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Old 09-11-05, 09:52 AM   #1
scum1
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New wheelset? Was I had?

Ok so I had a problem with my rear bearings and took the bike to the lbs. Somehow I got talked into a new wheelset.
Bontranger race with Vittoria Zaffiro tires. So far I really like them since they have sealed bearings. I did not realize my old wheelset( stock on the trek 1200 2003 model) did not have sealed bearings and I ride in the rain a lot. So does anyone have this wheelset? if so how do you like it. I paid 297 out the door with tires and instalation. Was that a ok deal. It was a markdown from their usual price. I know they sure look nice. They are still working on my old wheelset which I'm going to use on building a new project. I figure I'll learn while building a bike up from scratch. I have since figured out my old set has sealed bearings. The look is totally different though. My old set was Matrix Aurora and was stock on my trek 1200 2003 model. They are still working on my old rear wheel. I have not rode on the new wheelset yet. Should I take them back since I was mislead into believing my old set was not sealed. Whats the real difference in the wheelsets? I ride in the rain a lot since it rains here a lot. What should I do after riding in the rain since the lbs said that is waht damaged my old wheelset bearings?
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Old 09-11-05, 10:12 AM   #2
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"Sealed" bearings are a buzz word. Most often this means the bearings are "cartidge" bearings with little rubber seals on the sides. Unfortunatley, water can get past these seals just the same as the rubber seal on a loose ball bearing component. When a "sealed cartridge bearing" get contaminated it's a lot more difficult to service the bearings. For this reason I favor loose ball type hubs since they are easy to service. Hubs like this should be serviced once a year or so.
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Old 09-11-05, 10:16 AM   #3
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^^^^....what he said.
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Old 09-11-05, 10:16 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by scum1
I paid 297 out the door with tires and instalation.
Had or not, isn't that incredibly cheap?
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Old 09-11-05, 10:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by scum1
I have since figured out my old set has sealed bearings. The look is totally different though. My old set was Matrix Aurora and was stock on my trek 1200 2003 model. They are still working on my old rear wheel. I have not rode on the new wheelset yet. Should I take them back since I was mislead into believing my old set was not sealed. Whats the real difference in the wheelsets? I ride in the rain a lot since it rains here a lot. What should I do after riding in the rain since the lbs said that is waht damaged my old wheelset bearings?
Cup and ball hubs also have seals.Some much more effective than others. It's not about seals or no seals,it's about the difference between cup and ball hubs and cartridge bearing hubs.Either can vary from junk to very good.
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Old 09-11-05, 10:25 AM   #6
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It was a mark down and they Definitley are a lot sharper looking set o wheels. The lbs was pushing them because they said it would be less maintence due to the sealed bearings. The Matrix Aurora set only had a little rubber cap covering the bearings but the new wheelset is like all metal. The 24 spokes also look very nice and the braking surface looks a lot wider and nicer.
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Old 09-11-05, 10:26 AM   #7
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Matrix Aurora is the just make and model of the rim, not the hub. Most likely, your original wheels came with Shimano Tiagra hubs. Check the markings on your front wheel hub if you still have it. If it says Tiagra or Shimano 4400, then it's definitely a regular cup and cone hub using loose balls. If you have Adobe Acrobat reader, click on this link.
http://www.shimano.com.au/publish/co...-4400-1861.pdf
I agree with Nessism. Loose ball hubs are easier to work on. With sealed bearring hubs, you have to completely replace the cartridge bearrings. That's not tough if you have a bearring puller and know the particular type of cartridge bearring replacement. But water will affect any hub if it's ridden in the rain frequently.
If you're planning on learning how to build up a bike you should learn how to disassemble and replace balls on hubs. Balls and cone wrenches are all that's needed and they're cheap.
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Old 09-11-05, 10:44 AM   #8
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Yes it was Tiagra hubs. How or where would I buy replacement cartridge bearings for the bontrager? How about buying replacement rear hub for the Tiagra? Could I use a different shimano rear hub since I can't seem to find a tiagra rear hub? How about this hub http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Shimano-105-...QQcmdZViewItem

How dificult is it to replace a hub?

Last edited by scum1; 09-11-05 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 09-11-05, 11:06 AM   #9
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You'd have to rebuild the whole wheel - easy (but time consuming) for some, impossible for others (like me). I agree with the others in that traditional hubs are the way to go.
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Old 09-11-05, 11:59 AM   #10
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So you guys are saying my original wheelset with the Tiagra was better than my new Bontrager(at least the hub part)?
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Old 09-11-05, 02:33 PM   #11
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The Bontrager race is a far superior wheelset. The hubs are DT Swiss, some of the smoothest and best hubs out there, and there is very little maintenance with this wheelset. Loose ball is EASIER to rebuild, but is more maintenance typically. I've rebuilt DT hubs before and its not hard in my opinion.
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Old 09-11-05, 04:40 PM   #12
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Maybe I missed it, but what exactly was broken on your original wheel? You said the shop talked you into a new wheelset. You were indeed "had" if there was nothing wrong with the original wheel other than needing to be cleaned and re-greased.
Look at this link.
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=105
Look at the "Hub Overhaul" section, steps 1-13. Particularly look at the "Hub and Part Inspection" section immediately following step 12.
If your hub cup was damaged, then you did indeed need a new hub. The shop would take a new hub, new spokes, and the original rim and built you a new wheel. Along with the parts, you'd have to pay the shop for the labor involved in putting all these parts, hub, rim, spokes, spoke nipples together. Frankly, with the quality and cost of that particular wheel, it would probably be better to buy an entirely new prebuilt wheel. But if only the cones or the balls were scratched up, then they could simply have been replaced the cones and balls for about $10 for parts and maybe $10-$20 in labor.
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Old 09-11-05, 06:24 PM   #13
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The problem was my being sold on the fact that the cartridge bearing would hold up better in wet conditions and require less Maintenace. I forget what they said was damaged but it only cost me 48 bucks to repair. The"had" part was that the cart bearings would be better. I now have 2 wheel sets and will be using my old wheelset on a bike project later(when I get some cash)
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Old 09-11-05, 06:44 PM   #14
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You didn't get screwed. That's a fair price. Just look on Ebay. I have about 5,000 miles on my Bontrager Race wheels. They're a very good wheel set, light, strong and very well regarded. I think the new Race wheels will do better in wet conditions. Why? With cartridge bearings you have two seals to penetrate; the hub seal and the seal on the cartridge bearing, too. I think after you ride the Bontragers a little bit, you'll notice the weight and aero advantages. Besides, it's always a good idea to have a spare set. I do...

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Old 09-11-05, 06:49 PM   #15
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I think after you ride the Bontragers a little bit, you'll notice the weight and aero advantages.
They may look more aero,but any real advantage is pretty nebulous.
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Old 09-11-05, 07:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney
They may look more aero,but any real advantage is pretty nebulous.
... and they're probably not that much lighter, either.
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Old 09-11-05, 08:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seely
The Bontrager race is a far superior wheelset. The hubs are DT Swiss, some of the smoothest and best hubs out there, ......
You might want to check that spec...The X- lites get the Dt swiss hubs,lower ranking ones just are just listed as 'cartridge bearing'.
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Old 09-11-05, 08:13 PM   #18
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You got new wheels for your bike, you should be happy! 300 bucks for new wheels and new tires? I have Vittoria Zaffiros and I love them. I paid 65 bucks just for the tires, so I would say you got a pretty good deal.

You said you like the way your new wheels look - don't think that's not important. If you like your bike, you'll ride it more, and get stronger, and you'll be faster and healthier. How about riding your old wheels when it's raining, and the new ones when it's not? That way, the new wheels stay nice, and you can overhaul the loose ball hubs once a year.
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Old 09-12-05, 07:25 AM   #19
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You got new wheels for your bike, you should be happy! 300 bucks for new wheels and new tires? I have Vittoria Zaffiros and I love them. I paid 65 bucks just for the tires, so I would say you got a pretty good deal.

You said you like the way your new wheels look - don't think that's not important. If you like your bike, you'll ride it more, and get stronger, and you'll be faster and healthier. How about riding your old wheels when it's raining, and the new ones when it's not? That way, the new wheels stay nice, and you can overhaul the loose ball hubs once a year.
Your right on all points. I can learn to overhaul my old wheels and use them to train on when it rains. I'll have to get me a new cassette for the old set that way I can just swap out wheelsets easily? I love to ride but I'm no mechanic(yet)
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Old 09-12-05, 09:10 AM   #20
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It seems that you got a good deal.

In my experience with wheel hubs & bearings, the lower level Shimano designs (Sora, Tiagra) claim to have seals, but they are not water resistant, let alone waterproof. The cartridge bearings of the Bontrager design should be a great improvement. The higher level Shimano cup and cone designs, e.g. 105, Ultegra etc. have better designed seals, but they leak eventually and problems arise when this goes un-noticed. I had a set of road wheels built with Deore MTB hubs, and these are the best reliability cup and cone hubs I've owned - I believe down to the incorporation of two seals in the design. They have served about 4 years service, with periodic maintainance and are just about to need replacement.

The advantage of cartrigde bearings is that when they need attention, the balls, inner and outer races are all replaced together as one unit - clean, and smooth. With most cup and cone hub designs the cup race cannot be replaced, being fixed into the hub shell. If this is damaged in any way, replacement balls and cones will suffer damage in short order - the hub becomes permanantly unreliable.

For some (non lightweight applications) it would be great if the technology that brought us the sealed cartridge bottom bracket could be applied to yield a true "all weather" reliable hub. Either that or please, Shimano make the cups replaceable and the hubs truly repairable .

Anyway, enjoy the new wheels

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Old 09-12-05, 09:24 AM   #21
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My experience is that rims fail from brake track abrasion or other mechanical wear long before good hubs wear out. I have a set of Dura Ace hubs on their second set of rims with well over 30,000 miles on the original cones and hub races. They get an annual cleaning and relube at about 6000 mile intervals.

I've also found Ultegra and 105 hubs to be equally durable if given even a modicum of maintainance.
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Old 09-12-05, 09:59 AM   #22
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YOu didn't get screwed, but you might learn to say no.
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Old 09-12-05, 10:49 AM   #23
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YOu didn't get screwed, but you might learn to say no.
LOL actually this is the first thing I bought for the bike(beside tubes/tires) in 2 years.
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Old 09-12-05, 01:29 PM   #24
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I've never used Tiagra or Sora hubs, just Ultegra and 105. What's the difference in the seals?
With 105 and Ultegra, it seems like you'd have to either ride through fields of pumice, over tighten them or adjust them way too loose, or run them for hundreds of miles with no grease in order to damage the cones or cups.
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Old 09-12-05, 03:25 PM   #25
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That's true. I'm still riding a pair of 105 hubs that I got in 1986 - almost 20 years ago! They're as smooth as the day I got them. They have seen three different pairs of rims, four freewheels, and maybe 9 overhauls w/new ball bearings. Oh, have replaced the rear axle twice. They are currently on my cyclocross/commuting bike, so they see plenty of mud, water, and dirt.
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