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Old 07-24-02, 02:50 AM   #1
tFUnK
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shifting problems

picked up an 8sp rear derailer for my mtn bike and i even went out and got new cables and housing. laced it into my xray gripshifter 8sp shifter and did everything correctly (i think) but the chain still skips cogs. i played with the tension and all, even when the cable is pretty loose it still pulls too much. where can the problem be? imthinking chain or shifter. the chain is old but not really beat, and i added/took off links to try and fix the problem. not much changed, it still skips cogs. the shifter should be a good shifter, i wonder why it wont work correctly. can somebody help me out, thanks. my bike has been in progress (building it up, sorta) for a month now im so frustrated
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Old 07-24-02, 06:22 AM   #2
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Assuming the drailer and shifters are compatible and you have it adjusted right(that cable pull business does not sound right),maybe the cassette or chain or both are trashed.The only way to know if a chainis good or not is to measure it. Have you got the cable attached to the drailer correctly?
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Old 07-24-02, 11:56 AM   #3
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basically the problem is that eachclick on the gripshift causes the derailler to shift through multiple cogs. the only think i can think of is the tension on the cable, but i just got a new one and still this problem presists. i highly doubt that the cassette is the problem, and thisweek my friend is going to put on a new chain to see if this fixes the problem. if worst comes to worst we'll just take everything apart and reinstall. what could be the cause of problem? hmmm i have no idea. i know it's not the derailer's fault. maybe the gripshifter? but it's in good working condition. cable tension? sigh
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Old 07-24-02, 12:33 PM   #4
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O.k. here we go:

First verify compatibility between your shifters and derailleurs. i.e. ESP shifters will only work with ESP derailleurs (1:1 ratio). X-Rays will work with Shimano(2:1 ratio), but not ESP.

Mount your bike in a place where you can pedal it and adjust things. Hang it from the seat on a bar or a rope if you don't have a repair stand. I use the rack on my car sometimes.

Shift into the middle chainring up front and the smallest cog in the back!

Now, undo the cable, turn the barrel adjuster on the derailleur all the way in, and then out 1/2 turn. Do the same to barrel adjuster on the shifter. (Barrel adjusters are the little knobs that the cables go into at the shifter and the derailleur) ESP may not have a barrell adjuster at the derailleur.

Look at the derailleur and check limit screw adjustment. While looking from the rear, the top jockey pulley should line up with the small cog. If not, turn one of the two screws until it does.

Then, while pedaling, push with one hand to shift into the largest cog and try to push as far towards the inside as possible. If you can push the chain into the spokes, turn the OTHER limit screw in till you cannot. If you can't get the chain to go into the largest cog, turn the limit screw out!

This sets the inside and outside limits of the derailleur to prevent the chain from coming off to either side of the cassette.

Now, reattach the cable. Remove slack, but cable should NOT be taught!

Start pedaling the bike. Move the shifter into the 2nd position (click). This may or may not move the chain into the 2nd gear. While pedaling the bike, turn the barrel adjuster out until it starts wanting to "Climb" into the 3rd gear. If you have to turn the barrel adjuster too much, start over and take a little more slack out of the cable to start. Once you've turn the adjuster till the "climbing" starts, turn the barrel adjuster back IN one full turn.

Shift through all the gears. Upshifts should be immediate and crisp, downshifts should be consistant.

If upshifts are slow, turn the barrel adjuster out 1/4 turn until they are.
If downshifts are hesitant, turn barrel adjuster in 1/4 turn until they're smooth.

If you can't find the balance between smooth upshifts and downshifts throughout the full range of gears, your derailleur hanger may be bent. Take it to your LBS and have them check alignment. (special tool for this)
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Old 07-24-02, 04:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by a2psyklnut
O.k. here we go:

First verify compatibility between your shifters and derailleurs. i.e. ESP shifters will only work with ESP derailleurs (1:1 ratio). X-Rays will work with Shimano(2:1 ratio), but not ESP.

Mount your bike in a place where you can pedal it and adjust things. Hang it from the seat on a bar or a rope if you don't have a repair stand. I use the rack on my car sometimes.

Shift into the middle chainring up front and the smallest cog in the back!

Now, undo the cable, turn the barrel adjuster on the derailleur all the way in, and then out 1/2 turn. Do the same to barrel adjuster on the shifter. (Barrel adjusters are the little knobs that the cables go into at the shifter and the derailleur) ESP may not have a barrell adjuster at the derailleur.

Look at the derailleur and check limit screw adjustment. While looking from the rear, the top jockey pulley should line up with the small cog. If not, turn one of the two screws until it does.

Then, while pedaling, push with one hand to shift into the largest cog and try to push as far towards the inside as possible. If you can push the chain into the spokes, turn the OTHER limit screw in till you cannot. If you can't get the chain to go into the largest cog, turn the limit screw out!

This sets the inside and outside limits of the derailleur to prevent the chain from coming off to either side of the cassette.

Now, reattach the cable. Remove slack, but cable should NOT be taught!

Start pedaling the bike. Move the shifter into the 2nd position (click). This may or may not move the chain into the 2nd gear. While pedaling the bike, turn the barrel adjuster out until it starts wanting to "Climb" into the 3rd gear. If you have to turn the barrel adjuster too much, start over and take a little more slack out of the cable to start. Once you've turn the adjuster till the "climbing" starts, turn the barrel adjuster back IN one full turn.

Shift through all the gears. Upshifts should be immediate and crisp, downshifts should be consistant.

If upshifts are slow, turn the barrel adjuster out 1/4 turn until they are.
If downshifts are hesitant, turn barrel adjuster in 1/4 turn until they're smooth.

If you can't find the balance between smooth upshifts and downshifts throughout the full range of gears, your derailleur hanger may be bent. Take it to your LBS and have them check alignment. (special tool for this)
hey thanks, but i pretty much did all that already. when i set the cable to a looser tension, it did manage to climb just one cog from smallest to second smallest. however as the cable got more taut from the pull it jumped cogs again. i am seriously questioning whether or not the sram xray gripshifters are compatible with shimano xt rear derailler, although i have read on a review board that many riders use that setup and it works pretty darn well. i dont know what else to do, but im taking it to my friends place to have him take a look.
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Old 07-24-02, 04:12 PM   #6
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sorry but when you said 2:1 for xray to shimano, does that mean that its normal for me to skip 1 cog at a time? each click jumps a cog, right? so 3-4 clicks total to go through the entire cassette? if that's the case then yeah it's the shifter's problem. thanks i knew i was donig everything else right then.
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Old 07-24-02, 04:14 PM   #7
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Cable's on the inboard side of the anchor bolt, right? And it should go around the inboard side of the washer's metal "finger" too, if your derailleur's washer has a "finger." If the cable is anchored differently than intended, you'd get wacky indexing.

If in doubt on this at all, take the bolt and washer off and note the groove built into the aluminum where the cable is supposed to lie.

edit: doh, I see from your latest post that maybe you have the ESP version for ESP derailleurs
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Old 07-24-02, 04:20 PM   #8
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what is ESP??? sorry im a newbie
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Old 07-24-02, 04:26 PM   #9
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No worries

ESP is GripShift/SRAM's own non-Shimano-compatible type of derailleur and shifter. It's designed to take twice as much cable travel as a Shimano derailleur to accomplish one shift, this is the 2:1 ratio mentioned. edit: 'scuse me, I got that backwards. 1:1 is ESP, 2:1 is Shimano An example would be this derailleur here.

Can you find a model number on your shifter to help nail down exactly what model it is? Should be letters and numbers...

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Old 07-24-02, 04:28 PM   #10
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srt 800x 81
srt 800x 11

are my right and left shifters
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Old 07-24-02, 04:40 PM   #11
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I think those are the Shimano versions. I sincerely wish SRAM, Shimano and other cycling companies would get into the habit of listing specs and info for older products, like computer companies do. As it is, I have to trust to my memory and my memory thinks there were no ESP X-Rays, and if there were, their model number would probably start with "ESP-" instead of "SRT-", like ESP shifter model numbers do today.

You might want to drag it down to the LBS, if your friend doesn't see anything else to correct.
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Old 07-24-02, 06:37 PM   #12
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I'm betting that the original problem was that the cogs and chain were worn out. Replacing the derailleur, in that case, was fixing something that wasn't broken. Replace the cassette and chain, and I'll bet it works just fine.
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Old 07-24-02, 10:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by D*Alex
I'm betting that the original problem was that the cogs and chain were worn out. Replacing the derailleur, in that case, was fixing something that wasn't broken. Replace the cassette and chain, and I'll bet it works just fine.
yeah maybe. this is what i get for buying used parts. friend got a new chain for me to try but the cassette is in pretty darn good condition. didnt have time to go to friends house today, next monday he will look at everything and install my crankset (which might be too worn to put on, if thats the case im throwing that crap out).
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Old 07-24-02, 10:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by mechBgon
I think those are the Shimano versions. I sincerely wish SRAM, Shimano and other cycling companies would get into the habit of listing specs and info for older products, like computer companies do. As it is, I have to trust to my memory and my memory thinks there were no ESP X-Rays, and if there were, their model number would probably start with "ESP-" instead of "SRT-", like ESP shifter model numbers do today.

You might want to drag it down to the LBS, if your friend doesn't see anything else to correct.
yeah thats what im saying! my friend was also the one who sold these shifters to me. he stands firm that these are shimano compatible, not ESP. the weird thing is that it shifts every other cog perfectly. definately supporting the theory that it might be ESP 2:1 ratio pull. I now run it 1-3-5-7 with 1 being the granny gear. works like it was designed like that. no matter how much i play with the barrels and limit screws (im pretty sure by now that i installed everything correctly) the shifter still pulls every other cog. DAlex mentioned that the problem was in the chain and cassette, yet both of which worked perfectly fine before i installed the grip shifters and the rear derailler. i switched between 3 different deraillers with the new gripshift as shifter and all 3 had the problem. but before i put the grip shift on, the stock Altus derialler worked fine with the old chain and new cassette and the stock gripshifters.

btw, how can i even tell if these gripshifters are Sram Xrays? they are smoked clear but do not say Xray anywhere. the only labels are srt 800x 11 and 81. could it be that these arent even Xrays (even though the friend i bought it from swears that these are Xrays and are shimano compatible)???

also, thanks you guys for sticking with me here and giving me helpful replies
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Old 07-24-02, 10:59 PM   #15
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The X Ray name came from the see-through housings, so that should be an X Ray by virtue of that aspect, and the 800 model number confirms it since they were called that. I stumbled across a link suggesting that there was a ESP X-Ray but it was numbered 900, not 800.

Just to go back for a second, you did confirm the cable goes around the backside of the derailleur's cable-anchor bolt, right? If it came across the outside, that would goof things up.
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Old 07-25-02, 01:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by mechBgon
The X Ray name came from the see-through housings, so that should be an X Ray by virtue of that aspect, and the 800 model number confirms it since they were called that. I stumbled across a link suggesting that there was a ESP X-Ray but it was numbered 900, not 800.

Just to go back for a second, you did confirm the cable goes around the backside of the derailleur's cable-anchor bolt, right? If it came across the outside, that would goof things up.
cable clamped right into the groove, if that's what you meant

dig this, i had a 7sp, wanted to upgrade to 8sp, and turns out i got a 4 sp bike LOL because of the shifters which seem to be 2:1
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Old 07-25-02, 06:43 AM   #17
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ummm...
the indexing is in the shifters, not the derailleurs. Once again, if you are replacing the derailleurs, you are not fixing the problem.

Also, when a cassette is worn out, you must replace both the chain and cassette. Replacing only the chain will not fix a gear-jumping problem due to worn components, and will only ruin a new chain in very little time. Likewise, replacing a worn cassette without also replacing the chain will ruin a new cassette, although the gear-skipping may subside for a while.

Just out of curiosity-how many speeds is the indexing made for? How many cogs are on the cassette? Usually, if they are not the same, they are not compatible. If you are trying to use a 6-speed index shifter on an 8-speed cassette, it will not work. Mix-and-match is not something I'd be trying. Also, if you set the shifter to friction mode (if it has one), and the skipping continues, well, there's your answer..........
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Old 07-25-02, 10:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by D*Alex
ummm...
the indexing is in the shifters, not the derailleurs. Once again, if you are replacing the derailleurs, you are not fixing the problem.

Also, when a cassette is worn out, you must replace both the chain and cassette. Replacing only the chain will not fix a gear-jumping problem due to worn components, and will only ruin a new chain in very little time. Likewise, replacing a worn cassette without also replacing the chain will ruin a new cassette, although the gear-skipping may subside for a while.

Just out of curiosity-how many speeds is the indexing made for? How many cogs are on the cassette? Usually, if they are not the same, they are not compatible. If you are trying to use a 6-speed index shifter on an 8-speed cassette, it will not work. Mix-and-match is not something I'd be trying. Also, if you set the shifter to friction mode (if it has one), and the skipping continues, well, there's your answer..........
8sp shifter and 8 cogs on the cassette. chain is old but was lightly used, cassette looks to be pretty new, no wear on teeth. im going to try a new chain next week to see if that helps. right now i'm pretty fixed that it might be a 2:1 ratio thats why it shifts two cogs instead of one. i'll take off the chain and shift through on the shifter and see if it shifts 1 cog or 2 cogs without the chain, maybe that will give me the answer
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Old 07-25-02, 10:54 AM   #19
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Basically, if four clicks of the shifter are making the rear derailleur traverse the entire width of an 8sp cassette, and the cable is in the groove on the derailleur, then the cable is getting pulled too far per click... somehow.

Worst-case scenario, you can pick up a take-off 8sp GripShift right-side shifter from the LBS for perhaps US$15-20 and have mismatched shifters, if your shifter is an ESP model... which your friend says it isn't. But the only cause I can imagine for making the Shimano version pull the cable too fast would be if the cable were mis-routed inside the shifter. If you didn't check that out, might want to... Anyone got any other ideas how it could happen? :confused:
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Old 07-25-02, 01:46 PM   #20
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The two thing I can come up with is that the cable in the shifter may not be installed correctly. If one remember's you had to loop the cable around the inside of the shifter. Given that it is Grip Shift X-Ray which is a 8 speed shifter using a XT der. It should work great. Also maybe some of the those ramps/teeth on the inside of the shifter are flattened out a little. If the chain and cassette is not the problem those are the only things I can come up with.
By the way 2:1 ratio is standard for that model. A ratio of 1:1 is XTR and ESP stuff.
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Old 07-25-02, 11:21 PM   #21
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i will double check the shifter. today was quite a day for me. me and buddy were planning to ride but when i biked to his place my rear derailler pulley popped out when i was crossing the street. took us a while to finally get the parts and fix it. no big deal we drive up to a farther hill and decide to ride there. on the first climb the chain snaps. and my friends middlechainring got bent. then we go back dwn and drive home and go straight to a shop and got his ring hammered back and i bought a new chain and sme lube. eventually we went back up to a local hill and it was not satisfying at all.

anyway, i am a little confused about the ratio thing. 2:1 means what? 1:1 means what? i thought that 2:1 means 2 cogs per click? sorry just a little confusion.

i will check the shifter cable routing tomorrow because i stashed the bike at my friends place for now. that could just be it *fingers crossed*
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Old 07-26-02, 07:22 AM   #22
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This will explain the ratio question.
http://www.sram.com/tech_info/faq_display.asp?faq_id=12
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Old 07-26-02, 12:15 PM   #23
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I had this problem once. It turned out that my cluster was an "SG" model, and my derailuer system needed an "HG" model.

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Old 07-26-02, 02:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I had this problem once. It turned out that my cluster was an "SG" model, and my derailuer system needed an "HG" model.

Leonard
what does that mean?
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Old 07-26-02, 02:24 PM   #25
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also last night i took apart the shifter to take a look and true it was not routed correctly. it didnt coil around. hopefully thats the problem. i bought a new cable today and when i get a chance to work on it (bikes at friends house) hope everything turns out ok. thanks guys for sticking with me *thumbup* let you guys know if problem persists
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