bikerbobbbb

Because the spokes are worn and need to be replaced. I'm wondering what went on with this more though.

I had 4-5 broken spokes. I replaced those over the winter (I think. Exact dates are on here.) So all the spokes go more wear from all the broken spokes.

Last weekend though, I replace another broken spoke. That had been broken for a month or two. I either broke or found another broken spoke while I was replacing that one, so two spokes total were replaced. After that, I was kind of pleased. The wheel was truer. Brakes worked fine. Shifting was better than it had been.

I've noticed some wobble in my wheel this past week though. Fine, I thought. It looked true, but it's not actually perfectly true. I could feel it when I was riding but just didn't see the little wobbling quiet as much.

But it still wobbled through the week. The front basket is a little loose and would take a little effort to get at to tighten, so that moves a little too. That got more and more annoying.

And then yesterday I took a very heavy load on my bike. Possibly as heavy as I ever have. I doubt I'll do that again.

Tonight I noticed the wobbling again. I thought maybe a spoke was broken. Worth checking.

But this was weird -- Several (or many) spokes were just loose. Maybe that's how I trued them, but I doubt it. I thought I gave them a squeeze last week after it appeared pretty true (for me). Loose as in the nut was there but there wasn't much or any tension. It's a 32 spoke rim... I'd guess maybe 7-8 were like that.

Unsafe I'm sure.

But what caused that? Lots of worn spokes and then taking a heavy load. How do the nipples turn and loosen? And is there a way to lock them up more? Probably get the wheel true and then do a last little twist in the opposite direction they want to untwist in? So the last motion on the nipple isn't in the direction of loosening the nipple. Is there some "nipple locker" something I can put on them to discourage twisting?

I did spray a little lubricant on each one I think, thinking it was oiling them up... but assuming they'd hold. I did something I thought. I wonder if that's what cause this, plus worn spokes and a heavy load.

Is this something that's known/common if you have worn spokes?


I'm less confident in the bike now. Taking it to a shop is more on the radar. Or I could get a truing wheel and true things up better, even with these broken spokes. The better solution will be to get all new spokes and true it up good then.


Of course it's late now. When I found several loose spokes, I used the spoke wrench and tightened them so they weren't loose anymore. Then I flipped the bike and checked truing... Oi. Big, side to side swaying. I'm tired. I tried to fix that as much as I could, probably going the wrong direction a few times. Those gauges on the truing stands might be worth it crossed my mind, if they would say what a section was off. I still don't think they'll do quite what I need though. I got the large sways removed... mostly... I thought. I was wondering how you know which one is the incorrect sway, related to dish too, when they're big enough.

After I was tired of trying to remove the smaller wobble, I right-sided the bike. Put the brake back on... and the brake rubs. The wheel is shifted over to the left a bit and that brake pad rubs. I'm wondering if I picked the wrong big sway to correct and screwed up the dish a bit.

Found some plastic thing, wrapping or maybe a tree/plant skin thing in the brake J piece. I can't tell if it's a brake lining or something from outside the bike. I couldn't pull it all out of the metal J brake piece.

And then a basket screw was loose. At least that part got tightened nicely.

So I've got a brake that majorly rubs against the wheel now. I'll mess with truing more, although I could just pop the brake off and only use one brake. The options aren't sounding so great though.

bikerbobbbb

I suppose it's possible someone came along and twisted nipples. That's a bit what it seemed like. Not very realistic though with the history of the wheel and spokes. That idea crossed my mind.
The gauges, if that was worth it to buy, on the truing wheel crossed my mind. It's late and I don't want to screw around with it. A $60 gauge might be useful in that scenario. Having good tools sounds like a great idea still. Being limited by the tool isn't good. That idea has been going through my mind related to what truing stand I should buy.
A truing stand I would need. So I should probably just get it already. I could true up my wheel with existing spokes at the very least.
And then I coudl also replace all the spokes on that rear wheel. I think I'd want to research more and make sure I'm not using the wrong lubricant. If I'm redoing all the spokes I'd want to make sure it was done right once and be done with it.

jyl

You need to stop screwing around and either take the bike to the shop, or buy a new wheel, or buy a truing stand and tension meter and rebuild the whole wheel with all new spokes and nipples. You are messing around replacing spokes one by one. When spokes are breaking so often, you are wasting your time with patch jobs. Stop talking about retruing the existing spokes.

AnkleWork

It is very odd that a person can write but not read.

dabac

If you really want help, try to keep your posts shorter and closer to the point.
It's a huge effort sifting through all that in search of what you're actually asking about.
Or divide into paragraphs.

Not enough spoke tension will make your spokes fatigue and fail faster.
It'll also allow them to rattle loose and let nipples unwind.
There are self-locking nipples as well as weak thread-locking compounds that can be used.
But shouldn't be needed if you get things right from the beginning.

AlexCyclistRoch

Loose spokes break faster than tight spokes. Each revolution, you are going slack/tension/slack/tension, until you fatigue it and it breaks. So, for some reason, your spokes were under-tensioned.

You mentioned that you lubricated nipples. Why? A properly tensioned nipple should HOLD. Lubricating them makes them TURN, loosening them. If you want a REALLY solid wheel, some people actually SOLDER them up (extreme, but true).

When you build a wheel, you either use something modern like spoke-prep, or something old-school like beeswax or linseed oil; a dryish lubricant that will become sticky in short order.

Trying to asses you skill level from your post, I'd suggest that you take your wheel to a shop for a COMPLETE rebuild. Since you are having trouble truing your wheel without using $400 worth of shop equipment, I seriously doubt you have the skill to do this rebuild. However, if you do go ahead, this is what you will need to do:

1) Buy a completely new set of spokes and nipples. Anything already on your bike is already fatigued and over-lubricated. I also suspect that you have a mix of gauge/type/length/manufacturer. All your spokes should match. Start fresh.

2) Buy a tension gauge. I can build a wheel just by the sound of the spokes, but your post confirms that you can't, so get yourself a gauge.

3) Either learn how to build/dish a wheel on your bike (Sheldon Brown will show you how), or else drop a lot of $$ on shop-grade building equipment.

4) Use some sort of nipple preps but DO NOT use oil lubricants!

I've only built 6 wheels from scratch, but I've never needed either a building/truing stand or a tension gauge (although I have used a truing stand at the co-op just as a time-saver). But, then, I DID do extensive reading before I made my first wheel (something that you need to do). Do you have the patience to properly build a wheel? I'm not certain you do.

Kopsis

All spokes in the wheel fatigue at roughly the same rate so once you've had two or three break, you need to replace them all. They're just not that expensive to make it worth the trouble and risk of having them continue to break.

Riding for a month with two broken spokes is madness. You're rapidly accelerating fatigue on the remaining spokes and the rim. At this point I'd question whether it's even safe to continue using the rim.
So your solution for a wheel with an obvious problem was to load it up more than you ever have?

The spokes lost tension. Could be you didn't tension them enough, could be you simply overloaded the wheel. Probably a combination of both.

No it has nothing to do with "wear" on the spokes. Spokes don't "wear" they fatigue. When the metal fatigues too much, they break. The spoke's function doesn't degrade until broken.

At this point I suggest a new factory-built wheel. I suspect your current wheels are nothing special (or you wouldn't be abusing them this way). A basic wheel can be purchased for less than it's going to cost you to fix this mess. To repair you'll need a new set of spokes and probably a new rim (I'd be shocked if your rim is even close to true when all the spokes are de-tensioned). To build yourself you'll need a spoke tension gauge. Pro wheelbuilders don't believe they can build good wheels from scratch without a tension gauge so I don't understand why shade tree mechanics think they're somehow more skilled. To have it built most shops will charge at least $50.

Wheel building is a learnable skill, but not everyone has the personality for it. It demands knowledge, patience, and a very methodical approach. Unlike other areas of bike maintenance where there's a significant margin for error, you can't just "wing it" on wheel building and expect any kind of success.

Drew Eckhardt 

That happens when wheels have insufficient tension. Spokes unload passing the bottom of the rim, they go slack, and the nipples unscrew.

It's exacerbated by heavier riders/loads which deflect the rim more than lighter ones.

New wheels often leave the factory with insufficient tension because the companies make more money dealing with an occasional warranty return than slowing the rate of production.

Used rims can get lateral bends, where making the wheel true requires more tension in the spokes on the concave side and less on the convex side. Those loose spokes can have problems.

This is worse in multi-cog rear wheels where non-drive tension is a fraction of drive side, about 50% in wheels with 8 or more cogs.

Sufficient tension will do it even when the threads and nipple sockets are properly lubricated. Use anti-seize or grease when building wheels, and 3-in-1 oil for assembled ones.

Wheelsmith invented Spokeprep so they could sell under-tensioned machine-built wheels without warranty returns; although it's better to use appropriate tension because wheels collapse when they take a hit big enough to slacken the spokes, the laterally unsupported rim moves off center, and tension returns when the bump passes. More tension means you can deflect the rim more with bigger bumps before the wheel tacos.

The safe bet is using a tension meter, where there are inexpensive iPhone and Android apps which derive tension from tone. 105kgf is fine for drive-side and front wheel tension with most rims, measured without an inflated tire.

With moderate weight box section rims you can also alternately add tension and stress relieve (squeeze near parallel spokes towards each other, or bend them around eachother at the outer crossing using something softer like a plastic screwdriver handle, old left crank, or brass drift) until the wheel goes out of true in waves at which point you back off half a turn, true, and be happy.

One drop of oil where the spokes emerge from the nipples and a second in the socket will make your spoke wrench turn better and reduce your odds of rounding off aluminum nipples.

It's nothing intrinsic in their age. I have wheels I rode 4-5 days a week for most of 16 years which are still fine.

If the whole wheel is off you need to correct dish with more tension in the drive side. Ordinarily you'd do that with the non-drive side, although that's already too loose if nipples are coming lose.

Drew Eckhardt 

Anti-seize is ideal and plain grease great. I've had wheels built that way stay true for 16 years with their alloy nipples still turning fine.

You only need glue when you don't put enough tension in your wheels. Using a light flexible rim with thick spokes that may not be possible, although the right fix is thinner spokes especially in the rear non-drive side.

Oil is fine. Jobst Brandt (former HP/Avocet/Porsche engineer) specifically recommends it in _The Bicycle Wheel_.

Zinc anti-seize and grease are better when you have exposed spoke threads and rim nipple sockets, especially with alloy nipples that will freeze solid without them. They'll both keep water out. Zinc anti-seize will also corrode preferentially over the adjacent aluminum.

It's nice because you can set it up at your kitchen table and be comfortable while building and optionally imbibing beer.

You don't need it for box section rims or where you have a matching good whee allowing you to compare tonel. In other situations it becomes a better idea to avoid too little (old nipples may not turn freely enough to feel) or too much (rims vary in their tolerance, and some don't say "too much" until the spoke bed cracks early thousands of miles later).

jyl

It sounded to me like multiple spokes broke, then you noticed others were loose.

I think that once you have multiple spokes broken, other spokes can become unloaded and thus loosen.