miles, and while nothing is quite compatible with anything else on the bike, the shifters seem to be performing well.

I wouldn't call the Microshift clones of either Shimano or SRAM as they use a 2 button shifter, more like Campagnolo than other brands. (Forte is also Microshift, I think). But, they are clearly independent from the big 3, although perhaps their new 11s shifter is more Campy like than previous versions.

I wouldn't worry about squeezing the dropouts out 1mm (130 vs 131mm), but 4 or 5 mm is more than I would like to do. I just like everything to slide together nicely. One of the problems is apparently non-parallel dropouts. So you are essentially stressing the dropouts as well as putting an S-Bend into your stays.

Anyway, I'd try an OC rim build before Perhaps you could calculate the angles before starting (can't go negative).

cny-bikeman

The problem is that in the process of "improving" bikes to 10/11 gears all that was done in almost all cases was add a smaller cog, so that 10 speeds have a 12 tooth and 11 speeds an 11 tooth, both of which are almost useless, and if they are used discourage spinning and increase
wear. Even going beyond 8 speeds is questionable except when one requires a wide range, as the tiny percentage changes are not really useful. The effort required to constantly shift to the perfect ratio just is not worth it. I personally can't imagine needing more than 8 gears on my wide range triple,

bananabacon

What does OC actually mean? As most of the forum users have discovered. I'm not hip with the lingo. I mean terminology. Its all good Though. I just put a stuffed dead horse in the middle of their playground and let then beat it to death. They can't tell the difference ;-).

So I don't ask another question. Does Sheldon Brown have good resources to brake down each generation of hubs? I've heard that the Shimano 1055 hubs are fairly smooth and take a beating. Although I haven't the slightest on the weights. With a heavy carbon frame plus fat cells that need some melting in not terribly concerned about light weight. But that to me is still no reason to go for heavy parts. I guess at least.

cny-bikeman

Not sure what you mean by "reources to brake (break) down each generation of hubs." Overhauling hubs is pretty straightforward and does not vary much at all, other than the difference between overhauling cup and cone hubs vs. replacing cartridge bearings. The very few hubs that require unusual procedures have instructions available on the manufacturer's website. There is no appreciable weight to be saved by choosing one hub over another.

Jiggle

That's not true. Shimano has increased its chain durability every time it narrowed it.