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  1. #1
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Max Tooth Difference Capasity on Shimano 105 R. Derailleurs

    Google isn't supplying anything useful so thought I'd pop the question to those who may know from experience. I have a short cage Shimano 105 derailleur (happens to be an older 8speed model) that I'm putting on a bike I'll be building up this winter/spring. I'm trying to decide on my rear cassette gearing and want to know the max difference in teeth that the derailleur can take up slack for. Front crank is a 52/39 and wanting to put a 11-28 on the back (sissy gearing I know, you don't have to say it )

    Thanks!

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    cycles per second Gonzo Bob's Avatar
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    The spec is 29T but if you're careful, you can exceed that. I've run mine with a 33T difference (50x34 and 13-30 - I know, extremely sissy gearing ) without problems. Just set the chain as long as possible but still OK in the small-small and you will be fine.

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    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Gonzo - thanks for the info. 30t top on the back, wow, surprised that alone is working very well for you. I barely had any clearance on the 28t on my old freewheel with the same derailleur. I'll give the 11/28 a try. I'm more likely to end up in the small/small than the big/big in any case.

    Anyone else with experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Bob
    The spec is 29T but if you're careful, you can exceed that. I've run mine with a 33T difference (50x34 and 13-30 - I know, extremely sissy gearing ) without problems. Just set the chain as long as possible but still OK in the small-small and you will be fine.
    I've a 10-speed Ultegra. Where did you get that 13-30? Wonder if something like that would be compatible with my setup. And, how, pray tell, does one tell if one has a LONG CAGE, SHORT CAGE (Middle??? Cage) rear derailleur? Frankly, looking at mine, it appears like a rather long - looks like about 3.5 inches from pulley to pulley.

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    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    LONG CAGE: http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycl...=1136574236712

    SHORT CAGE: http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycl...=1136574275431

    Model numbers are the same except for GS designation for long, SS for the short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    I've a 10-speed Ultegra. Where did you get that 13-30? Wonder if something like that would be compatible with my setup. And, how, pray tell, does one tell if one has a LONG CAGE, SHORT CAGE (Middle??? Cage) rear derailleur? Frankly, looking at mine, it appears like a rather long - looks like about 3.5 inches from pulley to pulley.
    Shimano specs their ders conservatively enough that you generally can exceed the spec. It'd be rare that you'd find an Ultegra that wouldn't take a 30T. Depending on how your der is mounted, you might get lucky and fit a 32T on there.

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    Mine seems to be the 6600-GS


    Shimano 6600-GS

    Of course, their specs say a 27 tooth larger rear.

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    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Kahn - perhaps consider putting on a Shimano XT derailleur? Those can easily handle a 30-34t. I've run my older 105 Short Cage with a 28t and there was very little clearance between the cog and the derailleur wheels. Not sure if I'd go to a 30t myself, but Bob seems to have made it work. Of course - YMMV depending on the dropout and hanger design of your bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k
    Kahn - perhaps consider putting on a Shimano XT derailleur? Those can easily handle a 30-34t. I've run my older 105 Short Cage with a 28t and there was very little clearance between the cog and the derailleur wheels. Not sure if I'd go to a 30t myself, but Bob seems to have made it work. Of course - YMMV depending on the dropout and hanger design of your bike.
    I am quickly "ruining" everything this bike was designed for but then again, I'm redesigning it for me and my needs.

    I'd like to get it lower and a 30 probably would get me closer. What I appear to miss is the "wide" range of low angle hills I could do on the middle ring on my older custom road bike. I had a 32 on the back (and, yes, it was from an XT with an XT derailleur).

    I believe XT will not support the 10-speed and, if possible, would like to not throw too much money at it right now if the current RD would handle a 30tooth rear. Of course, I have to find out what/how to change/add/subtract sprockets in a reasonable fashion, again, if possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k
    Gonzo - thanks for the info. 30t top on the back, wow, surprised that alone is working very well for you. I barely had any clearance on the 28t on my old freewheel with the same derailleur. I'll give the 11/28 a try. I'm more likely to end up in the small/small than the big/big in any case.

    Anyone else with experience?
    Do you really need the 11? If you start with a 12 or 13 you can fill in a gap or two between some of the larger cogs. Maybe add a 16.

    Al

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k
    Google isn't supplying anything useful so thought I'd pop the question to those who may know from experience. I have a short cage Shimano 105 derailleur (happens to be an older 8speed model) that I'm putting on a bike I'll be building up this winter/spring. I'm trying to decide on my rear cassette gearing and want to know the max difference in teeth that the derailleur can take up slack for. Front crank is a 52/39 and wanting to put a 11-28 on the back (sissy gearing I know, you don't have to say it )
    That will work fine, see: http://sheldonbrown.com/capacity

    However, the 11 will be pretty useless since you have a 52 in front, assuming your bike has full-sized wheels.

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  12. #12
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Thanks Sheldon for confirming what I was fairly certain of.

    As far as the 52/11 combo being more or less useless - suppose it is. The problem it seems to be is finding a reasonable price on an 8speed cassette with the gearing I am after. The curse of the poor college student saving for a wedding strikes again!

    kahn - ah, if you're running 10s and wanting a 30t rear cog then I suppose its time to do some serious searching & googling for anyone else doing the same thing to see what solution they have come up with. I hear you not wanting to pour a lot of money into fitting the bike to your needs (see above). I picked up my 105 crank with the 52/39 on it a while back for another bike that eventually got a completely different group hung on it. Now I'm building up a nice 531 steel frame with the 8speed 105 group and looking at cassette options. When I did my last Metric Century I could tell I could have used just a slightly higher climbing gear so keeping the 28t would be nice, but the SRAM 5.0 (aka the 850 series I believe) cassette I was looking at had the 11t low on it. Back to the drawing board for the moment I guess and perhaps try to dig up a few more $$ somewhere.

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    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    Performance used to offer a 12-32 8-speed cassette. With a "mountain" rear derailler (long cage, and large max-tooth capacity) you could run this cassette.
    Check on eBay for cassettes, too.

  14. #14
    cycles per second Gonzo Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    I've a 10-speed Ultegra. Where did you get that 13-30? Wonder if something like that would be compatible with my setup.
    I made my 13-30 (which I used in CO last summer) by combining parts of a 13-23 (my normal road cassette for riding around home) and an 11-30 from my MTB. But it's 8-speed so it wouldn't work for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuda2k
    Thanks Sheldon for confirming what I was fairly certain of.

    As far as the 52/11 combo being more or less useless - suppose it is. The problem it seems to be is finding a reasonable price on an 8speed cassette with the gearing I am after.
    We offer a 13-30 8-speed cassette. You can find a link at:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...25#post2010525

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    We offer a 13-30 8-speed cassette. You can find a link at:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...25#post2010525

    Sheldon "Not Allowed To Give The Direct Link Here" Brown
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    Well, Sheldon, since you can't post a direct link where on

    Harris Cyclery

    or

    Sheldon Brown

    Would I find info on fixing/changing/altering my 10-Speed Ultegra to a 30 rear. I already have a 12-27 rear. I have looked around your site (about "spiders" and rivets and separate cogs) but am not sure if I just need a cog or cogs and can reuse a portion of the existing Shimano Cassette and drop the smallest or what.....

    Or does this seem like too much and should I private message? Although I do believe that there are others who can benefit from this discussion including the specifics in my and Cuda2k's case.

    And I really appreciate your help and attitude - that things can be done. Others occasionally comment that "no one needs ....." but they don't ride my hills and they don't have my KNEES!!! (G)

    (edit): I would not be doing the work myself - no tools or intimate knowledge of cassettes. It would be a local bike shop or a traveling "bike doc."

  17. #17
    cycles per second Gonzo Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    Would I find info on fixing/changing/altering my 10-Speed Ultegra to a 30 rear. I already have a 12-27 rear.
    I would not be hard to change a 12-27 to a 12-30. Get a loose 30T HyperGlide cog. I don't think they make a 10-speed 30T but it can be 8- or 9-speed since the cog thickness isn't that different. Take the 16T loose cog and its spacer out of the 12-27 cassette. Put the 30T cog on the freehub body (with the 1mm spacer first, if required). Put on the spacer from the 16T. Put on the rest of the 12-27 cassette (without the 16T).

    Edit: I just noticed that Sheldon has a page on this - http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#custom

    Edit2: I also just read that this method may not work for 10-speed because of the way the biggest cog fits onto the freehub. Looks like you are stuck with a 27T largest cog.
    Last edited by Gonzo Bob; 01-06-06 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Bob
    I would not be hard to change a 12-27 to a 12-30. Get a loose 30T HyperGlide cog. I don't think they make a 10-speed 30T but it can be 8- or 9-speed since the cog thickness isn't that different. Take the 16T loose cog and its spacer out of the 12-27 cassette. Put the 30T cog on the freehub body (with the 1mm spacer first, if required). Put on the spacer from the 16T. Put on the rest of the 12-27 cassette (without the 16T).

    Edit: I just noticed that Sheldon has a page on this - http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#custom

    Edit2: I also just read that this method may not work for 10-speed because of the way the biggest cog fits onto the freehub. Looks like you are stuck with a 27T largest cog.
    No, they do NOT make a 10-speed 30t. You make it sound so easy. Maybe I do need to be a bit more inclined to do more work on the bike myself but, so far, at least, the local bike shop has not been too put out by my acquiring ODD parts from 3rd party vendors. It is more their reaction to the unorthodox ideas and going beyond specs.

    AND I just noticed your EDIT. I was just looking at that same site and was not sure what was or was not possible. I thought it might be but ..... That's why I'm asking.

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    cycles per second Gonzo Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    You make it sound so easy.
    Well, it's really easy with 8-speed which is where I have the most experience. I do have a 9-speed bike but I've had no need to customize the gearing on that yet but it does get a bit more difficult since some cogs may be on carriers and those cannot be removed individually. It looks like it gets a bit more complicated with 10-speed and the way the biggest cog fits on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    Well, Sheldon,
    Would I find info on fixing/changing/altering my 10-Speed Ultegra to a 30 rear. I already have a 12-27 rear. I have looked around your site (about "spiders" and rivets and separate cogs) but am not sure if I just need a cog or cogs and can reuse a portion of the existing Shimano Cassette and drop the smallest or what.....
    This works fine in 9-speed, and is how we make my popular Century Special 13-30 9-speed cassette. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with 10-speed because the biggest sprocket of a 10-speed cassette needs a recess so that it can actually overhang the shoulder of the hub a skosh.

    If you want seriously low gearing, you can't yet do it with 10-speed.

    There is an IRD 12-28 cassette, that's as low as they go in back. You can go to a 24 in front if you have a triple crank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    If you want seriously low gearing, you can't yet do it with 10-speed.
    Can I read anything interesting into the "can't YET" phrasing? (G) Is Shimano or others got something interesting cooking?

    I will have go gear chart the 28 cassette and see what it buys me - not much.

    I already got a 26t from you for the front triple and it made life easier but not yet as easy as _I_ want it.

    But, again, THANKS much for the info.

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    Gone, but not forgotten Sheldon Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    Can I read anything interesting into the "can't YET" phrasing? (G) Is Shimano or others got something interesting cooking?
    But of course!

    I don't have any inside information on this, but I have a good memory.

    When the move from 6-speed to 7-speed occurred, for the first couple of years it was only in the so-called "road" parts and close ratio clusters.

    The same was true of the transition from 7-speed to 8-speed, and from 8-speed to 9-speed.

    I see no reason to expect this pattern to change.

    See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    But of course!

    I don't have any inside information on this, but I have a good memory.

    When the move from 6-speed to 7-speed occurred, for the first couple of years it was only in the so-called "road" parts and close ratio clusters.

    The same was true of the transition from 7-speed to 8-speed, and from 8-speed to 9-speed.

    I see no reason to expect this pattern to change.

    See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

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    Aha. I'm sure you've seen quite a bit in this ever evolving industry. Opinions (for what they're worth) are that the 10 speed chain (and therefore chainring/sprocket) would be a bit too weak for a mountain bike scenario but then again, most mountain bikes probably never see dirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahn
    Aha. I'm sure you've seen quite a bit in this ever evolving industry. Opinions (for what they're worth) are that the 10 speed chain (and therefore chainring/sprocket) would be a bit too weak for a mountain bike scenario but then again, most mountain bikes probably never see dirt.
    They said that when 7-speed came in, they said that when 8-speed came in, they said that when 9-speed came in...

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    meb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    But of course!

    I don't have any inside information on this, but I have a good memory.

    When the move from 6-speed to 7-speed occurred, for the first couple of years it was only in the so-called "road" parts and close ratio clusters.

    The same was true of the transition from 7-speed to 8-speed, and from 8-speed to 9-speed.

    I see no reason to expect this pattern to change.

    See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

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    Is this for some technological need to prove the new technology reason(s) or is there a marketting or excess inventory reason for this approach?

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