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  1. #1
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    Park TS-2 help..

    I started to true with my new TS-2. Was wondering if it is bad to have the metal guides hitting the rim while you test for lateral true-ness. Thinking the tips will wear down from friction and the guides will not eventually become in-acurate.

    Also, after reading the included brochure and their web-site guide, I still do not know where to set the guide for radial truing. Do you narrow the pointers just under the rim? Also the right guide seems to be lower. Should the both be against the top of the rim?

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    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    The guides are steel, and are not going to wear down appreciably from hitting the rim. They shouldn't be touching the rim the whole way around the wheel, of course - only at the points where the rim is out of true.
    The TS-2 is not a self-dishing stand, either (unless it's been updated since I used in in a shop), so even if one side did buff down a bit (which again, is not going to happen from intermittent contact with aluminum rims), it wouldn't matter.

    On vertical/radial truing - I narrow the pointers just under the rim. If the right guide is lower, it's possible your wheel is out of dish. But also possible it's not built perfectly. But doesn't matter - the right and left sidewalls of the rim should be equal height, so you actually only need one of the guides to bump up against the rim for radial truing.

  3. #3
    Curmudgeon Wil Davis's Avatar
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    I've never used the TS-2 but I have a Minoura truing stand and use the guides lightly touching the rim to indicate how close they are to the rim (sounds obvious, but it seems that your question begs such an answer - I apologise if that sounds flippant…).

    Lateral truing is done by bringing the side guides (2, one on each side) close enough to touch the rim at the spots where the rim needs truing.

    The guide for radial-trueness (1) is brought close enough so that it touches the rim. There is no absolute position for the guides - but as the wheel becomes true the guides can be brought ever closer to the rim, so that they're not quite touching it, but are very very close.

    With care, patience and skill, the wheel can be trued to the point at which the guides are within a fraction of a millimetre of the rim, without actually touching it - when they touch the rim you will hear it.

    As I said before, there is no absolute position of the guides, everything is relative. The rim is centred by either using a dishing-tool (easy to make you own), or by reversing the wheel in the stand, and centering it relative to the guides.

    This has turned out longer than expected, but I hope it helps -

    - Wil
    "………………………" - Marcel Marceau

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    My TS2 has a notch in both sides of the caliper (guides). Radial truing can be done by lowering the caliper arm and closing the caliper until the rim fits inside the notch on both sides. As timcupery said, rim centering is not automatic, reversing the wheel on the stand is the best way to confirm that the rim is centered. The caliper arm can be adjusted side to side. I've adjusted mine so that the calipers are centered for 130mm wheels (rear road). After truing radially and laterally I reverse the wheel on the stand to confirm dish. When centering the front rim I set all spokes at the same tension while simultaneiously truing radially. Then I true laterally and reverse the wheel on the stand to confirm dish. Actually I do these steps in several iterations as needed.
    Wheel truing is mostly common horse sense.

    Al

  5. #5
    Hardtail WorldWind's Avatar
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    Horse sense, perhaps. Provided your horse understands the concept that tightening spokes increases tension but to move a section of the rim you loosen the opposite pulling spoke.

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    OK...I believe I got the wheel pretty true. Then I flipped the wheel around and now I am getting rubbing.
    Confused. Shouldn't the clearence be the same? I am afraid to correct and put it out of true on the first side...

  7. #7
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    when truing a wheel on our TS-2, inevitably only one of the guides will line up, with the other several mm further away. The guides aren't really great for establishing dish, as the spring-loaded mechanism that brings them together isn't very accurate side-to-side, IMO. I just use the one guide to establish lateral true and check with the dishing tool. For radial truing, I just bring both guides all the way together and bring them close to the rim.

  8. #8
    Hardtail WorldWind's Avatar
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    Is it a front or a rear wheel?

    To one side caliper, it should be the same for a front, but different for a rear, because of the dish.

    For a rear set the caliper width to the depth of your cassette dish plus the rim width and then when you flip the wheel use the other side caliper.

    Keep in mind that a rims cross section can vary in width at different points around it’s circumference by a small amount.
    Last edited by WorldWind; 05-01-06 at 01:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    OK...I believe I got the wheel pretty true. Then I flipped the wheel around and now I am getting rubbing.
    Confused. Shouldn't the clearence be the same? I am afraid to correct and put it out of true on the first side...
    After flipping the wheel over if the wheel rubs on the same side of the caliper it means the caliper arm is off-center. If it rubs on the other caliper arm it means the rim is off-center (out of dish).
    If you have a 130mm spaced wheel (rear road) that is perfectly dished it is possible to adjust the caliper arm so that it will center all other 130mm spaced wheels. This is because the TS2 uprights are perpendicular to the wheel's axle when spaced 130mm. For other spacings, like front wheels, the uprights are not perpendicular to the axle, not flush with the lock nuts, and because the lock nuts have various sizes and shapes the uprights do not hold the wheel in consistent positions relative to the caliper arm.

    Al
    Last edited by Al1943; 05-01-06 at 10:11 PM.

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    I am doing the front wheel. I am confused by "Dish". If the wheel is laterally true, doesn't that mean that it is centered. If not wouldn't it be hitting the calipers? So basically, a wheel can be lateral and radial true but not really perfect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    I am doing the front wheel. I am confused by "Dish". So basically, a wheel can be lateral and radial true but not really perfect?
    Yes. You can have a wheel "true" but with an off-centered rim. The fact that one side of the caliper touches the wheel probably means that the caliper arm is off-centered with respect to that particular wheel. Reversing the wheel on the rim will confirm that, as explained above. Or you can check both sides of the wheel with a dishing tool. With a TS2 and a little practice you can center a rim without a dishing tool. For a front wheel I use a tensiometer to set all of the spokes at exactly the same tension while simultaneously truing radially, then I gradually true laterally and reverse the wheel on the stand as many times as needed to confirm that the rim is centered.

    A multi-speed rear wheel has off-centered spokes at the hub but the rim should be centered between the dropouts, chainstays, and seat stays. Typically the non-driveside rear spokes will have only 2/3rds as much tension as the rear driveside spokes, and the front spokes will all be equal but more than the rear non-driveside and less than the rear driveside.

    Al
    Last edited by Al1943; 05-01-06 at 10:10 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWind
    Is it a front or a rear wheel?

    To one side caliper, it should be the same for a front, but different for a rear, because of the dish.

    For a rear set the caliper width to the depth of your cassette dish plus the rim width and then when you flip the wheel use the other side caliper.

    Keep in mind that a rims cross section can vary in width at different points around it’s circumference by a small amount.
    A rim should be centered between the dropouts, chainstays, and seatstays. Makes no difference if the wheel is a front or a rear. On a rear wheel the hub flanges are asymetrical to make room for the cogset, but the rim is centered.

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    Man..this is getting more and more complicated. So many variables..Now if I start to bring the wheel more to the other side, the lateral and radial true will probably get all messed up. How do you keep it dished when doing the other adjustments???

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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    I started to true with my new TS-2. Was wondering if it is bad to have the metal guides hitting the rim while you test for lateral true-ness. Thinking the tips will wear down from friction and the guides will not eventually become in-acurate.

    Also, after reading the included brochure and their web-site guide, I still do not know where to set the guide for radial truing. Do you narrow the pointers just under the rim? Also the right guide seems to be lower. Should the both be against the top of the rim?
    You would have to true a thousand wheels before wearing down the caliper tips enough to make a difference. But if you did, the calipers are replaceable. Contact the Parktool folks.

    As for all your dishing questions, the 3 best sources I've used for building and truing wheels, are these:

    1. Sheldon Brown: my wheelbuilding "bible". Have printed out his directions and placed them in a binder on my workbench.

    2. Barnett's Manual: a backup to Sheldon.

    3. Jobst Brandt's Book: does a great job explaining the theory and physics of wheelbuilds and use of various materials.

    These resources will answer all your questions regarding wheelbuilding, and many questions you never knew to ask.

    One last comment, regarding dish, because it sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "dish" is. Proper "dish" means that with the axle exactly centered in the hub, the hub must be exactly centered in the rim. That means that a straight line running across the diameter of the rim will bisect the hub exactly at its center. You can have a perfect wheel radially and laterally, but the hub can be a little or a lot off center, which would require adjusting appropriate spoke tension to center the hub.

    Bob

  15. #15
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    Look, there are three different variables to truing a wheel. (Well, actually four, but only three that your truing stand can show you.)
    1. Radial true - is the rim round?
    2. Dish - is the rim directly in line with the hub's centerline?
    3. Lateral true - does the rim not vary from side-to-side as it spins?
    4. Tension - is spoke tension a) relatively equal between various spokes, and b) at proper level to be as tight as possible without risking a taco'd wheel or cracked rim?

    It sounds like dish is your main issue. As I noted above, the Park TS-2 is not a self-dishing truing stand. Meaning, the calipers may be slightly off to one side or the other, so you get lateral true, but the rim ain't in perfect line with the centerline of the hub. The solution to this is either
    a) buy a dishing tool
    b) flip the wheel in the stand every now and then, which is an effective way of figuring out if it's dished too far to one side or the other.

    For tension, you can buy a tensionmeter, or learn to go by the tone of the spokes when you pluck them. At the very least, for getting tension equal, you can pluck the spokes all around the wheel, one side at a time, and if adjacent spokes has one much higher tension than the next, loosen the tighter one and tighten the looser one by the same amount (usually 1/4 or 1/8 turns at a time, is how I do it).

    Also, as noted, most rear wheels have the spokes shorter and higher-tension on the drive side. Often referred to as "dish" of the rear wheel. Now, the rear rim is still directly in line with the centerline of the hub. It's just that the hub's drive-side flange has been moved inward to make room for more gears. Anyway, when maxing out spoke tension on a typical rear wheel, only max out the drive-side. But you still want the non-drive-side spokes to have consistent (albeit lower) tension.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    Man..this is getting more and more complicated. So many variables..Now if I start to bring the wheel more to the other side, the lateral and radial true will probably get all messed up. How do you keep it dished when doing the other adjustments???
    Yes there are a lot of variables, but that's what wheel building is about. I find it easier to get it right if I concentrate on radial true and even tension (per side for the rear) during the early stages of the process. Then gradually work on getting the rim centered (dishing) while maintaining the radial true. Worry about lateral truing last, that's the easy part. Of course you have to consider all variables at all times but you really need to concentrate on radial truing first. The worst that you could do would be to build a wheel with even tension and laterally true only to find that it is out-of-round.
    With a little patience and practice it will all become easier and you'll be able to fix any wheel problems.

    Al
    Last edited by Al1943; 05-02-06 at 09:43 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member toolboy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=timcupery] As I noted above, the Park TS-2 is not a self-dishing truing stand.

    IMHO the Park TS2 does a very good job of centering a wheel in the stand providing that it is set up correctly and maintained. I invested in the Park centering gauge (PA 1554-1) when I purchased my stand and have not been sorry. Actually, I regularly lend it to one local shop to set up their vintage TS2. As mentioned, a perfectly dished wheel will also work as a gauge. Making sure that the spring loaded collars on the main shaft are snugged up to the uprights is the key. Use a small shim to allow for easy turning of the main shaft knob. Park makes an upgrade kit which includes thrust bearings to replace the old collar and shim setup for the main shaft. I have compared the dish set by the TS2 to the readings from my dishing tool and they are quite close enough for me.

  18. #18
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    Yeah, toolboy - the TS-2 can be pretty good at centering the wheel, but it ain't perfect (and, more specifically, ain't designed to be perfect on this count) so you may as well flip the wheel around every so often when truing to make sure you've got the dishing right. It's not like flipping the wheel is much work.

  19. #19
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    As an alternative to the tensiometer see http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm for checking tension by tone.

    Leland Yee

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    OK..now I am getting pissed...I spent several hours/days getting the wheel to what seems to be laterally/radial/dish true. Following all your advice, etc. So I put the tube, tire back on the rim. I spun the wheel and tire has the same issue as before...does not seem round, dips in in a certain spot, very noticeably. Could it be something else besides the rim? Tire, inflation, etc?

  21. #21
    Curmudgeon Wil Davis's Avatar
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    Things to check:

    1) tyre is seated correctly on the rim
    2) tube isn't twisted, or caught between the bead and the rim, or isn't too big for the tyre
    3) rim-tape is located correctly in the centre of the rim, and covers the nipples, and isn't displaced to the edge of the rim, causing the bead of the tyre to ride higher on the rim

    Sometimes what you describe can be fixed by inflating the tyre to a higher than normal pressure, which helps the beads to sit correctly on the rim, after which the tyre is deflated to the correct pressure.

    - Wil
    "………………………" - Marcel Marceau

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    OK..now I am getting pissed...
    Why? I'll bet you know a lot more about bicycle wheels now than before. Riding out on home built wheels can be one of the most satisfying experiences on a bicycle.

    What kind of tire is it? You may well have a defective tire. I had one recently with a big knot in the casing that wasn't apparent until it had a few hundred miles on it.

    Al

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    Tires are brand new Conti City Contact. I have the same "non-round" issue with the back tire. I am fixing up a MTB I have had since 1990, in attempt to use a bike to go places when I do not want to use my road bike (read: do not want RB stolen). Bike was never really taken care of, but ridden seldom. Last time I road the bike was about 3 years ago, and I do not remember the tires been this out of wack when I rode it. Rims were never abused enough to be dented IMO. I guess I could put the old tires on and see if I have the same problem. Seems unlikely 2 new tires are defective. Also, there might be a human or mechanical issue still with the truing stand use...(the stand is right out of the box).

    I have had a series of project innitiations lately (like fixing the lawnmower engine) that have led to the "it would have been easier to bring to a professional shop..." lingering thoughts..However.. I am determined to get to the bottom of this on my own....

  24. #24
    Hardtail WorldWind's Avatar
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    are your new tires sized properly for your rims?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by spgny
    Tires are brand new Conti City Contact. I have the same "non-round" issue with the back tire. I am fixing up a MTB I have had since 1990, in attempt to use a bike to go places when I do not want to use my road bike (read: do not want RB stolen). Bike was never really taken care of, but ridden seldom. Last time I road the bike was about 3 years ago, and I do not remember the tires been this out of wack when I rode it. Rims were never abused enough to be dented IMO. I guess I could put the old tires on and see if I have the same problem. Seems unlikely 2 new tires are defective. Also, there might be a human or mechanical issue still with the truing stand use...(the stand is right out of the box).

    I have had a series of project innitiations lately (like fixing the lawnmower engine) that have led to the "it would have been easier to bring to a professional shop..." lingering thoughts..However.. I am determined to get to the bottom of this on my own....
    I agree that you can probably figure it out. I've done my own lawnmower repairs for 55 years, but my 15 year old Snapper finally got the best of me and I hauled it to the landfill. Keep us informed as to how you solve your bike problem.

    Al

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