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Old 06-14-06, 02:36 PM   #1
biker7
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Calling Campy Bottom Bracket Experts....(m)

Guys,
Am currently running a Campy Veloce 115.5mm bottom bracket on my bike and am considering upgrading it shortly. BTW it has performed pretty well. Would like to upgrade to Campy Chorus or Record when I switch but the rub is many know that have played with Campy BB's that the Chorus and Record cranksets have a slightly different offset then Xenon, Mirage, Veloce and Centaur. The rub is if I want to put my Veloce triple crankset on a Chorus or Record BB, the longest spindle offered with Chorus/Record triple BB's 111mm. (102mm for double) This represents a 4.5mm difference or my Veloce triple kchainrings would be mounted 4.5 mm...about 1/4 inch more inboard I believe with the 111mm Chorus/Record triple BB spindle length. What do you think guys?...will this hurt my shifting integrity on the extreme sides of the rear 10s cassette by changing the chain line?
Is my only option then but to upgrade my triple crankset if I want to run a better Campy BB or does anyone have another suggestion.
Thanks for any experience.
George
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Old 06-14-06, 04:16 PM   #2
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My understanding is that the issue with the Chorus and Record BB's is not just the spindle length, it's that the spindle is asymmetric, i.e. slightly longer (2mm?) on one side than the other. So these BB's will only work with Chorus/Record cranksets. I don't know if anyone has ever tried it with Veloce/Centaur cranks, however the new '06 Centaur BB is symmetric and is pretty nice if you want to upgrade.
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Old 06-14-06, 05:27 PM   #3
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I know Campagnolo recommends against mixing Chorus/Record cranks with Centaur/Veloce bottom brackets. It is in the installation instructions. It might be a way to sell more bottom brackets but I don't think so. I think there is a legitimate reason, whether or not it is very important. Metaluna may have the right answer. Besides, once you operate the Record bottom bracket you won't ever want anything else.
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Old 06-14-06, 07:32 PM   #4
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Thanks Guys. I do understand the Record Bottom Bracket is something to behold. The issue is the cost is almost 4:1 for Record to Veloce. I might have to splurge on the Record or opt for another Veloce bottom bracket as a direct replacement. When I hammer I believe my Veloce BB makes a bit of noise...hard to describe but believe it is coming from there.
Appreciate the advice,
George
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Old 06-14-06, 08:01 PM   #5
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SKF has some nice offerings in Campy BBs now. Should be available through your local shop. Some are reasonably priced, some not so much.
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Old 06-14-06, 08:31 PM   #6
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I had a Campy AC-H (I think that's what it was) BB attached to some Veloce triple cranks that totally self-destructed after getting a little moisture in it one time. I replaced it with some no-name BB at the LBS and sold the bike but that left a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak, regarding Campy BBs. My current ride has a Chorus double setup and I did not have to think twice about going with a Phil BB (the mtnbike has one that's about 15 years young). Don't get me wrong, I bleed Campy blue, but I'll never trust another one of their cartridge BBs. The Phil is pretty much install and forget (to repeat what's already been said here on BF many times before). Another attractive feature is the adjustable chainline and the Campy specific tapers with offset if I remember correctly. Check Lickbike.com.

P.S. Phils w/rings are comparable in price to the Record triple. That's a no brainer .
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Old 06-14-06, 09:45 PM   #7
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It can be done, I've done it....but it makes for a LOT more problems in adjusting the gears, as well as chain/cog wear on the smaller cogs. It also tears up the RD cage pulleys.

IMO, get a chorus crank when getting the BB.
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Old 06-15-06, 12:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
I had a Campy AC-H (I think that's what it was) BB attached to some Veloce triple cranks that totally self-destructed after getting a little moisture in it one time. I replaced it with some no-name BB at the LBS and sold the bike but that left a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak, regarding Campy BBs.

Sometimes bad things happen to otherwise good parts. I've got one AC-H on my commuter. It has splashed through a lot of bad weather in the last year.











All in all, I really LOVE my AC-H (Aluminum Cup Hollow spindle) BBs. Both of mine run smooth and silent. I've got one supporting a Veloce 10 speed double crank and the other on a Grey Centaur double.
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Old 06-15-06, 01:49 AM   #9
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the AC-H is a great BB...except for the installation and removal parts. the tooling is abyysmal. just try prying one of the steel-cupped AC-H's out some time and you'll see what i mean. the steel ones are less than half the width of the aluminum version. the tool barely gets a purchase on the cutouts of the "standard" one already.
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Old 06-15-06, 04:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biker7
Guys,
Am currently running a Campy Veloce 115.5mm bottom bracket on my bike and am considering upgrading it shortly. BTW it has performed pretty well. Would like to upgrade to Campy Chorus or Record when I switch but the rub is many know that have played with Campy BB's that the Chorus and Record cranksets have a slightly different offset then Xenon, Mirage, Veloce and Centaur. The rub is if I want to put my Veloce triple crankset on a Chorus or Record BB, the longest spindle offered with Chorus/Record triple BB's 111mm. (102mm for double) This represents a 4.5mm difference or my Veloce triple kchainrings would be mounted 4.5 mm...about 1/4 inch more inboard I believe with the 111mm Chorus/Record triple BB spindle length. What do you think guys?...will this hurt my shifting integrity on the extreme sides of the rear 10s cassette by changing the chain line?
Is my only option then but to upgrade my triple crankset if I want to run a better Campy BB or does anyone have another suggestion.
Thanks for any experience.
George
I just sent you a PM. Your problem should be solved.

Tim
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Old 06-15-06, 07:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cs1
I just sent you a PM. Your problem should be solved.

Tim
I wanted to share Tim's PM response with the board to offer others his insight.
Tim wrote:
Campy now makes the Centaur BB in a triple 115.5mm. I have one of the original black doubles. It is a sealed cartridge with 3 bearings. Looks similar to a Chorus. Cost about $60 retail. It is worlds ahead of the old AC-H BB. You can use it with your Veloce cranks. I have a bike with an AC-H and one of the Centaur light's and you can feel the difference.
When you order it, make sure it's not just an AC-H in black. This BB doesn't have a non drive side lockring. It is just like a Record/Chorus BB. You have to use the Record/Chorus tool also. Good luck.
----

Thanks again Tim. I will look into the new Centaur BB for my triple Veloce crankset. Believe Tim's suggestion above maybe the sweet spot. Upgrading to a Chorus or Record triple crankset would be very expensive over and above a Record/Chorus BB.
George
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Old 06-15-06, 07:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTinSloth
the AC-H is a great BB...except for the installation and removal parts. the tooling is abyysmal. just try prying one of the steel-cupped AC-H's out some time and you'll see what i mean. the steel ones are less than half the width of the aluminum version. the tool barely gets a purchase on the cutouts of the "standard" one already.
This is one of the reasons I replaced my AC-S with an '06 Centaur BB. The new Centaur uses the same splined tool as the Chorus/Record BBs which IMHO works much better, especially if you thread in the crank bolt to hold it in place as you apply torque (plus you can easily use it with a torque wrench).

Also, like biker7, I had some noise/ticking/creaking problems with the Veloce/AC-S that went away after I replaced it with the Centaur.

The trick I found to work with the AC-H/S tool is to put the tool on, then stack on some some large washers or the non-drive-side crankarm to hold the tool engaged, and then hold the whole thing together by loosely threading in the crank bolt. You will have to adjust the tightness of the crank bolt every couple of turns as the cup moves in or out (depending on whether you are installing or removing it), but it works.
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Old 06-15-06, 09:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaluna
This is one of the reasons I replaced my AC-S with an '06 Centaur BB. The new Centaur uses the same splined tool as the Chorus/Record BBs which IMHO works much better, especially if you thread in the crank bolt to hold it in place as you apply torque (plus you can easily use it with a torque wrench).

Also, like biker7, I had some noise/ticking/creaking problems with the Veloce/AC-S that went away after I replaced it with the Centaur.

The trick I found to work with the AC-H/S tool is to put the tool on, then stack on some some large washers or the non-drive-side crankarm to hold the tool engaged, and then hold the whole thing together by loosely threading in the crank bolt. You will have to adjust the tightness of the crank bolt every couple of turns as the cup moves in or out (depending on whether you are installing or removing it), but it works.
A lot of good insight in this thread. Thanks for the advice on using the tool for installing the '06 Centaur BB. I have read about how easy is it to strip the male splined plug tool if not keeping enough preload on it...your technique addresses this issue. I also believe there is a tool out there that expressly uses the crank bolt for preload of the splined male plug...to keep it from stripping but I like your approach using the simple splined plug that is also compatible with the Campy cassette lockring.

A brief question...my guess based upon your description is there is no way to use a torque wrench with using the washer technique as one can only use an open end wrench on the hex O.D. splined plug when using washers against the crank bolt. Do you just swag the torque by feel with a large open end wrench?...versus torquing to a spec?
Thanks,
George
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Old 06-16-06, 03:56 AM   #14
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Eventually, I hope Campy replaces the old AC-H BB with a newer style. Problem is all the cranks are going to get outboard bearings in 2007. That means the developement on square taper BB's will probably end. My advice is to buy a few now if you like them. Expensive as a Phil Wood is, you can always get replacement cartridges. Good luck

Tim
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Old 06-16-06, 06:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cs1
Eventually, I hope Campy replaces the old AC-H BB with a newer style. Problem is all the cranks are going to get outboard bearings in 2007. That means the developement on square taper BB's will probably end. My advice is to buy a few now if you like them. Expensive as a Phil Wood is, you can always get replacement cartridges. Good luck

Tim
Maybe overall transitioning to the outboard bearing design is an improvement. Seems as though the whole industry is moving this direction. From an engineering standpoint it makes sense that the bearings be as outboard as possible due to loading moment of the pedals. Tim...if you read this...can you confirm you do not use a torque wrench when installing a Chorus/Record style BB when using washers to maintain preload on the splined male plug tool? Don't see how you could get a socket on the O.D. hex with this technique and therefore an open end wrench would be your only option unless I am missing something.
Thanks,
George
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Old 06-16-06, 03:44 PM   #16
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If you have a campy bb/locking tool (I use the Pedro's version), and the right SCREW, you can have a washer cut to fit inside the socket if you are using a spark plug socket where there is no "bottom" inside the ratchet mating surface, and use a screwdriver to do the final tightening of that screw from inside the socket...then wrench.

That should give you both your tool renention, and the ability to use a socketed wrench.
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Old 06-16-06, 04:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biker7
A lot of good insight in this thread. Thanks for the advice on using the tool for installing the '06 Centaur BB. I have read about how easy is it to strip the male splined plug tool if not keeping enough preload on it...your technique addresses this issue. I also believe there is a tool out there that expressly uses the crank bolt for preload of the splined male plug...to keep it from stripping but I like your approach using the simple splined plug that is also compatible with the Campy cassette lockring.

The Tacx tool has a spring-loaded bolt built into it, and 32mm hex flats. This is a pretty cool gadget, but it's difficult to use with a torque wrench unless you can find a *really* deep socket. There are pictures of them here (the blue one is for the Record/Chorus/new Centaur BB's). They also make a red one that fits the AC-H, which is pretty cool. I bought one thinking I could slip a deep 32mm socket over it but it's just too big.


Quote:
Originally Posted by biker7
A brief question...my guess based upon your description is there is no way to use a torque wrench with using the washer technique as one can only use an open end wrench on the hex O.D. splined plug when using washers against the crank bolt. Do you just swag the torque by feel with a large open end wrench?...versus torquing to a spec?
Thanks,
George

With the tool I have (Park BBT-5), the crank bolt from my Veloce crankset holds it securely without needing any washers. The bolt is also small enough so that it doesn't hang over the hex flats. So, you can just fit a 1" socket right over the whole assembly without any problems (I didn't even need a deep socket), though I recommend taking the plastic cap off of the bolt. I had no problem at all using a torque wrench with the Park BBT-5.
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Old 06-16-06, 06:48 PM   #18
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As stated earlier, this a great thread among Campy enthusiasts. Thanks to all the above for your keen insight including special hints of how to install a Chorus/Record style BB...which I will use when the time comes. As it turns out I need the 111mm symmetric spindle not the 115.5mm spindle for my Veloce triple as I intially thought.

Here are some notes I put together to help solve the mystery of what BB to go with:
CENTAUR™ Bottom Bracket ITA, ENG ; 111, 115.5 mm cartridge b.b. - hollow axle- light alloy cups - axle L. 111 mm for double crankset - axle L.111 mm for triple crankset with seat tube Ø 28.6 mm - axle L. 115.5 mm for triple crankset with oversize seat tube Ø 32 or 35 mm 233 gr


http://www.bellatisport.com/shop/cat...m_bracket.html



Q. Which spindle length ‘06 Centaur BB for my Veloce Triple Crankset?

Ans: a 111mm symmetric BB for the Veloce/Centaur/Mirage triple crankset.

Note: the Record/Chorus triple BB is not interchangeable because the Record/Chorus 111mm BB spindle is “asymmetric”.

The reason I need a 111mm versus 115.5mm spindle length is I have a std. 28.6mm seat tube diameter on my Bianchi Veloce frame not an oversize seat tube.


http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in...p/t-80087.html

Lastly, because of how important this thread is to me, it is only fitting to give sydney the last word in discussing the nuance of the Campy BB as only he could describe. To my fellow bicycle gear heads...he lives on with us:

sydney
This used to be the case years ago, but is not normally the case today. My Sutherlands has a full listing of the axle end factors and dimensions and modern bb axles are almost universally even on both sides to eliminate discrepancies in q factor.Well, the 111 for a record triple is asymetric and not interchangable with the 111 symetric ones speced for centaur, athena, veloce, racing ,triple, and veloce.As for Q, that is also where spider design comes into play too.
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