earlofmac

I'm putting together parts for a ca. 2004 Bianchi Eros frame and fork with a 1" threadless steering tube. I have an idea of what I'd like to use up there, but I'm hoping a few wiser riders here can check this out and make sure I'm not about to muck it up.

Basically, it seems that most threadless stems are 1 1/8". I'd shim one to fit the 1" tube. But the headset would need to be a 1" threadless. Would I just need to get a 1 1/8" top cap to replace the 1" cap that would come as part of the headset? Otherwise, the 1" cap wouldn't be wide enough to press down on the stem.

I'm hoping to use the Velo Orange Tall-Stack stem, which only comes in 1 1/8".

Ancillary question about that stem--do you think I'll be okay if my steering tube is just at the minimum insertion line on there? Should I get a longer bolt to make sure it'll reach the spangled nut in the tube? I love the high stack design. It's as close to a quill stem as I can get with my bike, I think.

Thanks a ton for any help here!

SquidPuppet

Just have the steerer threaded so you can run a quill stem. The wall thickness of a threadless steerer is the same as a threaded steerer.

skimaxpower

Many stems come with a shim to run 1 1/8" stems on a 1" steer tube. If the VO stem doesn't come with a shim, you can buy them from other sources. Take note that the VO stem you want is taller than normal and you may need 2 or more shims. Call VO for guidance?

earlofmac

Thanks for the replies--any advice on the top cap issue? That's really what I'm wondering about. I know I can shim the stem to fit the tube.

Andrew R Stewart 

I don't agree at all. Risk damage to the steerer that's a pain to fix and step back into the past with less options to available stems. Not my choice. Andy

SquidPuppet

1. What risk? Any decent mechanic can thread a pipe. That's what dies are for. The job can be done safely and easily.
2. Based on the OP's comments, it sounded like he'd prefer to use a quill stem.
3. There are only about a zillion quill stems available. In every length, extension and angle.

SquidPuppet

You will obviously need a 1 1/8" cap for a 1 1/8" stem.

Andrew R Stewart 

Cutting threads in 4130 or similar can result in tearing off the thread, so some familiarity, skill and tooling that the common LBS don't usually have is a consideration (like single pointing on a lathe). The common dies usually found in LbSs are not intended for threading but for chasing.


The stem the OP mentions in the opening post fits the OD of the steerer. So any threading will upset this fit and more stuff. Also the single pinch bolt stems of this style are sensitive to fit, on the steerer, in general.


Sure, today, quill stems are around. But when investing in frame mods one might take their riding life into account. How many more years will the OP be riding and how fast will the industry change? How long will the after market continue to find offering quill stems to be worth the effort? This is a judgment. Your mileage may vary. Andy

SquidPuppet

Not true. They do a brilliant job of adding (cutting) another few threads when needed. Or even and inch, as I've done. Like I said, it's easy for any decent mechanic who is familiar with taps and dies.

Park tools description:

No it does not. That's the sole purpose of his post. The stem is 1-1/8 inch and the steerer is 1 inch. That's why he was asking about shims and caps. I wasn't recommending threading the fork and then using a threadless stem.

Quill stems are never going away. It's been over 100 years and you can still walk into an LBS or a store and find MANY bikes that are sold with quills. The aftermarket won't fade away while new bikes are still being sold with quills.

Andrew R Stewart 

SP- we have a different take on the Op's post and the use/experience of shop frame tooling. I tend to be more conservative then many as I wish to have a solid rep.


Var, Campy, Park, Eldi, Silva, Cobra fork dies are not consistent in their cut resulting threads on gummy 4130 steerers as people wish to assume. As I said your experience may vary. But once a cut is taken the going back gest real involved . Andy

SquidPuppet

If someone came into you shop with a fork and said he was installing it on a frame with a shorter head tube, and asked you to add 4mms of threading to the steerer, would you turn him away?


It's a die. Designed specifically to cut threads on a fork steerer. Steel steerers. If you think advising against using the tool for it's designed purpose on material it was designed for is prudent, well, advise against it then. But let's be real. The threads are under no load and experience no meaningful stress. They exist simply to provide a place for a lock nut to hold a race stationary.

Andrew R Stewart 

SP- I have no black and white answer for you (unlike your replies). I know that most all the fork dies I have used are not designed to thread otherwise uncut steerers, as the OP's was.


Have I cut a few threads on an already threaded steerer... sure many times. Sometimes not so well in results. Hence my hesitation. Would I do so on a threadless steerer, no way. They are not intended to be threaded or the industry would be different in the references.


But to extend a few threads (and not the topic of this thread) is as more a judgement. Each shop/builder needs to find their sweet spot about this. Some of this is also about the customer and their abiility to accept the results no matter what that is. I have done some frame repairs where I have qualified the results with "not for use" afterwards. Is this wrong? Where we decide to draw the line is a case by case issue.


So when I read on line about some who give blanket claims about procedures that I know to have a range of result I take issue. Like I said before, we have differences in how we look at this. I hope the Op gets what he needs and both of our customers (and note that the OP isn't either of our's customer) are happy. Andy

CliffordK

My Colnago C40 came with a 1" steer tube (CF, so no threading and quills).

I bought a 1" threadless Ritchey Scuzzy Logic sealed bearing headset. I did have a little problem with the crown race being too tight. Italian?

I was going to try to track down a 1" threadless stem, but I wanted to go with a 31.8mm handlebar, and the selection of 1" threadless x 31.8mm bars was very limited.

So, instead I went with a 1 1/8" threadless stem and a shim, and am very happy with the result.

RitcheyHeadset.jpg

The stack went:

• Headset
• Lip of shim (I think I decided to put it down for a square fit.
• Shim + 1 1/8" stem.
• A few 1" spacers. I left them on since they didn't seem to be a problem, and who knows, the frame could get rebuilt differently in the future.
• 1" top cap (came with the frame). I didn't use the Ritchey 1" top cap which was included with the headset.

earlofmac

Hey Clifford, yeah, this is what I mean. By using a 1" top cap on a 1 1/8" stem, isn't the top cap too small to compress down on the stem?

Edit: Oh, I see--you've got the spacers on the top. So the top cap is pushing against them, not the stem. Makes sense!

mstateglfr 

Eh...if it isnt -17, its tough to find. There are a couple cheap Sunlite positive rise stems in short lengths which are typically used in drop bar conversions(on this site) or old cruisers/hybrids.
Nitto has the Dynamic II which is the only 0degree stem I know of right now and whats available is typically a 120mm length.

Point is, if you want a -17 stem, then yes a lot of used(and some new) are still available.
But if you need a tall stem?...then your options are extremely limited.
And a 0degree stem?...then you options are extremely limited.



If you know of a site(s) with tons of new quills offering 'every length, extension, and angle' then let me in on it please!

DaveSSS 

Adding a few threads to a threaded steerer is much easier than trying to get a threading die started squarely onto an unthreaded tube. I would not try threading a steering tube from scratch without special fixturing to hold the tube and die square to each other. The exception would be if the threading die has a special extended bore that would square the two, before the threading started. A Park threading tool does not have such a feature.

Just use a 1 to 1-1/8" bushing for the stem and a star nut in the steering tube, to anchor the top cap.

TimothyH

Sometimes a 1" top cap is too small and falls through the opening in the stem or spacer, other times it is wide enough to grab. It depends on how the particular cap is made.

There is however, no reason not to have the right top cap on your bike. A proper 1.125" top cap should be $10 at most and any bike shop should have them. If you live near Atlanta then you can come to my house and I'll give you one, and the shim as well, and a star nut. We can install it all if you want to hang out for an hour or so. I'll brew coffee. Send a PM.

While interesting, all this talk of treading a threadless steerer is complete overkill. Just get a 1" to 1.125" shim and the right top cap and ride the bike. It is literally no big deal.


-Tim-

Mr IGH

Add a few threads, OK, maybe. Thread a threadless steerer, crazy, esp when a simple shim solves the problem. It's so easy to screw it up, create a weak spot/stress riser and have the steerer snap. I worked at a framemaker's shop BITD and we would add a few threads, reluctantly. More than once we replaced steerers that a local shop tried to extend threads on and ruined it. Just 'cause the Campy toolkit has a steerer die doesn't mean it works....

As for OP questions. I've run the shim, works great. I had my 1 1/8" stem at the end of the steerer so I used a 1 1/8" cap.

earlofmac

That's all I'm looking for, Tim. Thanks for the offer, but a bit of a hike from Virginia! New top cap it is.

CliffordK

Yes, in my case, the top cap was against the spacers as I chose not to re-cut the steer tube. I may do it in the future, but it doesn't bother me.

Keep in mind that 1" and 1 1/8" only differ by 1/16" in radius. So, as long as your cap extends more than that 1/16" beyond the stem, you should be fine. Or, as others mentioned, a 1 1/8" cap would be easy enough to incorporate.

Slash5

You would use a 1 1/8 top cap since it has to fit the stem, not the steerer.
The Velo Orange site says the min. insert line is 15 mm from the top and since you won't be running any top shims the normal bolt should work fine. If not, longer will be OK.
Since there is a min. insert line, then your shim will need to be at least as tall as the line - might be hard to find or take some customizing.

SquidPuppet

They aren't all under one roof, but if you are willing to look they are easily found.

There are reasons why zero degree stems are gone and -17 are common. Zeros are pointless, and ugly. Quills have almost infinite height adjust ability. -17s put the extension at ~ level.

But, multiple angles, both positive and negative are readily available. Lengths too, and finishes, and colors. I can show you a dozen sites that even carry the extreme oddball (from yesteryear) 21.1mm quill diameter stems. NEW, not NOS, in many colors.

+ 17. Velo Orange has it covered.

VO Quill Stem - Quill Stems - Stems - Components

+25 degrees. Made in 60,80,100,120mm extension. Black or silver. BTI | Stems from Kalloy

Basic utilitarian




More angle? (not really, but it is available.) Nitto has it.



Or 30 degree with a two bolt faceplate.

Origin8 Stem Quill ATB 180X22.2X85X25.4Sl30D | Quill Stems | Stems | Components | Bikewagon.com

I could keep going with many more examples. Mostly ugly IMO, but still being manufactured.

Visit a track bike site and see all the negative angles. Lengths 60,70,80,90,100,110,120,130. Here you will find a wide variety of styles, and Lots of fancy expensive models

https://www.retro-gression.com/collections/stems

SquidPuppet

LOL you guys crack me up.

Every threaded steerer you have seen in your life began it's life as a threadless steerer. Same material, same OD, Same ID. Until......guess what....threads were added. OH MY. Starting a die straight? Oh no....the horror....how could a human possibly do that?

SquidPuppet

I've been debating forks and tools. Our opinions differ. That kinda making it personal **** is so unnecessary.

TimothyH

Look me up if you ever come down.

I like Thomson top caps.


-Tim-