Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-03-02, 05:23 AM   #1
poululla
Great guy
Thread Starter
 
poululla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denmark
Bikes:
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Stupid bloody spokes!!

Here is the story, my rear wheel keeps on breaking spokes. I have Campagnolo Record 10 speed gruppo. The spokes are DT Swiss (very good according to the LBS) and the rims is MAVIC OPEN PRO. I weigh 77 kg's (169 lbs). My LBS claim that I may weigh to much, therefor the breaking spokes. If this is true, do I need to upgrade my rim to a MAVIC CXP33, to compensate for my "weight". I really do not feel like buying a new set of wheels, I just bought a house, so my finances is a bit tight for the next few months (years!!??)
I have used a set of wheels with MAVIC CXP33's before, and was quite happy with them.
Any ideas guys? Thanks in advance
poululla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 05:50 AM   #2
RiPHRaPH
Don't Believe the Hype
 
RiPHRaPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: chicagoland area
Bikes: 1999 Steelman SR525, 2002 Lightspeed Ultimate, 1988 Trek 830, 2008 Scott Addict
Posts: 2,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i ride open pro's with the same spokes. this wheelset is very sturdy and normally bombproof! i weigh 180lbs and had a problem with broken spokes on the same NON-DRIVETRAIN SIDE - i'd be going up a hill, standing and stomping and hear ---POP!! the fix isn't simply to keep replacing the spoke....the LBS has to back off the tension on most all the spokes and nearly rebuild the wheel. my shop did it for nothing because i was always in there and bought the wheels from them initially.,....no more broken spokes since then.
RiPHRaPH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 06:18 AM   #3
chewa
The Flying Scot
 
chewa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Queensferry Scotland and London (and France)
Bikes: Custom (Colin Laing) 531c fast tourer/audax, 1964 Flying Scot Continental, 1995 Cinelli Supercorsa, Holdsworth Mistral single speed, Dahon Speed 6 (folder), Micmo Sirocco and a few more
Posts: 1,902
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I may be wrong, but I thought the whole point of spokes was that they are strong when in tension and therefore strengthen a rim. Don't think i's a problem with the rim, just the spoke tension must be out. maybe some spokes are overtensioned compared to the rest.
__________________
plus je vois les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens

1985 Sandy Gilchrist-Colin Laing built 531c Audax/fast tourer.
1964 Flying Scot Continental (531)
1995 Cinelli Supercorsa (Columbus SLX)
1980s Holdsworth Mistral fixed (531)
2005 Dahon Speed 6 (folder)
(YES I LIKE STEEL)
2008 Viking Saratoga tandem
2008 Micmo Sirocco Hybrid (aluminium!)
2012 BTwin Rockrider 8.1
chewa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 06:52 AM   #4
ljbike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Bikes:
Posts: 1,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Your weight has nothing to do with it. At 169lbs there shouldn't be any undue strain on the spokes or the rims. A properly made wheel should have equal tension on ALL spokes.

A wheel will run true even if the tension is not equal.

The next time you get your wheel back, pluck the spokes with your fingernail. They should all sound almost the same; if not, have him do the wheel over.
__________________
ljbike
ljbike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 08:13 AM   #5
lotek
Forum Admin
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
Posts: 17,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well for what its worth I thought the Open Pro is mavics top of
the linerim (other than prebuilt stuff like Ksyriums) so going to a
CPX33 wouldn't really change anything.
As stated above the problem is in the spokes, not the rim.
One suggestion might be to go to a butted spoke. Although
counter intuitive (smaller guage spoke) the theory is the butted
spoke is more flexible than a straight guage spoke.
I know in the past you've really praised your LBS, but on
this issue if they're truely saying the RIM is wrong for your
weight they are, as Pokey says, "full of hooey".
Have them rebuild the wheels. while they are at it, ask if you
can watch/assist/learn, especially if they are going to relace
the wheel with DB spokes. A great learning experience and a
skill that not many folks have anymore.

Marty
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 08:21 AM   #6
Precision Pedal
Just Pedal
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There are instances when a wheel is built if one does not relieve the tension before it is ridden this can lead to broken spokes. There have also been cases of some production runs of spokes having the heads pop off. However it sounds to me like there is too much tension on the spokes without having the stress relieved.
Precision Pedal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 08:23 AM   #7
mrfix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: mass
Bikes:
Posts: 942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I,ve been building wheels for a long time, I perfer wheelsmith spokes over DT spokes but I don't believe one is truely stronger that the other. Your weight has nothing to do with the broken spoke problem you have. Your spokes are breaking for one of two reasons. Reason 1: the rim you have is bent and the LBS is straightening the rim with over stressed spoke tension in one area. Reason 2: The LBS you are using doesn't know how to properly build a wheel. The spokes should be tensioned to about 105kg on the drive side for recreational riding, but most importantly, the spoke tension has to even around the wheel, I like to get them all within 1 or 2 kg of each other. If your wheels are being built using straight rims, and the spokes are tightened to the proper tension and tensioned evenly your wheels should be able to carry your weight plus bags for many many trouble free miles. I also like to get the wheel straight using dial indicators, I like to see wheel be within .001" round and .002" true before they leave my shop. They also need to be properly dished, but that has nothing to do with broken spokes if everything else is within spec.
mrfix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 09:38 AM   #8
mechBgon
Senior Member
 
mechBgon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 6,957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lots of good advice already given I would add that obviously, the spoke tensions should be only compared to other spokes on the same side of the wheel... you will have much lower tension on the rear non-drive side as a whole, naturally.

DT spokes are certainly good quality, and in my experience it's very unusual for them to break under any circumstance (ditto for Wheelsmith). My guess is there wasn't enough tension initially, or the spokes lost tension as their elbows settled against the hub (which many wheelbuilders do during building as a preventative measure). With low tension, the non-drive side may suffer temporary loss of spoke tension as you ride, so the spoke goes limp-taut-limp-taut-limp-taut... and fatigue is aggravated. Just a speculation.
mechBgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-02, 11:26 AM   #9
roadbuzz
Just ride.
 
roadbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: C-ville, Va
Bikes:
Posts: 3,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by poululla
My LBS claim that I may weigh to much
Bzzzt! Wrong. Next contestant, please.

I, too, had a rear wheel that mysteriously kept breaking spokes. In my case the problem was solved by doing a complete rebuild with new spokes (the rim was fine). If the shop you're dealing with gives advice like that quoted above, I think you should find another shop to do the work.
roadbuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 06:29 AM   #10
DonTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Houston
Bikes:
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As everyone else has said, you have a spoke tension problem. If your LBS cannot figure that out take the wheels to a shop that knows how to properly build a wheel and pay for it, at least your problem will be gone. I had weighed as much as 220 and broke maybe three spokes in 12 years on my touring bike. Yeah I know more spoke on the touring bike, but it had relatively low grade wheels. I bought a new bike with improperly tensioned spokes and broke spokes all the time. Eventually I ended up buying a set of wheel from a different shop. Ask them if they have a spoke tension gauge if they do not go somewhere else.
DonTx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 08:35 AM   #11
Richard Cranium
Senior Member
 
Richard Cranium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the Shawnee Forest
Bikes: LeMond - Gunnar
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Of all the comments previously stated, only Mr FIX seems to have the clue......

Quality parts, regular guy = broken spokes (wrong answer)

Now, the plot thickens, the wheel has been "worked on" several times......

I think we're missing info about that "hop" in the rim that just won't go away.

You damged the rim, the bike shop didn't tell you, corrected the damage by tightening spokes. The corrected spokes are tight beyond spec, and fail after a while.....

On the other hand it COULD be a goof-ball mechanic... evidenced by the "you are heavy" remarks........

Sounds like a new wheel at new bike shop.....is in order.
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 09:02 AM   #12
poululla
Great guy
Thread Starter
 
poululla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denmark
Bikes:
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for all the advice. I have been dealing with my LBS for some time and most of it was good, but recently he seems to suck. I am going to tell him tomorrow that I will have to take my business somewhere else in the future. He reminds me of my previous dentist who specialized in "patchwork" dentistry - just enough so that you had to go back a few months later....
poululla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 09:09 AM   #13
Precision Pedal
Just Pedal
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Cranium

I think we're missing info about that "hop" in the rim that just won't go away.

Sounds like a new wheel at new bike shop.....is in order.
I do not think that a new wheel is in order. I seriously doubt his rear hub has been compromised from broken spokes. The "hop" was not included in his original post, and a wheel does not have to have this present in order for spokes to break. What needs to be done though is for the wheel to be rebuilt by a better qualified mechanic. Spoke tension is the problem. Everyone itterated that here, just used different words. You said it as well in your own way.
Precision Pedal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 09:38 AM   #14
mechBgon
Senior Member
 
mechBgon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Bikes:
Posts: 6,957
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I thought I'd mention for the record that I weigh about 165 pounds and used 32-spoke wheels with 15-16ga. double-butted DT spokes on my road racer... front and rear. The LBS's ideas that you are too heavy are certainly off-base, as everyone's said.

There is a lot of dish on a Campy 9sp or 10sp rear wheel, and it does call for careful building. Good luck with the next build, and if it were me I would use 14-15ga butted spokes and a fresh rim, since rims sometimes take a warp when spokes break. Hope it all works out for the best...
mechBgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 10:59 AM   #15
lotek
Forum Admin
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
Posts: 17,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Cranium
Now, the plot thickens, the wheel has been "worked on" several times......

I think we're missing info about that "hop" in the rim that just won't go away.
Richard,
Where did you get this info? One can assume each broken
spoke resulted in trip to the shop.
I didn't see anything in any of the posts about wheel hop.
Did I miss something or is this pure conjecture?

Just Curious
Marty
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-02, 09:19 PM   #16
Richard Cranium
Senior Member
 
Richard Cranium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the Shawnee Forest
Bikes: LeMond - Gunnar
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey truing wheels over the internet is hard----...

Usually posts are short on specifics, like how long and well did the wheel work in the first place, or did it?

I mispoke regarding a "whole" wheel, I meant rebuild it...with a new rim and spokes..maybe....
Richard Cranium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-02, 01:55 AM   #17
poululla
Great guy
Thread Starter
 
poululla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denmark
Bikes:
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OK, here is more information about the wheel. The wheel has been completely rebuild after 2 spokes broke in a race. The wheel looked pretty warped that time....My LBS used new spokes after we found out that the original wheel builder used different spoke lengths!! This is now the second time that a spoke has broken, and this is a re-build, re-spoked wheel!
I think we all are in agreeance that my weight has nothing to do with it, but that it has instead something to do with spoke tension, when he tried to true the wheel after the first re-build.

What annoyes me is that I now have to confront my LBS with this information. Having a good relationship with your LBS is paramount.
poululla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-02, 06:21 AM   #18
WoodyUpstate
xc AND road
 
WoodyUpstate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Bikes:
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If, after dismantling the wheel, the rim is warped (lay it on a flat surface and watch it rock), it's time for a new rim as it will be impossible to get even tension on the spokes.

I "enjoyed" this scenario last summer when my rear MTB wheel came back from the LBS trued, but had loose spokes and some very tight spokes - on the same side of the wheel. I asked the wrench about it and he said the rim was toast, and not to ride it. He didn't charge me for the truing. I took the wheel apart and the rim was badly warped. No amount of truing or new spokes could have saved it.
WoodyUpstate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-02, 09:49 AM   #19
Buddha Knuckle
Infamous Dumpster Diver
 
Buddha Knuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: West Philly, PA
Bikes: '89 Nishiki Cascade (set-up as a tourer); '99 Gary Fisher Aquila; late 80's John Howard (by Dave Hesch); '70 Schwinn 3spd
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One other possibility...

I read about spoke elbow/flange hole mismatch problems on Peter White's website. If your spoke elbow does not fit snugly in the hub's flange hole, the spoke breaks from fatigue much sooner. The fix is to use tiny brass washers at the hub/spoke interface. I doubt this is the problem, but just for the sake of completeness...

By the way, I agree. Your LBS mechanic is a boob.

BK
Buddha Knuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:38 PM.