Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    30 speed shifting problem - Is this credible?

    A couple months ago I bought a 2005 Lemond Buenos Aires. It has the following specs - Front Derr, rear cassette & shifters: Campy Veloce 10, Rear Derr: Campy Centaur 10, chain: Campy 10, Cranks: Bontrager Racelite Pipe 52/42/30, BB Truvativ GXP Pipe.

    A few miles after I began riding it I noticed that if I'm in the middle chainring and the 1-2-3 smallest rear cogs, the chain kind of slips between the middle and large chainring, so I end up pedaling air. I don't have a problem on the big chainring, as I can run all 10 rear cogs (not that I normally do that), and I don't have a problem on the granny chainring either. After about 100 miles I took it to the bike shop (Hudson Trails), and the mechanic said they've seen problems with this crankset, and the changed either the crankset, or the middle chainring (I am not sure). So I got back on the bike, but the problem is still there. I now have about 180 miles on the bike, and I'm getting ready to take it back to HTO.

    Before going back I wanted to get some insight/advice so I could discuss the problem with the mechanic, so I called Lemond Bikes. This is what Josh at Lemond said: The tolerances on these 30 speed bikes is so tight that this is a common problem. The chain is thin and brand new cranks have sharp teeth, so when there is cross chaining, the chain won't stay on the ring and gets thrown off caught in between. The solution is to avoid this gear combination. As a matter of fact, with 30 speeds I should only run the middle chainring with cogs 4-7 or so, the large ring with cogs 1-5 and the small ring with cogs 6-10. After 600 miles or so, the teeth in the cranks will wear down a little and then all the problem will go away. He suggested that I could also try lightly filing down the teeth in the chainring to accelerate the process. He said this is a problem with all 30 speed drivetrains, whether it's shimano, campy, or any combination.

    This sounds like a bunch of hoey to me. I know what cross chaining is, and I don't consider middle ring and 3rd smalles cog as crosschaining. I'd appreciate any advice the forum gurus, or anyone else with similar problems, can give me on which direction to go. Is it true that 30 speeds have this inherent problem? Is there a more credible explanation to the shifting problem?

  2. #2
    The Improbable Bulk Little Darwin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Wilkes-Barre, PA
    My Bikes
    Many
    Posts
    7,286
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I haven't ridden anything over 24 speeds yet, but I never consider the number of speeds to indicate the usable number of gears whether a 10 speed or 30 speed.

    In my opinion, the explanation you received is reasonable guidance for usage, but misses the point as far as equipment issues.

    Even though I do tend to stick to the type of gear selections that the technician suggested, I do think that all combinations should work, even if degraded by poor chain line.

    On my 24 speed comfort bike, I very rarely use the smallest chain ring with the smallest few sprockets on the rear (nor the large/large combos). However from my middle chain ring (which is where I spend most of my time) I do occasionally hit the smallest and largest rear cogs.

    What the technician gave you as guidance is valid instruction on how you should be using the gearing, however the gears should not disengage at any point, as this is (in my opinion) a safety issue. What would the result be if you were standing and mashing up a hill when the chain disengaged????
    Slow Ride Cyclists of NEPA

    People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character.
    - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #3
    ppc
    ppc is offline
    Senile Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    506
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    I haven't ridden anything over 24 speeds yet, but I never consider the number of speeds to indicate the usable number of gears whether a 10 speed or 30 speed.
    The actual number of usable gears you get out of a 30 speed drivetrain with a regular (i.e. non-recumbent) bike is 15 gears, or less if you're anal about chainline.

    Thing is, I reckon 24 speed is ideal: just enough to always find the cadence sweet spot, yet not too narrow a chain and sprockets, so that the chain lasts reasonably long and the drivetrain isn't a PITA to adjust. I'm not too happy with my latest 27 speed bike, the 9-speed cluster brings nothing of value to me, and it's more finicky to maintain in perfect working order. But finding the shifters I want in 8-speed is impossible, so I live with it. As for 10 speeds, well, over my dead body...

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Dgregory - I agree that it's a safety issue. There have been a couple of times I almost lost it. It is also a performance issue because instead of thinking about making it up that hill I'm worried about which gear I'm going into. I have some more information. After I posted this I called Campagnolo and explained the situation to the guy there. He said this should not be happening, and if the bike is setup correctly and the parts are not defective, I should be able to use all 30 combinations without any problems. He said that if this was normal, 30 speeds would not still be in the market. That is my same though, and that is why I thought the Lemond guy's answer was questionable at best. Anyone else with input? I'm heading out to the bike shop in a couple of minutes.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with you on the usable gears issue. But I still find it hard to believe that middle ring and 3rd cog is so out of line that it shouldn't work. I also agree with you about the number of gears. I was happy with 12 in the early 80's, happy with 21 in the early nineties. Late 90's brought me 24 which was much more finicky. I never had a 27, and I bought this 30 because that's what's on the market. However, when I pay close to 2k for a bike, I expect it will work reasonably well. I'm hoping this doesn't turn into one of those nighmares involving multiple visits to the LBS, spending lots of money on new components, and quickly getting sick and tired of the new bike, and hoping I'd never bought it.

  6. #6
    ppc
    ppc is offline
    Senile Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    506
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabrales
    I agree with you on the usable gears issue. But I still find it hard to believe that middle ring and 3rd cog is so out of line that it shouldn't work.
    Indeed, you should be able to hit them all safely even if some of them are rough. The guy tried to feed you BS, that's for sure.

  7. #7
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    5,434
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sounds like this is ultimately a chainline issue. You might explore the possibility of moving the crankset in by a mm, if possible to see if it corrects the problem. Or try a different brand of crankset altogether.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Oklahoma
    My Bikes
    Trek 5500, Colnago C-50
    Posts
    9,079
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've seen this problem. I can think of four possible ways to improve or cure the problem.

    On another forum a rider was describing a similar problem with a Bontrager double crank. The dealer said that Bontrager was aware of the problem and would replace the chainrings.

    Or- try a bottom bracket spacer, they come in 1, 1.5, and 2mm thicknesses. Try a 2 mm, it goes between the bottom bracket and the frame and will move your entire crankset outward 2 mm.

    Look at the tips of the teeth on the middle ring. If they are thick you can try filing the inside (frameside) of the tips. This will help the chain drop over the teeth. I had to do this to my wife's middle ring (TA Alize).

    Or- replace the crankset and bottom bracket with a Campy.

    You should be able to hit all 10 rear cogs from the middle ring, although a straighter chainline would be better.

    Al

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks Al. I didn't get a chance to take the bike to the mechanic today, and I probably won't be able to do it until Monday. I'm planning a couple 25-35 mile rides this weekend, so I'll see how it goes. I'll also get in touch with Bontrager and see what they have to say. I have thought about buying the campy front crank, and I may just end up doing that. However, it really irks me to pay close to 2k for anything, and then have to turn around and spend another couple hundred bucks just to get it to work as it should have from the beginning. Anyone has a phone number for Bontrager?

  10. #10
    Very Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Yarramalong
    Posts
    208
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabrales
    He said this is a problem with all 30 speed drivetrains, whether it's shimano, campy, or any combination.
    He is wrong.

    I have a 30 speed setup......

    o Shimano 105 12-27 10 speed cassette
    o Shimano Ultegra 10s chain
    o Shimano Deore RD
    o Suntour BL FD (circa 1983)
    o Sugino TGT crankset (circa 1984)
    o The cheapest chainrings I could find 47t/34t/24t, no ramps or pegs or whatever those things are.

    I have NO problems using all ten cogs in either the middle or large chainring, they are all silent and I use them ALL regularly. I only use the 4 or 5 largest cogs when in the 24t chainring.

    Yes, I do regularly use the 47t front and 27t rear combo... it works fine and it's silent.

    No comments about crosschaining please.

    Phil.
    Last edited by miyata610; 04-27-06 at 11:47 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,616
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Depending on the geometry of your bike, cross-chaining can be a bigger problem for some than for others.

    A good rule of thumb is that cross-chaining is to be avoided, regardless of whether it seems to be causing problems or not, because it is ultimately bad for your drivetrain, especially the chain.

    As for "filing down the chainring teeth"....WTF???????

    Bob

  12. #12
    fmw
    fmw is offline
    Hoosier Pedaler fmw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,432
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There is nothing inherent like that in a triple. Period. I'm a veteran user of several Campy triples so I speak from experience. I don't know why people in LBS's insist on making things up to make themselves or their bikes look better. I think the problem is in the crankset itself or in the chain. The Campy front shifters provide all kinds of adjustment in use so indexing can't be the problem. Something other than the derailleur is trying to move the chain from the middle ring. Either the chainrings are too close, at least on one side, or the chain is too thick or incompatible with the chain rings. If you have Campy compatible chain rings spaced properly and a Campy chain then I can't see how this problem could occur.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Okanagan Valley, BC CANADA
    My Bikes
    Trek 7300FX, Lemond Sarthe
    Posts
    1,049
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The width of the Shimano chain is narrower than the Campy so would you expect to see this problem as least as frequently with Shimano? I have full Ultegra 10 and have not needed a "Break in" period and it otherwise works fine.

    Should this Bontrager crank be used with the Campy 10-speed? Trek/Lemond supplies an identical sounding crank with the Shimano groupo, maybe the chain line is different.
    2006 Lemond Sarthe
    2000 Trek 7500FX

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I talked to Bontrager yesterday. They said this should not be happening. So now I've talked to Campy, Bontrager, and Lemond, and the Lemond dude was the only one to suggest this is normal. Bontrager gave me a name and phone number and told me to take the bike back to the shop, and have the mechanic call them. I'll take it in on Monday and then I'll post the outcome.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bobby Lex - My sentiments exactly. When the guy told me to file the teeth I wanted to say, "are you nuts!". I'm not saying that filing won't help, I don't know, I just couldn't believe that his answer to a consumer's question was, "get a file and go to town on your bike". Based on his response I had two thoughs: 1) Once I take the file to the chainrings they'll tell me the warranty is void; and 2) They want me to wait 600-800 miles on the hope that by the time I get there the bike will not longer be under warranty. I just hope this was some ignoramus customer rep at Lemond/Trek, and not an example of how that company does business.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    54
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm back. Well, I took it to a different bike shop and explained the problem. The guy there immediately said "that's because you are using a Bonrager Crank that doesn't work well with the Bontrager crank". He then picked up the phone and called LeMond (if you read my past posts a Lemond cust rep told me it was normal), and after a 30 second conversation hangs up the phone and says "we'll be getting you campagnolo cranks and bb. That was last Thursday. The parts should be here today or tomorrow. I'll let you all know if the new parts fix the problem. I have a feeling they will.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    203
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    as far as i knew, 10 speed chains are only supposed to be used on double's, tripples are pretty much all designed for 7/8/9 speeds, unless your current crank set specifially stated its suitable for 10 speed systems...

  18. #18
    B.C. to D.C.
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    between the Popeye's, the liquor store, the funeral home, and the strip club
    My Bikes
    1992 Miyata Nine 14; 1971 Raleigh Super Course fixie conversion; 2006 Jamis Nova (853 version); 2001 Diamondback Topanga (SS conversion); 1956 Rudge Sports; 1971 Raleigh Competition (processing); 199? Schwinn World Sport (processing)
    Posts
    576
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I had this problem on a compact double 50/36, running truvativ cranks/rings and shimano 105 derrs and cassette--the chain falling "in between" the rings (and also coming off the outside)

    turns out the rings truvativ advertised as 9/10 spd compatible were in fact only really designed for 9-spd. got the 10-spd specific rings and it works fine now.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,721
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Try this:

    Campy fans are tiresomely quick to point out that Campy shifters have a plethora of front shift positions. When you're using your middle ring and any of the larger rear cogs, try moving the front shifter a click or two to keep the front derailleur centered over the chain. My bet is that will solve your problem.

    The Shimano set up on my tandem will access all 9 rear cogs from the middle chainring with no chain rubbing on the derailleur and none of the goofy stuff that you were talking about. I can't imagine that Shimano is that much better than Campy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •