Scooty Puff Jr

2016 Fuji Crosstown 1.1 disc 27 speed, owned 4 weeks, close to 500 miles.

Been working out a few bugs on this bike, had a issue with loose spokes that was taken care of, and now I'm working on straightening out a shifting issue. Since the first day I picked up my bike form the BS (they're not local) I've had a intermittent issue with down shifting between 6th and 5th gear, it sometimes hangs up between the two speeds. Doesn't happen all the time, but when it does I have to push the thumb shifter in a bit further to get it to change gears. It shifts perfectly every time when up shifting from any gears (1st to 9th), it's just an issue down shifting going from 7th to 6th, and sometimes 6th to 5th.

The BS worked on this issue the day I picked it up for almost 2 hours straight, trying to get it adjusted correctly, they replaced the shifter cable, checked to make sure the hanger wasn't bent, and check the shifter as well. At the time they seemed to have gotten it working properly, though the B-screw is completely screwed "out", something just doesn't look right. It worked well for a little while.....

Then around 50 miles, it started up again but not often, then at 100 miles, it started doing it more often, now it's happening once out of every 2 or 3 down shifts. The chain is wiped down daily, and after 60 miles or so the chain is re-oiled (one drop wet lube on each link) and wiped down. Drive train is very quiet and clean, so the chain isn't the issue, I ride on 95% paved trials and roads.

I got a very good deal on the bike, but I had to buy it from a shop in another city, and getting over there isn't the easiest and they normally want to hold on to the bike for a few days. I realize now that I should've spent the extra money and bought the bike from a LBS. Anyhow my LBS (not the shop I bought it from) said that it's the rear derailleur, most likely a weak spring, and said the Acera models aren't the best, and suggested I buy a better one. I just want this fixed, and I don't care if I have to pay for it, and taking it back and to the shop I bought it from really doesn't work for me. Other than this annoying issue, I like the bike a lot, it's smooth and very comfortable.

So I'm looking at ordering a Deore M591 SGS and was told it's a better derailleur than the Acera, and I can get one for $40 new shipped. Should I just go with a upgraded derailleur or keep spending time on this Acera and try to get it to work ?

Andrew R Stewart 

So are you expecting the shift to be accomplished when moving the lever ONLY to the click spot? Also are you talking about shifting to a higher effort gear or a lower effort gear (which is called a down shift even though the chain ends up on a larger diameter cog)? Last question is that are you calling the smallest cog the 9 or the largest cog the 9th one?

Shift controls have a slight over movement when shifting into a lower gear (unless you have a Rapid Rise system which I doubt) and this slight over shift is there to compensate for things like wear. Shifting into higher gears (the smaller cogs) can hesitate for a number or reasons. Too much cable routing friction is but one example that's common.

I would suggest that if all servicings don't cure the problem that you do what the shop that you go to says to do and have them do it. Since getting to the LBS that has some skin in the game doesn't happen perhaps you need to transfer some skin to the shop you can get to easily. I would not get the der independent of whatever LBS you have installing it. This only reduces their skin. You seem to want someone to own the problem, buying the der from a different source won't get this aspect done. Andy.

FastJake

I could be misunderstanding your post but this sounds like a technique issue to me. Down-shifting the rear, going from a smaller cog to a larger cog, has some technique associated with it (even with Hyperglide cassettes and modern chains!) and I think you might be expecting too much. You have to push the thumb button past where it will end up to get a solid shift. The quicker and firmer you are the better the shift. If you're standing and pedaling while doing this - expect poor results. If you're pedaling at a very low cadence while doing this - expect poor results.

Up-shifting the rear, on the other hand, has almost no technique because you simply press the button until it clicks and wait for the RD to clunk down into the next smaller cog. Things that can go wrong there are excessive cable/housing friction or poorly routed cables causing the system to hang up and not shift smoothly.

travbikeman

Ok, I might be wrong on this, so welcome being told so.

But Shimano trickles down their technology when replacing with newer stuff. The Deore M591 SGS is the older tech. Which I'm betting and maybe wrong is the same as what you have but called Shimano Acera RD-M390-L 9-Speed. I don't think your going to tell much of a difference between the two derailleurs. I think you have a cable tension issue, that the LBS needs to work on.

If it was me, and I do plan on eventually replacing my Alivio M4000 when it dies with this instead: Deore XT 9 speed.

Scooty Puff Jr

The largest gear is 1st and the little tiny gear is 9th, going from a higher number gear to a lower number gear is "down shifting". So yes, I'm having a issue going from 6th (higher effort gear) to 5th (lower effort gear). Think I was pretty clear on this.

Never said I had a issue shifting into higher gears, I clearly said that is shifts perfectly from 1st (big gear) to 9th (small gear) which is called up shifting.

I never suggested that I want someone to "own" the problem, in fact I said, "I just want this fixed, and I don't care if I have to pay for it" Plus you don't know my relationship with my LBS that I go to regularly, they happen to be business friends, and they suggested I buy the new derailleur on-line because they can't get it any cheaper.

So, after all of that, I'm guessing you're saying to go with the Deore because it's a better derailleur ?

Scooty Puff Jr

I know how the shifters work, even both the bike shops I've had the bike to, have said something is amiss, so its not a technical issue, I know how they're suppose to work.

Scooty Puff Jr

Hmmm interesting, thanks for the info, I will check into this. Yes the Acera I have is the M390.

Darth Lefty 

The Deore 591 will not be substantially different in design from other pre-Shadow RD's, the difference is that it's made of better materials with better finishes and should be more durable with a longer service life. But a brand new Acera shouldn't have problems yet, and in fact its engineering is a couple years newer... the Deore group went 10-speed some time ago.

I've got little to add except that if it's only between 5 and 6, it might be a problem with the cassette or the shifter on just that one shift; otherwise the cable tension might be very subtly off, like only half or one turn.

Scooty Puff Jr

Thanks, yeah the mechanics that have looked at it have said much of the same things you have, the cassette, shifter and cable has been gone over many times. We believe its a defective derailleur, I could have it replaced under warranty at the BS I bought it from, but they want the bike for a couple days, plus it's a pain to get there, and I'd rather not have it replaced with the same entry level derailleur. I tried to get the BS I bought it from to upgrade it, but not only will they charge me for the new RD (which I accept) they will also charge me labor (not happy with that).

Andrew R Stewart 

Sorry if your Op had me confused as to your problem. One point that I was trying to focus on is whether you're using the shift lever's "over shift' throw or not. This detail is missed by many who think one only has to move the lever JUST to the next click, and not slightly further. This technique is probably the number two or three technique that we teach at our shifting clinics.

I did extrapolate a bit in your reference of not being able to get to the LBS that sold the bike. This often means that some sort of 'warranty' is wanted/expected. If this wasn't your meaning I again have egg on my keyboard.

But I fully feel that bringing in to a LBS new parts bought elsewhere is a poor relationship (if the LBS could have supplied said parts themselves). This practice has been likened to bring in your own food to a restaurant. not the best way to have the best relationship with the LBS. So on this point I feel strongly and don't apologize for. If I missed the reference earlier that the local LBS suggested that you source the der yourself then while my point still has merit it has already been agreed to and won't be an issue. Sorry if I didn't read this before.

As to the der replacement- It's not so much that the replacement der is more or less costly/graded then the OEM one. But that it will be a different one. has the local LBS offered to install a der they do have on hand as an experiment?

I have seen bikes where one or two cogs get far more worn then the rest (being the ones that get used most) and that this wear can make the shifting on these cogs be sluggish compared to the rest. I have also seen cassettes/freewheels with incorrect cog to cog spacing be a problem (although very rare). The der's guide pulley can become sloppy enough to cause shifting issues (but usually is seen on all the shifts).

Again sorry if I miss read your intentions. That I'm on the other side of the service counter makes me read into posts differently then most of the members here do. Andy.

Scooty Puff Jr

No problem, and thanks for your input.

I didn't think I'd need to explain this, but I have a very long relationship with the "local" LBS that I take my bike to, the owner and I both have race cars that we autocross a couple times a month. I do a lot of automotive work for him, he buys the parts, I put them on, we go and have a beer. I didn't think I'd need to explain this but my "LBS" is a semi-retired bike shop owner/mechanic, he had a very successful shop for 30 plus years and sold it a few years ago and moved down here. Now he has a small shop and does work for a limited clientele, it's kind of nice actually, but his hours are very spotty. Believe me, he doesn't care if I buy my own parts.

The shop I bought my bike from is a chain store, and I really don't like having to drive 40 minutes to take my bike there, and though the mechanics seem well qualified, they don't seem to care who you are.

Aubergine 

It wasn't you, Scooty. It's that some people call that an upshift, and others a downshift. So everyone was just being sure that they understood what you meant.

If I were faced with your issue, I also would suspect a problem with the cable tension or the derailleur. I don't think it is a technique issue because you are shifting fine on the rest of the gears. And if it were an issue with the cable routing or connection, the shifting would be off going both up and down. If your LBS is competent, they might well be right about the problem being in the derailleur.

alcjphil

My thought is this: If there is a problem shifting only between two specific adjacent cogs and not elsewhere across the cassette it is far more likely that there is a problem with the cassette or failing that, the shifter. If there were a problem with the derailleur I would expect to see shifting problems across more gears. When the derailleur is on the cogs you mention it is in the middle of its range where the effects of a weak spring on the derailleur would be less of a problem than at the extremes.

elmore leonard

How is the chain length? It would ne nice to see a pick with the chain on the large chain ring and on the smallest cog.

Scooty Puff Jr

I know it's confusing, bikes are a bit different than cars, my mind is embedded heavily in the automotive field.

Thanks, both have adjusted the cable many times and it was replaced the first day I owned it. My bike guy is pretty confident thats the problem and so is the BS I bought it from. It's a $600 bike, and I was planning on doing some upgrades anyways, but didn't think it would be this quick and the RD.

Scooty Puff Jr

Yes good point, the cassette has been discussed and checked over numerous times, no one thinks there's anything wrong with it. Mainly because its a intermittent issue, it doesn't happen all the time, but it is happening more often than it use to.

Hmmmm, I don't think its a issue, I think the mechanics would've looked at that, but not verified, but I will try to get you a pic.

alcjphil

The cassette was discussed, but was it changed? The fact that it is happening more often could be charged to the cables having bedded in during the first few weeks of use effectively stretching them. You did say the cables had been changed. Was this done since you originally bought the bike?

rmfnla

I'd look at the shifter.

If the derailleur works for some of the gears it should work for all of them.

Good chance there is some crud in the shifter or maybe excess material on the ratchet mechanism left over from manufacturing...

trailangel

Hey, Mr. Puffy Jr. How about an answer to this question from Andrew S. ??

""Sorry if your Op had me confused as to your problem. One point that I was trying to focus on is whether you're using the shift lever's "over shift' throw or not. This detail is missed by many who think one only has to move the lever JUST to the next click, and not slightly further. This technique is probably the number two or three technique that we teach at our shifting clinics. ""

RubeRad

+1

The derailleur moves exactly as far as the cable pulls it. If 5-6 is a unique problem, then either the shifter is pulling less cable for that click, or the cassette has larger spacing for those cogs. If the derailleur were misaligned or something, you would see problems increasing at one end of the cassette or the other, not a problem only in the middle.

But I would consider this to-be-expected slop for this intermediate level of component. You can work around it by overshifting a bit. You can solve it by buying more expensive replacement components, but personally I don't see the point of paying for high-end components for a mid-range (or low-end depending on perspective) bike.

You seem dead-set on fixing the problem, if you throw enough money at it, it can be solved. But I would talk to the shop about paying only for labor to test new parts to see if they are a solution, so you can at least avoid paying the cost of replacement parts that might not work. If the shop owner is your buddy, maybe you can ask him to borrow high-end components, swap & test them yourself, and see if they fix it before you buy?

Scooty Puff Jr

Yes the cable was changed the day I picked it up, the issue was present right out of the box, they worked on it for hours, then changed the cable. They seemed to have the issue solved, then after 100 miles the issue slowly started again, and now at 500 miles its much more present. We thought of changing the cassette but my guy didn't have a "loner" and I didn't want to buy one.

Scooty Puff Jr

Shifter was my very first thought. We actually changed the shifter with a "loner" and had the same issue, and we cleaned the original one.

Scooty Puff Jr

Hey Mr. Trailangel, sorry I didn't verify that I do know how my shifters function. I do have to push the thumb button in a bit further when trying to make a single gear shift when the chain gets stuck between gears going from 7th gear to 6th gear (or 6th to 5th) to get it to shift. "Most of the time" it works just swimmingly clicking it once with my thumb. I know that by pushing the thumb shifter in all the way will make it downshift 2 gears, and pulling the lever with my index finger it up shifts just once.

Scooty Puff Jr

Yes I want it fixed. I could leave the bike for a week or so at the store I bought it at and they would just change parts until they figured it out, because they've done just about everything in the book to check components for defects. I don't want to leave it that long or even drive it up there, if I knew then what I know now, I would've spent more on it and bought it locally.

Well the consensus from both shops is the RD spring isn't strong enough to pull the chain up from 7th to 6th and 6th to 5th and that the housing might be binding at the hinges in that certain spot. It shifts perfectly going the other way from 5th to 6th and 6th to 7th. Remember that this only happens about 33% of the time the other 66% of the time it shifts perfectly in both directions.

Well my bike guy doesn't mind changing out parts to see if that fixes the problem, but he doesn't really have a whole lot of spares around his shop, he's semi-retired and mostly does bicycle work for charities now, so he's always dealing with much older and entry level model bikes.

trailangel

Spring doesn't pull the chain up to lower larger cog. Your thumb does. Have you considered Operator Error?