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Old 07-09-17, 02:31 PM   #126
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Good grief.

Let's just drop this discussion because it's going where all of the chain lube and grease discussions go. Nowhere.

We agree that we disagree.

After this I think I'm going to need as smoke.
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Old 07-09-17, 06:29 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
This is working well, in case anyone cares:

(1) Initial molten paraffin applied to clean new chain
(2) Re-lube with Squirt without taking the 11-speed chain off the bike.
As someone who will soon be using Squirt as their chain lubricant, please keep updating your experience with Squirt here.
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Old 07-11-17, 07:25 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Yep, just like that. Just a few seconds of agitation before the chain goes in. When the pot is off and the wax hardens, the PTFE forms into little white globes inside the wax, and the moly forms a film just below the surface.
I have not experienced the separation of the mixture. After I mix the PTFE and the moly in the wax with the milk frother the first time it stays mixed. When the wax runs low in the pot, I add another pound of wax, PTFE & moly, froth it and it stays mixed until I add the next pound.

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Originally Posted by velocentrik View Post
Parrafin baths, or Wax lubes are the cleanest and are the best at not attracting dirt, grime, grit. However, they are the least long lasting chain lubricants. About 50 miles.
Like some others, I am curious about this claim. When researching waxed chains a few years ago, I didnít find anyone who claimed such a short lifespan for waxed chains in dry conditions. Most estimates I saw were in the low hundreds of miles at least. The lowest I found was a review of waxed chains for mountain biking which claimed that it would last about a day of hard riding in wet and muddy conditions. I have never seen the claim that chains need to be re-waxed before they start to squeak, so Iím curious about what evidence you have to back that up. Iím open to waxing my chain more frequently, but your outlier claim with nothing to support it isnít really that convincing.
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Old 07-11-17, 08:13 AM   #129
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Goodness, some people like to spend a lot of time with their chains.

I use Chain-L which is a heavy oil. It doesn't attract a lot of dirt, but I guess "a lot" is a relative and subjective term.

If my chain gets super grimy, I don't want to spend a lot of time cleaning it, so I replace it. That is arguably wasteful, but it's the only area where I'm wasteful on my bikes. It saves me time and prevents cog wear.
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Old 07-16-17, 02:58 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders View Post
Very soon I will be changing my lube over to Squirt and then perhaps my own hot waxing routine.

I found this guy's series of videos on chain cleaning and waxing very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x8JTUa_hZU

...Now something quite important about what the temperature of the wax should be before you taking your chain out of it, for when you are dunking your chain in hot wax(at the 15 min mark). The early part of the video deals with keeping out impurities from re-used wax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXuWxehSl-s
*****
/rant mode on

I watched three of those videos and my first reaction was FOR GOD'S SAKE DO NOT USE GASOLINE/PETROL AS A SOLVENT/CLEANER!!!

'nuff said.

I hope. Because I just deleted a couple of paragraphs about the people I've known who died or were horribly burned through misuse of flammable fuels and solvents -- and they all thought they knew better and it was okay because "we've done it this way for years". (I was a safety inspector in a past life.)

/rant mode off

Other than that, the Oz bike guy's videos were okay.

Eliminate gasoline as a solvent/cleaner, and there doesn't appear to be much difference between his homebrewed cleaner and the readily available chain cleaning brush doodads for use with non-volatile cleaners. Especially since he recommends following up with isopropyl alcohol and water. The spinning brush doodads have the advantage of cleaning between the link plates without volatile solvents. I'm not sure that cleaning inside those hollow link pins is a big deal. Or you could just shake the chains inside a tightly closed container of hot water and non-volatile cleaner and get most of the gunk.

He may have a point about adding a little lamp oil to the wax/paraffin, although too much would defeat the purpose and just attract more abrasive grit.

After waxing the chain I'm not sure it's necessary to completely strip the wax to clean it before re-waxing. I'm betting the first application of wax will exclude abrasive gunk from the friction points. Ordinary cleaning should be good enough.

I'll probably just do a quick clean and re-wax the chain at the end of July. Any debris that comes out in the melted paraffin will sink to the bottom or float. A mesh screen will let the heavier debris sink and not be disturbed or redistributed. The rest can be skimmed off.

I've ridden 150 miles on the road bike since waxing the chain the first week of July -- much of that on gravel or gritty rural chipseal. By now, with oils, the chain, chainrings and rear cogs would be gunked up with abrasive debris. Cleaning up the whole mess would be a lot more trouble. At worst now wiping the chain produces a few smudges. Less than that wiping the chainrings and rear cogs. Any smudges on my shins or finger wipe off easily.

The Oz bike guy may also be right about 150-200 miles being a reasonable time to redo the chain wax, depending on conditions (weather, dust, etc.). I'm hearing a bit more drivetrain noise now that the excess wax has worn off the outer and inner plates. It sounds about like the KMC Z72 chain sounded brand new with the factory lube. I'll probably continue riding until the end of the month and evaluate again. That'll probably be 300-400 miles.

So far the wax is looking pretty good.
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Old 07-16-17, 11:37 AM   #131
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Just shy of 1,800 miles using hot wax, complaint level: Zero.

I'm rotating two chains, a PC-1110 and a PC-1130. I do not ride Tuesdays, but do ride the other 6 days of the week, averaging around 35 miles per day (overall,) 220-240 miles per week. As I have the stuff and the time, I now remove the currently-in-use chain Monday night or Tuesday morning and replace it with the freshly waxed. Every other Tuesday I wax both chains, so I'm using each chain for less than 250 miles between waxing-- for as the Oz guy in the videos said, "You can't overwax a chain."

I'm not going back. At the current rate of consumption, the $25 worth of materials I bought (wax, PTFE, moly) should last about 25,000 miles. Doesn't hurt I live where it rains about 20 days a year. And when friends and family come over to have their poor, mistreated bikes wrenched on, I have a smorgasbord of chain lubes to choose from.

Oh, and cleaning the bike-- for those of use that do clean our bikes-- the waxed chain is just the absolute best. When the microfiber brushes against the drivetrain, it doesn't come back with huge black smudges on it.
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Old 07-16-17, 02:20 PM   #132
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Ditto Have about 50 miles on the new waxed chain. Never going back.
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Old 07-16-17, 06:33 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
*****
/rant mode on

I watched three of those videos and my first reaction was FOR GOD'S SAKE DO NOT USE GASOLINE/PETROL AS A SOLVENT/CLEANER!!!

'nuff said.

I hope. Because I just deleted a couple of paragraphs about the people I've known who died or were horribly burned through misuse of flammable fuels and solvents -- and they all thought they knew better and it was okay because "we've done it this way for years". (I was a safety inspector in a past life.)

/rant mode off

Other than that, the Oz bike guy's videos were okay.

Eliminate gasoline as a solvent/cleaner, and there doesn't appear to be much difference between his homebrewed cleaner and the readily available chain cleaning brush doodads for use with non-volatile cleaners. Especially since he recommends following up with isopropyl alcohol and water. The spinning brush doodads have the advantage of cleaning between the link plates without volatile solvents. I'm not sure that cleaning inside those hollow link pins is a big deal. Or you could just shake the chains inside a tightly closed container of hot water and non-volatile cleaner and get most of the gunk.

Is using petrol as a solvent/cleaner for bike parts in a container as the Oz bike did, really any more hazardous than refilling your lawn mower with petrol?


I'll be getting an ultrasonic cleaner, so may not need to worry about the petrol anyway.
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Old 07-16-17, 08:58 PM   #134
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Someone asked about how long the wax lasts. Using Squirt I do apply more frequently than oil, etc. But I just did a 150+km populaire and the chain was fine. I then did another 100k ride 5 days later and didn't rewax. All fine. All dry riding, though, with a bit on very dusty gravel.

I do apply a couple of coats of Squirt when I apply. Love the stuff.

I bet you could clean a waxed/squirted chain with a creme brulee torch. That'd be fun. Or stupid..
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Old 07-16-17, 09:08 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelSanders View Post
Is using petrol as a solvent/cleaner for bike parts in a container as the Oz bike did, really any more hazardous than refilling your lawn mower with petrol?
Just don't use it in an enclosed space where the fumes can accumulate.
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Old 07-16-17, 09:56 PM   #136
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Is using petrol as a solvent/cleaner for bike parts in a container as the Oz bike did, really any more hazardous than refilling your lawn mower with petrol?
Yup. Check Oz bike guy's workshop. Electrical outlets on the bench where he's using gasoline as a solvent. Gas vapors spread incredibly quickly, finding the lowest level.

The flash point is -45. All it takes is a single spark from any cycling device -- a/c, water heater, water pump, etc. -- or a faulty or dirty switch, breaker, GFCI, surge protector (does anyone bother to clean those things, especially in workshops and garages?). Or drop a steel tool on a concrete floor.

Here's how it usually happens...

The gasoline vapor spreads out rapidly in a circle surrounding the open container and person using the stuff.

A stray spark ignites the vapor.

The whooshing and popping sound startles the person in the middle of the flaming circle. If all goes well they don't reflexively kick or drop the open container of gasoline. The flame goes out and they're left with nothing worse than singed hair. If they're less lucky they'll take it as a sign that it's okay to repeat this dumb stunt in the future.

If they're unlucky they kick or drop open container of gasoline, setting themselves and everything around them on fire. Next stop, months of hanging upside down in the Parkland Hospital burn unit.

This is where I insert my usual stuff about having been an OSHA inspector in another lifetime and actually seeing the consequences of this stuff up close and personal -- assuming there were survivors.

And this is where the coworkers, foreman and owner say "Well, we done it this way fer nigh unto foughty year and nuthin' ever happent."

Same thing they say after digging the corpses of employees out of collapsed trenches, crushy smashy machines without lockout/tagout procedures, blah-blah-blah. People always mistake dumb luck for good procedure.

Quote:
I'll be getting an ultrasonic cleaner, so may not need to worry about the petrol anyway.
Good to know.

I'll probably stick with the spinning brush chain cleaners for the rough stuff, then a plastic container of non-volatile degreaser.

Even when I'm using mineral spirits or isopropyl alcohol for cleaning bikes and other stuff I take it outdoors. Probably unnecessarily cautious.
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Old 07-16-17, 10:15 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup. Check Oz bike guy's workshop. Electrical outlets on the bench where he's using gasoline as a solvent. Gas vapors spread incredibly quickly, finding the lowest level.

The flash point is -45. All it takes is a single spark from any cycling device -- a/c, water heater, water pump, etc. -- or a faulty or dirty switch, breaker, GFCI, surge protector (does anyone bother to clean those things, especially in workshops and garages?). Or drop a steel tool on a concrete floor.

Here's how it usually happens...

The gasoline vapor spreads out rapidly in a circle surrounding the open container and person using the stuff.

A stray spark ignites the vapor.

The whooshing and popping sound startles the person in the middle of the flaming circle. If all goes well they don't reflexively kick or drop the open container of gasoline. The flame goes out and they're left with nothing worse than singed hair. If they're less lucky they'll take it as a sign that it's okay to repeat this dumb stunt in the future.

If they're unlucky they kick or drop open container of gasoline, setting themselves and everything around them on fire. Next stop, months of hanging upside down in the Parkland Hospital burn unit.

This is where I insert my usual stuff about having been an OSHA inspector in another lifetime and actually seeing the consequences of this stuff up close and personal -- assuming there were survivors.

And this is where the coworkers, foreman and owner say "Well, we done it this way fer nigh unto foughty year and nuthin' ever happent."

Same thing they say after digging the corpses of employees out of collapsed trenches, crushy smashy machines without lockout/tagout procedures, blah-blah-blah. People always mistake dumb luck for good procedure.


Good to know.

I'll probably stick with the spinning brush chain cleaners for the rough stuff, then a plastic container of non-volatile degreaser.

Even when I'm using mineral spirits or isopropyl alcohol for cleaning bikes and other stuff I take it outdoors. Probably unnecessarily cautious.

Thanks for that info, I do appreciate it and it is definitely something to think about.


The main reason why I was considering the sort of petrol setup for cleaning that Oz Bike guy used, was because I could make a bigger container that would easily allow me to fit in my cassette, which I don't know if it will fit into the ultrasonic cleaner, but at worst I could put the cassette in and probably 75% of it would be submersed and them I could switch it around and do the missing 25%.
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Old 07-16-17, 10:35 PM   #138
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The Oz bike guy's cleaning comparison between the homebrewed cleaner with solvent, ultrasonic cleaner and spinning brush cleaner mainly showed the volatile gasoline solvent was quick and effective as a cleaner (albeit a hazardous cleaner). Eliminate that and the gap narrows between the devices. The remaining residue was about the same.

Another YouTube commenter suggested using sodium carbonate as a safer degreaser. Yeah, it'll work, but it's also more work. I've used the stuff to homebrew film developer. The only hazard is a slight respiratory and eye irritation from the dust.

The ultrasonic cleaner and safer degreaser will be the easiest if you have the budget and room.

I'll admit the spinning brush doodads are messy. I used one this evening. Had to take it outside. After cleaning the chain, then I have to clean the bike, or at least the rear wheel, chain stay and derailer because the cleaning fluid splatters all over the back of the bike.

I'm gonna run that bike with the same chain and Tri-Flow until the end of the year when it'll be time to replace the chain. I just realized this evening I hadn't used a KMC Missing Link with the chain and I don't want to break it again since the chain is perfectly good. So I'll wait until the end of the year and replace it with the Z72 and Missing Link I use on the other bikes. That'll be around 2,000-3,000 miles at the rate I've been riding. Decent mileage for a chain.

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Old 07-17-17, 01:15 AM   #139
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I haven't used a degreaser either since going with an oil based lube. And I haven't had to re-aply the lube either. Just wipe the chain down once in a while with a dirty shop rag that has a small amount of mineral spirits on it. It re-activates the "Chain-L"
What's all the fuss about?
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Old 07-17-17, 04:43 AM   #140
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I haven't used a degreaser either since going with an oil based lube. And I haven't had to re-aply the lube either. Just wipe the chain down once in a while with a dirty shop rag that has a small amount of mineral spirits on it. It re-activates the "Chain-L"
What's all the fuss about?
Chain tattoos, which especially suck when you're wrenching your bike.
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Old 07-17-17, 06:18 AM   #141
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I haven't had much success cleaning a chain with an ultrasonic cleaner.
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Old 07-17-17, 08:43 AM   #142
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Chain tattoos, which especially suck when you're wrenching your bike.
You need to wear full body kit before stepping outside the home.
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Old 07-17-17, 08:53 AM   #143
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As someone who will soon be using Squirt as their chain lubricant, please keep updating your experience with Squirt here.
It is still working. I haven't seen any signs of excessive wear or anything else.
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Old 07-17-17, 12:15 PM   #144
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I haven't had much success cleaning a chain with an ultrasonic cleaner.
What has been the problem?

What did you use as your degreaser in the ultrasonic cleaner?
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Old 07-17-17, 12:36 PM   #145
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What has been the problem?

What did you use as your degreaser in the ultrasonic cleaner?
I tried the harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner powder which didn't really work at all, then I tried Pedro's citrus degreaser which worked a little better, but there was still a fair amount of gunk in the chain when I put it in the OMS after ~10 480 second cycles. So I spent over an hour fiddling with the ultrasonic cleaner and still had to use the OMS/Alcohol treatment to get the chain clean enough for waxing. Plus I had a bunch of contaminated degreaser to dispose of, which I don't really have with the OMS/Alcohol since I filter and reuse.
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Old 07-17-17, 05:02 PM   #146
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The problem -- or challenge -- with paraffin is finding an effective solvent that isn't gasoline. Most sources suggest toluene, xylene, or denatured alcohol/methylated spirits.

I doubt any of these would be suitable with most ultrasonic cleaners, due to the fire hazard.

So we're back to using some sort of container with a filter or sieve to hold the chain and solvent for soaking and agitation to strip the old wax. Followed by a non-volatile cleaner in an ultrasonic machine or spinning brush tool.

I plan not to worry about stripping the old paraffin. My theory -- possibly incorrect -- is that debris won't penetrate or adhere to the thin film of paraffin in the actual friction points. So it's not worth worrying about. I plan to use non-volatile liquid based cleaners to remove whatever gunk might accumulate and just dunk the chain back into the melted paraffin to retreat it every month or few hundred miles.
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Old 07-17-17, 06:18 PM   #147
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Absolutely no need to deal with the "used" wax before re-dipping the chain. I literally take the chain off of the bike, carry it to the Lil Dipper, and drop it in. After ~40 minutes in the wax, I pull the chain out, and run one of those extendo-magnets around the bottom of the pot. It removes nearly all of the impurities from the wax.

For cleaning a new chain to prep for wax, I have three 32oz Gatorade bottles: one with OMS, one with lacquer thinner, and one with denatured alcohol. The chain goes through those in order, about 10 minutes in each bottle, shaking a few times. Hang to air dry, then into the pot maybe 15 minutes later.

Wanna know how someone is fully committed to hot wax for their chain? They buy a quick link that costs more than the chains they use.

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Old 07-17-17, 08:19 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
I haven't used a degreaser either since going with an oil based lube. And I haven't had to re-aply the lube either. Just wipe the chain down once in a while with a dirty shop rag that has a small amount of mineral spirits on it. It re-activates the "Chain-L"
What's all the fuss about?
Care to explain what's the reasoning for this? Specifically why a dirty shop rag? Thanks.
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Old 07-18-17, 07:04 AM   #149
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Why wipe a chain down with a clean rag?
What's up with all this voodoo and crock pot business?
"Honey, I'll be out in the shed waxing my chain"
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Old 07-18-17, 07:20 AM   #150
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Some of us actually like riding CLEAN bikes.

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