How fast are balloon tires?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 140
Bikes: homemade cyclocross, 2005 KHS Flite 100 frame + assorted parts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How fast are balloon tires?
I've heard good things about the Schwalbe Bib Apple and they seem like a smart idea. Are there other balloon tires out there that work well or are they generally slow and inefficient?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
What do you mean by "baloon tires"? The term normally means large cross section regular pneumatic tires like those that come on "cruiser" bikes and beach cruisers. They are large, heavy and use relatively low pressure but are otherwise convention tires. They also have relatively high rolling resistance compaired to thin high pressure road tires.
You question implies a different type. Do you mean one of the various foam filled or other non-air pressurized tire designs? So far none have worked well enough to be useful.
You question implies a different type. Do you mean one of the various foam filled or other non-air pressurized tire designs? So far none have worked well enough to be useful.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Queanbeyan, Australia.
Posts: 4,135
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3450 Post(s)
Liked 420 Times
in
289 Posts
The flexability of the tread has a big influence on how fast a tire will be and so this is where I guess they are getting some speed into the big tires such as the Big Apple from Schwable. Vredestein also do a tire called Perfect Moiree which is along very simmilar principles. I use cheap 1.75 inch slicks on my Mtn beater bike and they're deffinitely a lot faster than knobby tires. IRC Metro's are regarded as being pretty fast tires.
Regards, Anthony
Regards, Anthony
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 853
Bikes: 2003 KHS F20-Westwood folding & enough parts to make several more bikes...
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I was skeptical of the Big Apple tires but my local HPV crowd swears by them saying they're quite fast and add a lot of cushioning.
__________________
#5
Videre non videri
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 3,208
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
I'd love to run thicker tyres, but I want high pressures in them.
90 psi is minimum, but anything above 1.5", and you're down to 65 psi or less.
Why don't they make them for higher pressures?
Is it because they'd pull out of the bead seats?
Is it because the tension along the tyre's cross-sectional surface would be too great, making the tyre too heavy?
90 psi is minimum, but anything above 1.5", and you're down to 65 psi or less.
Why don't they make them for higher pressures?
Is it because they'd pull out of the bead seats?
Is it because the tension along the tyre's cross-sectional surface would be too great, making the tyre too heavy?
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 140
Bikes: homemade cyclocross, 2005 KHS Flite 100 frame + assorted parts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider
What do you mean by "balloon tires"?
#7
JRA...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: philly
Posts: 839
Bikes: trek 520 & 736, DeRosa Professional, Fuji Professional, Raleigh International 3-speed, Saronni (any info people?), Humber 3-speed, Raleigh Sports, Carlton Grand Prix coming soon!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
go into the jobst brandt yahoo archive and type in rolling resistance and tire pressure; there's some good reading.https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html. grant peterson of rivendell and jan heine of vintage bicycle quarterly both have some interesting things to say about larger volume/lower pressure tires as well. ceteris paribus, a larger volume tire will have less rolling resistance than a smaller volumer one, plus will arguably provide more cushioning. of course, things are rarely equal between the two, even in a high quality ATB slick. i don't ride mountain bikes, but i can say a nice skinwall MTB slick definitely seem to ride nicer on the road when i'm test riding a MTB bike. even on my road bikes, i generally prefer a 700X28 inflated to under 100 lbs. i keep up fine and they ride nicely. on the go-fastererer bike, it's 23s inflated higher.
#8
o.O
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Today, I tried my new wheels with 26x2.35 Big Apple tires.
They were much faster than 700x38 cross or 700x40 hybrid tires, and the ride was way way smoother. Around the same speed as 700x32 touring tires, but super cushiony. Definitely recommended.
They were much faster than 700x38 cross or 700x40 hybrid tires, and the ride was way way smoother. Around the same speed as 700x32 touring tires, but super cushiony. Definitely recommended.
#9
Senior Member
I got some Specialized 700x32C tire to replace the Continental 23C tires for winter. The 32C's are a little slower but the ride is super smooth. The steel frame sprung Brooks saddle and fat tires make for the smoothest ride I've ever had.
Tim
Tim
#10
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
I 've been running 26x 2.1 Continental town and country tires as my 26" city tire for years, arguably a fat 'balloon' tire, and find them pretty fast and cushy as all get out.
So, I pumped them up to 85 psi on Wednesday. Wanted to decrease the rolling resistance a little bit. I usually run them at about 65 psi. Rode on them at 85 psi, no problem.
Thursday, I get woken up out of a nap by a loud loud noise, a snap like a bullet. I think someone shot a gun off nearby, so go back to bed.
When I went to load up my mountain bike for some errands on Friday, i noticed the back tire was flat, and the source of the loud noise the other day - I'd put the inner tube right thru the sidewall with the increased tire pressure. The town and countries were at the end of their service life anyway...
So, I pumped them up to 85 psi on Wednesday. Wanted to decrease the rolling resistance a little bit. I usually run them at about 65 psi. Rode on them at 85 psi, no problem.
Thursday, I get woken up out of a nap by a loud loud noise, a snap like a bullet. I think someone shot a gun off nearby, so go back to bed.
When I went to load up my mountain bike for some errands on Friday, i noticed the back tire was flat, and the source of the loud noise the other day - I'd put the inner tube right thru the sidewall with the increased tire pressure. The town and countries were at the end of their service life anyway...
Last edited by Bekologist; 01-21-06 at 06:53 PM.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
...a larger volume tire will have less rolling resistance than a smaller volumer one......
#12
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Originally Posted by HillRider
This is true only at equal pressure. The problem is large tires won't accept the same pressure as small tires.
I've got a few different 700x37c tires from the SAME manufacturer, and the max reccomended pressures range from 76 to 100 psi. Same width tire, same maker, different model. So some identical diameter tires are designed for higher pressures than others, you've got to read the sidewalls.
Today I rode down and bought two Michelin Transworld city 559x47s (26x1.95) to replace the Town and Countrys. I've yet to see how the Michelins ride, but their max psi is at about 60psi. I'm not going to make the same mistake and pump them up to 85 like the T&C's!!
#13
JRA...
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: philly
Posts: 839
Bikes: trek 520 & 736, DeRosa Professional, Fuji Professional, Raleigh International 3-speed, Saronni (any info people?), Humber 3-speed, Raleigh Sports, Carlton Grand Prix coming soon!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by HillRider
This is true only at equal pressure. The problem is large tires won't accept the same pressure as small tires.
#14
Newbie
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Don't let me burst your balloon (tires)
I've recently been riding around on a balloon bike, so sat down and worked through some numbers and arguments. At the end of the day, you ride balloon tires because you like how they look. Higher pressure tires have smaller contact patches, and comfort can be dealt with better with frame and fork design than space-hopper tires. Balloon tires need low pressures to achieve those much lauded cushioning benefits, but that can leave you with as much as 6 square inches of rubber massaging the road, slowing you down. Makers like Schwalbe mitigate against this with soft compound rubbers, but play down the drawbacks of their approach, namely more punctures, and tires wearing out quickly. I've written a full article on my blog: https://behoovingmoving.livejournal.com/66499.html
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,083
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3376 Post(s)
Liked 5,518 Times
in
2,860 Posts
After I broke the *second* Mavic rim, I came to the realization that just because the tire could take 70psi, didn't mean the rim could take it.
#16
Certified Bike Brat
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 4,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
There`s `FAST` and then theres `fast`.
I hear `rolling resistance` and `fast bikes` talked about it a lot and to be honest - my opion is that most of those conversations are more hypothetical than practical.
Me? I happen to live in Montreal, a city that is probably home to more bikes than exist in all the rest of canada combined. And Montreal has an ubelievably well developed system of bicycle paths that run alongside the river, as well as city streets that present some moderately steep climbs up Mont Royal in the centre of the city. So there are headwinds, tailwinds, construction zones, traffic and speed limits to contend with. In my opinion thats a pretty PRACTICAL testing ground for tires.
And since I am involved in the bicycle industry, I`ve had ample opportunity to road test a number of tires - some of them quite extensively.
Currently I have 700 x 23c tires mounted on a chromoly road bike. Is it `fast`? It depends.The speed limits tend to keep me in check so even if they`re faster - top speed isn`t a major priority.
There is something else related to rolling resistance that no-one seems to talk about though. Breaking power. And on that road bike I doubt I could stop on a dime even if my life depende on it. The contact patch is too small. The tire pressure is too high. In an emergency stop the tires will end up sliding because there isn`t enough adhesion.
And then there`s the ride. Harsh because 130psi and a small tire footprint transmits EVERYTHING to the rider. Racing bikes work best on indoor track or smooth asphalt. The construction zones and road conditions tend to make me keep my speed well in check on a road bike.
OK, but I also have a hybrid that runs 700 x 33c tires in the summer and 700 x 40c studded tires in the winter. Again, theres lots of talk about increased rolling resistance with studded tires. The stories are greatly exaggerated. The primary source of resistance is the snow. When the roads are clear there is no problem breaking the speed limits in the area. and if the tires have more `rolling resistance`, I guess my ski jacket and Srel boots aren`t as areodynamic as spandex either. I should mention that the ride is a lot nicer than the road bike. It also stops in a much shorter distance.
And last summer I did have a chance to run around with a titanium framed mtb with 30 gears, a front suspension system and 2.3 inch tires. In spite of the weight of the disk brakes and the knobby tires - the bike was still fun to drive and got me everywhere I wanted to go. It was really just the road noise that bugged me. That and running out of tread in corners on asphault.
So I threw some 2.3in BMX tires on it just for fun and ....... it turned out to be a lot of fun! Have 65psi in the tires and can push the bike to almost 50kph. Road noise is almost nonexistant and braking is amazing!
And since I can`t get these in a 700 size, I`ll be buying some 2in 700c Big Apples myself this summer to put on the hybrid. The road bike may be faster, but it spends most of its time hanging on the wall because its just not as much fun to drive.
#18
Senior Member
"How fast are balloon tires?"
Depends...are they mounted on a moving bicycle...or are they leaning against the wall of the garage?
if the latter, then they are not very fast at all.
-j
Depends...are they mounted on a moving bicycle...or are they leaning against the wall of the garage?
if the latter, then they are not very fast at all.
-j
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Big Apples are different to older cruiser-type balloon tyres. They use thin, flexy sidewalls, the same as modern high-performance tyres. They can be pumped to about 70-80 psi. The result is a tyre that has fairly low rolling resistance.
Is it fast?
In my experience, it is very efficient at cruising speed BUT it is not good for high-speed racebike type performance. Big Apples still have a lot of aerodynamic drag which counts at high speed, and they are heavier than racebike tyres.
It works very well over rough ground and cobbles allowing higher speed than 700cx32.
If you want an everyday tyre for getting around town, have some bits of rough road or track, want a comfortable ride and like to cruise at an efficient pace then Big Apple is great.
I have used the 1.9" version for a couple of years.
Is it fast?
In my experience, it is very efficient at cruising speed BUT it is not good for high-speed racebike type performance. Big Apples still have a lot of aerodynamic drag which counts at high speed, and they are heavier than racebike tyres.
It works very well over rough ground and cobbles allowing higher speed than 700cx32.
If you want an everyday tyre for getting around town, have some bits of rough road or track, want a comfortable ride and like to cruise at an efficient pace then Big Apple is great.
I have used the 1.9" version for a couple of years.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times
in
364 Posts
I'd love to run thicker tyres, but I want high pressures in them.
90 psi is minimum, but anything above 1.5", and you're down to 65 psi or less.
Why don't they make them for higher pressures?
Is it because they'd pull out of the bead seats?
Is it because the tension along the tyre's cross-sectional surface would be too great, making the tyre too heavy?
90 psi is minimum, but anything above 1.5", and you're down to 65 psi or less.
Why don't they make them for higher pressures?
Is it because they'd pull out of the bead seats?
Is it because the tension along the tyre's cross-sectional surface would be too great, making the tyre too heavy?
On the other hand, assuming everything else is equal, a fat tire will deform less front-to-back, at the contact patch. The practical result is that you need less air pressure with a fatter tire to equal the rolling resistance of a skinnier tire with more air pressure.
I think that a lot of people focus on the wrong end of the tire width/rolling resistance equation. The advantage of a wider tire isn't lower rolling resistance at equal air pressure, it's equal rolling resistance at lower air pressure.
Last edited by Retro Grouch; 02-21-11 at 09:00 AM.
#21
Classics lover
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posts: 15
Bikes: early 90's Bianchi Trofeo, others
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
From memory 375*Hp=.0023*V^3*A+V*R Where Hp is horsepower V is speed in miles per hour A is area in square feet and R is rolling resistance in pounds. Rolling resistance runs from .002 for track tires to .01 for the heaviest balloon tires. Fred Delong's guide to bicycling and bicycles published rolling resistance as a function of inflation pressure. It turns out rolling resistance hurts you the most at 10 mph a 2 inch tire compared to a 1.5 inch tire will slow you down about 1 mph. As a practical matter I have found 1.5 inch tires last the longest. Tires larger than this fail by ripping at the bead.
#23
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26424 Post(s)
Liked 10,380 Times
in
7,208 Posts
wider and more practical widths for bombing
around the urban environment.
I'm always bragging to people about the 26x1.5
Marathons i have on the Retro Raleigh Post
Apocalyptic Transportation Module.
They can be very, very, and I mean
colorful language, tool throwing difficult
to mount on certain rims. The upside
is you can carry higher pressures.
Mike Larmer
__________________
Last edited by 3alarmer; 02-21-11 at 05:45 PM. Reason: typo
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 9,083
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3376 Post(s)
Liked 5,518 Times
in
2,860 Posts
Fortunately, I was just a mile from home on the return trip when I started feeling the thumping of the bulge forming as the cords started ripping.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 50 Times
in
25 Posts
I have run several different tires on my LWB recumbent in an effort to find cushioning that would eliminate harmonic vibration coming from the pavement surface (washboarded slurry seal). It drives the nerves in my hands wild. The Big Apples did a fair job of cushioning at lower pressures but would be slow. At higher pressures, good speed but little cushioning. Then I went to Schwalbe marathons (20x1.75 & 26x1.75). Good speed but not much cushioning at all. They were too stiff, with 4 plies in the sidewalls. Next were Schwalbe Marathon Racers (20x1.5 & 26 x 1.5). These are 2 ply tires and the plies are thinner that those in the Marathons. These are much faster tires and have very good cushioning, even at close to max pressure. The key is the softer sidewalls. I'm running 65psi on the front, and 75 on the rear. Both tires call for an 80 psi max. bk