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Old 10-19-05, 11:56 AM   #1
oboeguy
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EDIT: Project is complete! See here for my celebration post. Original post below:

******************

Inspired by this thread, I'm here to ask about possibly upgrading the aging (and skipping) 7-speed Shimano RSX setup on my Lemond Reno (1998 model). My motivation, aside from more gear choices is also to finally eliminate the annoying chain rub which is part of having a trim-less FD shifter. With 105 going to 10-speed next year, this seems to be a good time to pick-up some 105 9-speed stuff on the cheap (relatively). The bike already has a one year old 105 RD because the previous RD was mangled in a freak accident, so presumably that will not require an upgrade. Otherwise, everything is stock (well aside from the chain of course, which has been replaced a few times). Some questions:

- Any issues with a 12-26 cassette? (I have 12-24, IIRC or maybe 11-24 currently, but want the extra help of the 26 for the steepest climbs)

- Will I need a new FD? As I mentioned above, trim is good, but can the stock FD handle it?

- Will I need a new hub? This would be both a good and a bad thing: excuse to upgrade wheel (good) but extra cost (bad). A propos, IIRC, the rear rim has a dent which my local mechanic said might *cough* require *cough* a new rim. So maybe a new wheel is order anyway? Also, is my timing good or could I wait around a bit more? (say until Xmas is closer and my dissertation is closer to defense )

- Any tools I should get to try putting it together myself? It can be a multi-weekend project is necessary, because I don't plan to ride the road bike much over the winter (I have my folder for commutes as it is). As seen on these pages, I recently picked-up a workstand and a truing stand to encourage this sort of thing. OTOH, if my local guy can put together a decent deal I might simply go with him. We'll see. Note: I have an old chainwhip (like 10 years old), don't know if it's still useful.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by oboeguy; 11-13-05 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 10-19-05, 01:24 PM   #2
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A few years ago I upgraded a friend's 7-speed RSX triple to 9-speed 105 triple. In this case I replaced the defunct shifters, cassette, chain, and complete rear hub. The original derailleurs worked pefectly with the 9-speed drivetrain. I was surprised how well it shifted and on the first adjustment.
If possible you may be able to replace the freehub shell instead of the entire hub assembly avoiding a wheel re-build. But if you need a new rim I would be inclined to replace the entire wheel.
Late 7-speed frames were mostly 130mm dropout spacing. Since yours is 1998 vintage, I would expect it to also be 130mm. If not, then you have to decide if it should be spread to accept the 9-speed assembly.

Compare the 9-speed component costs with comparable 10-speed costs. It may make more sense to go 10-speed since it will be around longer and the extra cog is good to have. The required component changes are the same.

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Old 10-19-05, 01:48 PM   #3
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Thanks Al! The key behind the choice of 9 versus 10 speed is WAF, aka Wife Approval Factor. Well, that and guilt over spending too much on a bike I now only ride on weekends "in season". Sure, it's the bike I'll use for centuries (without the wife, folder with) so I make-up lots of miles on it that way, but stil... If I could pull off the upgrade for less than say $250 after Ferengi discount (you know, 20% off coupon if I can find one I haven't used, sale prices and Team Performance), I'd be thrilled. No way that's happening with 10 speed.

So what's this freehub shell business? Pardon my no0bishness, but I can't say that I've ever heard of it. TIA.
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Old 10-19-05, 07:45 PM   #4
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Park Tool calls it the "outer shell". Shimano, on their 105 hub exploded view calls it the "freewheel hub body", even though it's a freehub, not a freewheel- go figure. At any rate, it's the splined cylinder that a cassette slides over. With some hubs this piece can be replaced or upgraded without the need to replace the entire hub. In some cases it will allow a 7-speed hub to be upgraded to an 8/9/10 speed hub. In some cases hubs can be converted from Shimano to Campagnolo (or back). I don't know if this is possible with your hub. You could ask a good shop mechanic to check it out.
If you need a new rim it would make more sense to have a custom conventional wheel built.
There is nothing wrong with your idea of going to 9-speed instead of 10, especially if you are budget constrained.
Good luck with the dessertation, some things in life are more important than bike components, a few anyway.
Here is a link to generalized instructions for servicing a freehub:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=118

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Old 10-25-05, 08:07 AM   #5
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Well, the 20% off Performance coupons are back so I find myself thinking of the upgrade again. After some fruitless searching I've emailed Lemond to ask about the spacing of the frame. I guess I'll stop by my local guy with the road bike one of these days if I get home early enough to ask about it and the hub "shell" thing.
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Old 10-25-05, 08:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboeguy
Well, the 20% off Performance coupons are back so I find myself thinking of the upgrade again. After some fruitless searching I've emailed Lemond to ask about the spacing of the frame. I guess I'll stop by my local guy with the road bike one of these days if I get home early enough to ask about it and the hub "shell" thing.
It's a steel frame. It's either 130 which is correct for a 8/9/10 speed hub or it's the comprmise 128 which also works. Move on to something else.
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Old 10-25-05, 08:30 AM   #7
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Thanks syd, if you say 128mm is good enough, then it is. Call me cautious. Well without that out of the way, is there anyway to know by looking myself without having to haul the wheel to my local guy if a 9-speed cassette will fit on the hub? This diagram gives a good idea of what this shell thing is but I guess I can't take a look until I have to the tools. So again my question from earlier is will an old chainwhip be OK to use or do I need a more modern one? Also, to remove the chain, do I need a special pin or something? (I also have an old chain tool; I think the pin is missing)
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Old 10-25-05, 08:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboeguy
Thanks syd, if you say 128mm is good enough, then it is. Call me cautious. Well without that out of the way, is there anyway to know by looking myself without having to haul the wheel to my local guy if a 9-speed cassette will fit on the hub? This diagram gives a good idea of what this shell thing is but I guess I can't take a look until I have to the tools. So again my question from earlier is will an old chainwhip be OK to use or do I need a more modern one? Also, to remove the chain, do I need a special pin or something? (I also have an old chain tool; I think the pin is missing)
A 9 speed cassette will not fit on a 7 speed shimano hub body. You can change the hub body and redish the wheel,but I'd just buy a 8/9 rear wheel. To get the cassette off, you need a lockring tool and preferabley any chainwhip. A chaintool is good to have too.
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Old 10-25-05, 10:52 AM   #9
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"So again my question from earlier is will an old chainwhip be OK to use or do I need a more modern one? Also, to remove the chain, do I need a special pin or something? (I also have an old chain tool; I think the pin is missing)"

The early 7-speed cassettes used a threaded-on small cog, so you may need to use two chain-whips. And pre-HG chains like the Uniglide can be broken with chain-tools just fine. Count 9 half-turns.

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Old 10-25-05, 11:05 AM   #10
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As to your question on cassette choice. SRAM makes a 12x26 9-speed while Shimano makes both 12x25 and 12x27 so you have three choices.

Sydney is correct about the dropout spacing. In all probability yours is already 130 mm since the same frame probably came with 8 or 9-speed components at a higher price. My son's 1996 Trek came with 7-speed RSX but is spaced 130 mm and my 1992 Trek came with Shimano 105 7-speed and is spaced 128 mm.

You could replace the 7-speed freehub body on your current wheel with an 8/9/10-speed body if the hub, rim and spokes are in good condition. Otherwise a new rear wheel is probably a better alternative.

Your current chainwhip will work. You don't need anything special to remove the old chain and any good chaintool (Park's CT3 is my favorite) will install a new one. BTW, be sure to use a new chain if you replace the cassette. If you go for 9-speed you will require a 9-speed chain.
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Old 10-25-05, 11:11 AM   #11
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So I guess a chainwhip is a chainwhip. Right.

Yikes, new wheels aren't cheap (just checked, 105 rear wheel is like $120!). I know this is straying a bit into the whiney "help me pick XXX component" rather than strict mechanical issues, but what could I get that won't break the bank and compares (i.e. is at least as good) as the "Mavic CXP 12" stock wheels?

Edit: and yes I will definitely be going to a new chain! I'm thinking I should get one with the snazzy "I don't need no stinkin' chain tool" snap-open links. I love my chain cleaner for regular clean-up, but I think a good overnight degreasing bath would be nice. I expect to get the tool to remove at least the 9-speed cassette to give it a bath and toothbrushing too. I have the workstand, and dang it I'll be using it!

Last edited by oboeguy; 10-25-05 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 10-25-05, 11:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
"So again my question from earlier is will an old chainwhip be OK to use or do I need a more modern one? Also, to remove the chain, do I need a special pin or something? (I also have an old chain tool; I think the pin is missing)"The early 7-speed cassettes used a threaded-on small cog, so you may need to use two chain-whips. And pre-HG chains like the Uniglide can be broken with chain-tools just fine. Count 9 half-turns.
It's a '98 Lemond with an HG cassette, Takes a lockring tool and chainwhip to remove. No problem breaking HG chains either.
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Old 10-25-05, 05:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboeguy
I'm thinking I should get one with the snazzy "I don't need no stinkin' chain tool" snap-open links.
Not quite. You won't need the chain tool to remove and replace the chain after it's installed but you will need one to "cut" the chain to the correct length for the initial installation.
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Old 10-27-05, 01:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider
Not quite. You won't need the chain tool to remove and replace the chain after it's installed but you will need one to "cut" the chain to the correct length for the initial installation.
Heh, good point. There's a reasonably priced combo at Performance for the whole set of tools (chainwhip, chain tool and the other little thingie to get the cassette off, whatever it's called).

I'm going through with it the conversion, or at least order the parts for now. The latest 20% off coupon from Performance is too tempting. Also, Lemond tech support emailed me back (very quickly, I might add) to say that the spacing is 130mm so my no0bish fears have been allayed. It may be quite a while before I get it all put together, but that's not so bad. I'm mostly commuting on the folding bike as my primary riding until next "season" (century season, that is) anyway, so having the road bike out of commission for a while is not a big deal (plus 100+miles per week in the winter is not too shabby, IMO).

So one last question, what do I do about cables and bar tapes? Should I get new cables and re-use the old bar tape? The Cinelli cork tape is a little beat up from a couple of crashes, but its still solid over all.
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Old 10-27-05, 02:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboeguy
Heh, good point. There's a reasonably priced combo at Performance for the whole set of tools (chainwhip, chain tool and the other little thingie to get the cassette off, whatever it's called).

I'm going through with it the conversion, or at least order the parts for now. The latest 20% off coupon from Performance is too tempting. Also, Lemond tech support emailed me back (very quickly, I might add) to say that the spacing is 130mm so my no0bish fears have been allayed. It may be quite a while before I get it all put together, but that's not so bad. I'm mostly commuting on the folding bike as my primary riding until next "season" (century season, that is) anyway, so having the road bike out of commission for a while is not a big deal (plus 100+miles per week in the winter is not too shabby, IMO).

So one last question, what do I do about cables and bar tapes? Should I get new cables and re-use the old bar tape? The Cinelli cork tape is a little beat up from a couple of crashes, but its still solid over all.
Don't be cheap.New casing too.
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Old 10-27-05, 02:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney
Don't be cheap.New casing too.
Are you serious? I recently had one of the shifter casings replaced because of damage from a crash (one of the same which nicked the bar tape).
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Old 10-28-05, 07:09 AM   #17
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The order has been placed! Now I need to know where to find the right freehub shell, as Performance doesn't seem to have that sort of thing. Suggestions?
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Old 11-02-05, 07:38 AM   #18
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The stuff has arrived! Apparently the shifters are bundled with cables and housing so there's no decision to be made on replacing the old stuff. I think perhaps that this weekend I'll take a first stab at this project by taking off the current cassette.
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Old 11-03-05, 07:39 AM   #19
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Well, due to circumstance I could not control, I suddenly have time to work on this little upgrade. So this morning I took off the old cassette (you guys are right, my goodness it was easy to do), cut open an empty plastic apple cider jug and dropped the old cassette in for a cleaning (5 parts water one part citrus degreaser). It's not like I have a use for the old cassette but we've been through a lot together so I figured it deserved a cleaning. Well that and I might put it back on for a while until I feel brave enough to change the shifters.

Anyhow, comment and question here. It appears that the freehub shell is the right size for the new cassette. There's a tiny bit of play when I slide it on, but there's a little play when I put the old one back on too. I guess this is normal until the lockring is put on, right? Also, what can I clean off and what needs greasing? Inquiring minds want to know (I'll look at the Park site, of course, but I'll take advice here too!).

Edit: The new cassette came with a wafer-thin washer of sorts on the lockring over the little ridges. I assumme that was for shipping purposes and should be removed. Is that right? TIA.
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Old 11-03-05, 07:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboeguy
Well, due to circumstance I could not control, I suddenly have time to work on this little upgrade. So this morning I took off the old cassette (you guys are right, my goodness it was easy to do), cut open an empty plastic apple cider jug and dropped the old cassette in for a cleaning (5 parts water one part citrus degreaser). It's not like I have a use for the old cassette but we've been through a lot together so I figured it deserved a cleaning. Well that and I might put it back on for a while until I feel brave enough to change the shifters.

Anyhow, comment and question here. It appears that the freehub shell is the right size for the new cassette. There's a tiny bit of play when I slide it on, but there's a little play when I put the old one back on too. I guess this is normal until the lockring is put on, right? Also, what can I clean off and what needs greasing? Inquiring minds want to know (I'll look at the Park site, of course, but I'll take advice here too!).

Edit: The new cassette came with a wafer-thin washer of sorts on the lockring over the little ridges. I assumme that was for shipping purposes and should be removed. Is that right? TIA.
Wrong....Leave it there.
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Old 11-03-05, 08:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydney
Wrong....Leave it there.
Heh, glad I asked.

So what's the deal with chain pins? I haven't messed with a chain in probably 10 years. Can pins be re-used or not? The Park dudes scare me with their talk of peening and whatnot. Oy!
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Old 11-03-05, 08:32 AM   #22
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Shimano recommends specific replacement pins. Sram chains use a removable link. Sram 9 links can be used on shimano 9 chains. A sram 8 link will work on a shimano 8 IG chain, but not a shamano 8 HG chain.
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Old 11-03-05, 08:37 PM   #23
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Want a cheap but decent set of tools? I bought a Nashbar mini little big whatever tool kit for $35. It has all the basic tools for average repairs, all of high enough quality to work well, but still cheap. Works well for me.
I ride RSX now, lacking funds to upgrade, and just bought a new chain. The old one, an HG chain, was taken apart (and put together again), by me, several times without any replacement pin. I may be uttering derk herecies here, but it worked for me. I put plenty of miles on it, and am definitely not wimpy on the drivetrain. (sprints..bla..) I had no problems, and replaced it because I could not fathom a chain lasting much longer. (it had 3500+ mi on it) It never even skipped, nevermind broke.
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Old 11-04-05, 06:18 AM   #24
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I made some progress. I've mostly disassembled the drive train, but I realized now that although the "shell" is slotted correctly for the new casssette, it's not the right size, sooo... the wheel will need a new shell and some redishing. Dang. Maybe I'll just get at new wheel, depending on what the above will cost me (I'm not ready yet to do the redishing myself).
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Old 11-04-05, 04:17 PM   #25
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Yeah, the 9-speed freehubs are 5mm wider than the 7-speed ones... You're 90% there. Just pick up a wider 9-speed freehub and bolt it on. You'll need a big allen-key to remove, 12mm I think.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 11-05-05 at 04:06 PM.
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