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Old 12-03-05, 09:47 PM   #1
FarHorizon
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Various build frustrations...

Trying to put together a Klein Navigator for touring. The front chain ring (single) is to be a 44 tooth with Wetzikon rings on both sides to prevent chain-jump. When I installed this rig on a Shimano 105 double crank and Octalink BB, the Wetzikon rings drug on the chain stay!

Fishing around in the parts box, I came up with an old Deore triple but with square axles! Further fishing found a sealed-bearing BB with square axle. When I tried to install it, the BB threads were larger than the shell! I finally found an English BB and all is well with the cranks.

Question #1 - Is this larger BB Italian or French thread?

Then I tried to install my 27.2 seat post. No go - the seat tube is larger! Best I can measure with my old calipers, the post is somewhere between 30 and 30.6 mm inside diameter.

Question #2 - What is the proper diameter seat post for a 1998 Klein Navigator frame? (YES - I've already checked Sheldon Brown's site - no info there!)

I then installed my Avid 7 "single digit" V-brakes. Putting the spring in the middle hole, I get no spring tension on the arms - they just flop around!

Question #3 - What stupid thing have I overlooked while installing my V-brakes?

I then went to put my wheels on. Surprise! The Klein frame (aluminum) is sized for a 135 mm rear hub! I've only got a 130 mm road hub.

Question #4 - Can I safely compress the 135 mm seat/chain stays to use a 130 mm hub?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 12-03-05, 10:03 PM   #2
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Depending upon the model of hub you are using, I'd buy a longer axle and add a spacer under the lock nut to space it out to 135. When I built up my first Ti mountain frame I used Ultegra hubs (weight weenie issue) to same some grams. Once in you will need to check your wheel dish to make sure everything is where it should be.
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Old 12-03-05, 10:03 PM   #3
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1.Italian BB
2.I don't know if Trek had Klein back then but I seem to remember ordering a 30.6 for a more recent Klein. Best thing is to find a shop with a seat tube sizer or ask a shop that handles the bikes.
3.On most bikes I have dealt with that have the issue you have, just turing the adjuster screws in a fair amount solves the problem. You can try them in the upper hole but i think it will screw up the spring angle to much. I have had to tweak the springs to get them to work right(Not every company drills the holes in a good spot)
4. While I think you can get away with not changing the axle spacing* the best thing to do is get a longer axle and some spacers, $15 and a half hour of work.
* There are some cyclocross frame builders that make their frames 132.5, or so they claim to allow you to run 130 or 135. so they think you can flex it back and forth.
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Old 12-03-05, 10:07 PM   #4
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is this a touring bike for flat terrain? I'm just asking because you'll be cranking 20 teeth more than my granny up front, and only 2 less than the top end. Or is this for a Roloff?

All the rest of the issues, yep.
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Old 12-03-05, 10:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gm1230126
Depending upon the model of hub you are using, I'd buy a longer axle and add a spacer under the lock nut...
Will do. Thanks.
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Old 12-03-05, 10:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
1.Italian BB 2.I don't know if Trek had Klein back then but I seem to remember ordering a 30.6 for a more recent Klein. Best thing is to find a shop with a seat tube sizer or ask a shop that handles the bikes. 3.On most bikes I have dealt with that have the issue you have, just turing the adjuster screws in a fair amount solves the problem. You can try them in the upper hole but i think it will screw up the spring angle to much. I have had to tweak the springs to get them to work right(Not every company drills the holes in a good spot)
Thank you, Rev! I really appreciate your help! My LBS probably has a seat tube sizer, but I'm confident enough to go ahead and buy a post. Any recommendations for a good set-back post in that size?
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Old 12-03-05, 10:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
is this a touring bike for flat terrain? I'm just asking because you'll be cranking 20 teeth more than my granny up front, and only 2 less than the top end...
Yes - I'm in Louisiana - Ain't a hill to be found until you get to the northern part of the state (where I am not...). With an 11-28 rear end and the 44 front, I'll be good for any terrain I'll encounter.

If I want to take the bike elsewhere for a longer ride, I'll keep a front derailleur & triple in the parts box.
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Old 12-04-05, 03:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Trying to put together a Klein Navigator for touring. The front chain ring (single) is to be a 44 tooth with Wetzikon rings on both sides to prevent chain-jump. When I installed this rig on a Shimano 105 double crank and Octalink BB, the Wetzikon rings drug on the chain stay!

Fishing around in the parts box, I came up with an old Deore triple but with square axles!
Absolutley nothing wrong with square taper axles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Further fishing found a sealed-bearing BB with square axle. When I tried to install it, the BB threads were larger than the shell! I finally found an English BB and all is well with the cranks.
Klein is an American mfg so they probably use English threaded BB's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Question #1 - Is this larger BB Italian or French thread?
We really can't say without seeing or using a thread guage. Your on your own on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Then I tried to install my 27.2 seat post. No go - the seat tube is larger! Best I can measure with my old calipers, the post is somewhere between 30 and 30.6 mm inside diameter.
That sounds about right, it is an oversized aluminum frame. Try a MTB seatpost or see below, your best choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Question #2 - What is the proper diameter seat post for a 1998 Klein Navigator frame? (YES - I've already checked Sheldon Brown's site - no info there!)
Why don't you call Klein and find out for sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
I then installed my Avid 7 "single digit" V-brakes. Putting the spring in the middle hole, I get no spring tension on the arms - they just flop around!
What stupid thing have I overlooked while installing my V-brakes?
That is your first mistake, use cantilevers. Your going to have a heck of a time finding road levers to V-brakes. DiaCompe makes them but they're brake levers only, no shifters. Travel Agent work to adapt V to Canti but they aren't the best solution. Just use cantilevers, Shimano and Avid make very nice models that are very reasonable in price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
I then went to put my wheels on. Surprise! The Klein frame (aluminum) is sized for a 135 mm rear hub! I've only got a 130 mm road hub.
Question #4 - Can I safely compress the 135 mm seat/chain stays to use a 130 mm hub?
No, the frame is aluminum and 5mm is past the safe limit. Use a MTB rear hub on your build.

IMO this could have been a very smooth build if you had researched your frame choice better before purchasing it. Lots of guys, me included, buy on impulse of price. Then we get surprised after the fact. What you're putting together is possible. I had a similar surprise when I bought a Campy 8 speed bike and thought it would be an easy swap to 10 like Shimano, boy was I wrong. I spent lots of money fixing that mistake. Good luck

Tim
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Old 12-04-05, 06:31 AM   #9
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#4 The general rule for axles is that they are 11 mm longer than the hub's OLD so 5.5 mm sticks out of each lock nut. A 130 mm hub has a 141 mm axle and a 135 mm hub has a 146 mm axle.

If you really want to do this by-the-book, change the axle and redish the wheel.

However, if you add 2.5 mm of the spacers to each end of your current hub, you will have 3 mm of axle protruding and this is sufficient to keep the wheel in place as the major work is done by the pressure of the qr skewer. Also, you won't have to redish the rim. See Sheldon Brown's write up on this too.

I would not compress an Al frame to make the 130 mm hub fit.
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Old 12-04-05, 08:54 AM   #10
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I was just thinking.(Does not happen much) If you have a post you like you can get a shim to go 27.2-30.6 You might have to get a shim anyway if you want a set back post. I don't have a catalog handy but it seems like they only come in a couple of sizes.
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Old 12-04-05, 09:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Yes - I'm in Louisiana - Ain't a hill to be found until you get to the northern part of the state (where I am not...). With an 11-28 rear end and the 44 front, I'll be good for any terrain I'll encounter.

If I want to take the bike elsewhere for a longer ride, I'll keep a front derailleur & triple in the parts box.
I think I'd go ahead and install the triple. It would even be tough to haul a loaded tourer up across an overpass (or levee) with just a 40 gear-inch low end. And if you really don't ever need a granny, just don't shift into that chainring.
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Old 12-04-05, 10:06 AM   #12
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FWIW, Nashbar has a closeout special on 70mm Italian thread square taper UN-52 cartridge BB right now for something like $15.
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Old 12-04-05, 11:15 AM   #13
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--it could have been a 73mm english thread bb.

--is the klein steel? if so, you could always cold set it. be careful about squeezing aluminum or carbon.
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Old 12-04-05, 01:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider
#4 The general rule for axles is that they are 11 mm longer than the hub's OLD so 5.5 mm sticks out of each lock nut. A 130 mm hub has a 141 mm axle and a 135 mm hub has a 146 mm axle.

If you really want to do this by-the-book, change the axle and redish the wheel.

However, if you add 2.5 mm of the spacers to each end of your current hub, you will have 3 mm of axle protruding and this is sufficient to keep the wheel in place as the major work is done by the pressure of the qr skewer. Also, you won't have to redish the rim. See Sheldon Brown's write up on this too.
You really should add all 5 mm to the left side, then re-dish.

This will maintain the correct relationship betwixt the derailer and the cassette, and will also result in a stronger wheel.

You should re-center the axle so that the protrusion is roughly equal on each end.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HillRider
I would not compress an Al frame to make the 130 mm hub fit.
Neither would I.

Sheldon "Yes And No" Brown

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Old 12-04-05, 01:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
You really should add all 5 mm to the left side, then re-dish. This will maintain the correct relationship betwixt the derailer and the cassette, and will also result in a stronger wheel. You should re-center the axle so that the protrusion is roughly equal on each end.
Absolutely correct if you want to do it exactly right but I didn't think a 2.5 mm change in the chainline would have a significant effect and would require more work (redishing) to prevent.

I expect by the time the OP gets finished playing around with his various crank and bb options the chainline won't be in the same place anyway.

Note to genericbikedude: All older Kleins are Al.
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Old 12-04-05, 03:18 PM   #16
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I've decided to relace my existing rim to a 135 mm MTB hub. This will make the aluminum frame happy AND give me some experience with wheelbuilding. Thanks to all who have contributed.
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