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  1. #1
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Shimano HG 8-speed saga

    Well, I've been through 19 pages of this forum trying to find any posts that might relate to the problems I've been having with my Shimano 8-speed systems, with no matches yet. Finally figured I'd simply post my saga up here instead of waiting for the BF Search function to return.

    I have two 8-speed equipped machines: One, an '83 Peugeot PSV-10 that I built up with an FSA RD-80 wheelset, Shimano 8-speed Ultegra/105 barcons, and a Shimano RX-100 8-speed RD; the other, a stock, 1999 Gary Fisher Tassajara with Shimano LX.

    Neither bikes came with their respective cassettes, as the Fisher was missing the rear wheel, and the Peugeot, of course, is a custom build-up.

    I recently purchased a used (600 miles max) 8-speed 12-21t HG cassette off of eBay to use on one of the two machines. I intended to use this cassette on the Gary Fisher, as I plan to use the Fisher as my basket bike/grocery beater.

    So far, so good. The cassette arrived in the mail a few days ago. I mounted it, tightened it, and put the wheel in the dropouts. The gear cable was replaced, and the derailer adjusted accordingly.

    I also replaced the chain with a slightly-used HG chain I had on hand, as the chain that was on the Fisher when I got it is shot to the extreme - at least five rollers in various places are gone, and at the very least, 6 more are cracked. The wear on the front chainrings are evident of this.

    But I digress - back to where I was. I set the system up as I described above, and proceeded to adjust the cable tension accordingly.

    To make a long story short, no amount of adjustment could get the derailer to shift up the cluster, and down, without the chain grinding (but not engaging) on one cog or another when either upshifting or downshifting. Sure, I could adjust it to get up the cluster fine, but that particular adjustment wouldn't allow it to shift down properly. I could also get it to downshift flawlessly, but not without problems getting it to shift up.

    At this point, I determined the problem was probably one of the following:

    #1: Shifters made for 8-speed IG cassette instead of HG cassette. As the front chainring on the bike states "for IG chain only," I figured that this could be a possibility. Then again, I have my second thoughts as to this, for HG and IG chains aren't vastly different, and I could see where an overstock of IG-labeled cranksets would be used on HG equipped bikes. Furthermore, I scoured Google and Sheldon's site for such a thing as an IG 8-speed cassette, and came up with nothing.

    #2: Derailer is bent. I don't think it is, but from the way the chain faired on this bike, I wouldn't be surprised if the yahoo who owned this machine before me did manage to damage the derailer in some way or another.

    Both fed up and curious with my findings, I inspected the 8-speed cassette to make sure it wasn't jerry-rigged out of various cassette parts (been there, done that - the first 8 speed cassette I bought had been cobbled by the LBS with some 7 speed cogs). This time, at least, I got myself an OK cassette - all cog codes match, and all the spacers check out at 3mm/ea.

    Curious at these findings, I figured I'd mount the cassette on a bike that I know was made with new, or nearly-new 8-speed Hyperglide components - my Peugeot PSV-10 project. Equipped with brand new Ultegra/105 8-speed barcons with brand new cables and housing, a KMC 7/8-speed chain, and a used RX-100 derailer from the LBS. Nothing can go wrong this time, eh?

    Well, you'd be wrong. The same damn problem presented itself on the Peugeot. As the RX-100 derailer was the only used part in the group, I pulled out a nearly-new Shimano 600 8-speed ("8s" stamped on pulley cage to boot) rear mech that I had, and mounted that in place of the RX-100.

    Improvement? Yes, but marginal at that. After about 10 minutes tinkering with both the derailer and downtube adjuster barrels, double checking to see that all derailer adjustments were correct and that the cable was set correctly, AND that the cable was not binding anywhere - I was able to get the derailer to shift both up, and down the cluster - in the most marginal fashion.

    Curious as to whether this poor excuse for HG shifting would hold up on the road, I took it for a test ride. Sure enough, it would actually shift through the cluster both up and down, but not without some nice gear grinding.

    Incidentally, these grindings happen in similar locations as when I had the Fisher in it's (relatively) best shifting form - grinding on 5th to 6th (from the small cog) when going up, fourth to third when going down. Of course, if I tightened the adjuster barrel a quarter or half turn, this problem would go away...when upshifting. Similar result for downshifting if the barrel was loosened - but then upshifting would be a nightmare.

    After testing both the Fisher and the Peugeot and experiencing these same problems, one would believe that the cassette is the part at fault, eh? Yet, further examination confirms what I said before about the cassette - never been fiddled with, and save for some grease on the cogs from these tests, looks virtually new.

    I should mention that I also inspected the cables on both bikes, and am pleased to say that both are as smooth as butter.

    Well, folks - I'm at my wits end. Anyone have any insights or help? Maybe an 8-speed cog known to be in working order (Hint, Hint )?

    ANY help whatsoever would be greatly appreciated.

    All the best,

    -Kurt

  2. #2
    mousse de chocolat Moose's Avatar
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    Sounds alot like you're using a 7 speed barcon. They have enough clicks for eight cogs, but the last click isn't "official". The spacing is oh-so-close but frustratingly inadequate. What is the part # on the shifter?

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    to me the answer is clear: indexing is for people who dont know how to use friction. (provided i suppose they arnt racing. which you arnt on a 23 year old french bike) switch it to friction, then see. i've used 8 speed rings, 9 speed chain, 7 speed cluster and old mechs, with no worries, and all the parts have been of various vintages. unless your parts are totally knackered, that will work. if it doesnt, something is bent or worn beyond repair.

    if your gunna jump down my gullet for liking friction, screw off, i dont care or wanna hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    if your gunna jump down my gullet for liking friction, screw off, i dont care or wanna hear it.
    Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop offering unwanted and unhelpful comments to a request for help.

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose
    Sounds alot like you're using a 7 speed barcon. They have enough clicks for eight cogs, but the last click isn't "official". The spacing is oh-so-close but frustratingly inadequate. What is the part # on the shifter?
    PN on the shifter cover is SL-BS64, and the ring around the friction/index section is marked "8s". I'm pretty certain that the PN is for the 8-speed piece. Also has the "not for Dura-Ace" sticker on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    to me the answer is clear: indexing is for people who dont know how to use friction. (provided i suppose they arnt racing. which you arnt on a 23 year old french bike) switch it to friction, then see. i've used 8 speed rings, 9 speed chain, 7 speed cluster and old mechs, with no worries, and all the parts have been of various vintages. unless your parts are totally knackered, that will work. if it doesnt, something is bent or worn beyond repair.

    if your gunna jump down my gullet for liking friction, screw off, i dont care or wanna hear it.
    Well, you certainly did open the flood gates wide open, didn't you?

    For your information, I so happen to be a friction fellow myself (whether racing or riding), but I don't particularly care for how you distribute your gospel. If you don't like index, that's fine, but it's high-time you get off your high horse and jump in a river of boiling water - it'll cool your hot head off.

    Listen here - when I spend a fair chunk of change on a damn drivetrain that's supposed to work together, I expect it to work right in all modes - I don't care if I can run it in index, it BETTER work in friction.

    Now that you [ridelugs] have read this, you can "screw off" and shut up, cause "I don't wanna hear it."

    P.S.: Not winning any races on a 23 year bike? Who said that age had anything to do with it? That PSV-10 weighs no more then 16.5 pounds after I added the FSA wheelset, which I dare most '06 Alpha Aluminum Treks to match.

    -Kurt

  6. #6
    Perineal Pressurized dobber's Avatar
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    I'd suspect the cassette, it's the common element. Isn't the IG a "pre-eight" artifact?

    You say the cassette appears good but you did buy it off ebay so one never knows.
    This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobber
    I'd suspect the cassette, it's the common element. Isn't the IG a "pre-eight" artifact?

    You say the cassette appears good but you did buy it off ebay so one never knows.
    IG was also available in 8-speed configuration. It was intended for MTB applications as the ramps and shaped teeth were a bit different from HG road cassettes. Shimano recommend that IG chains could be used on HG cassettes but not the reverse. I've used IG-90 chains on 8-speed HG cassettes for years with excellent results but never tried an HG chain on an IG cassette.

    I agree it seems your cassette is suspect but an IG chain may solve the problem. However, new 8-speed cassettes aren't that expensive and I'd get one rather than fighting this thing much more.

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    in defense of my response: A if you dont like it, ignore it. B if it works fine in friction you know you indexing is off. havnt you ever read any sherlock holmes? when all other possibilities are eliminated, the
    remaining possibility, no matter how outrageous, must be the answer.

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    also, alex singer bikes might have weighted 16 lbs with fenders and racks, but they, as beautiful as they are, would stand no chance against a modern racing bike. i say that as i fan of old bikes and a hater of new ones. its just fact.

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    also: no one opens flood gates any more. more need to be opened. if we lack strong convictions, we lack the ability to be fully convicted of any one idea, which opens the flood gates to compromise and medicority. also, if you take all of this as a personal slight, ok, be insulted. but you should be no more insulted if i said i hate picasso, and you love him, as its just one mans opinion, and the source therein must always be regarded as such, just an opinion.

  11. #11
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Three or four years ago I built up an Alivio 8-speed drivetrain on a steel mtb frame for my wife to use for bikepath cruising and riding around town. The crankset has a decal that says something to the affect of "IG chains only", so I put an IG chain on it to go with the eight speed trigger shifters (Alivio), and Alivio derailleurs front and rear. The cassette is an eight speed SRAM, 11 x 32 I believe. This setup rivals the all-XT nine speed drivetrain on my mountain bike as far as smooth and crisp shifting. I would think the 8-speed SRAM cassette isn't specced for IG (it was slightly used, came off another bike with a different drivetrain), so it seems some HG/IG items get along fine together. I don't know if any of this will help, just giving you some feedback on 8-speed stuff-
    Last edited by well biked; 08-15-06 at 11:49 AM.

  12. #12
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobber
    You say the cassette appears good but you did buy it off ebay so one never knows.
    True. It would explain why the all-new, HG equipped Peugeot is giving me trouble.

    Hillrider does point out that the Fisher's problem might lie in the IG setup.


    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    IG was also available in 8-speed configuration. It was intended for MTB applications as the ramps and shaped teeth were a bit different from HG road cassettes. Shimano recommend that IG chains could be used on HG cassettes but not the reverse. I've used IG-90 chains on 8-speed HG cassettes for years with excellent results but never tried an HG chain on an IG cassette.

    I agree it seems your cassette is suspect but an IG chain may solve the problem. However, new 8-speed cassettes aren't that expensive and I'd get one rather than fighting this thing much more.
    Do you happen to know the width of the cogs and spacers for an IG 8-speed cassette? Perhaps I might be able to cobble one together from some IG cassettes and some 9-speed spacers.

    I'm running one of those HG w/IG chain setups on my '84 Raleigh Competition with spectacular success. Likewise, I've never tried the IG w/HG chain setup before, but as Shimano doesn't reccomend it, I don't think I'll bother to waste a chainpin on that theory.


    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    in defense of my response: A if you dont like it, ignore it. B if it works fine in friction you know you indexing is off. havnt you ever read any sherlock holmes? when all other possibilities are eliminated, the
    remaining possibility, no matter how outrageous, must be the answer.
    A: If you had started your sentence with "In defense of my attack", you would have been a bit more accurate. You really do tempt me to put you on my ignore list.

    In other words, you can't throw around rude statments and expect them to make no more or less of an impact then a neutral or positive commentary.

    B: "if it works fine in friction you know you indexing is off" Very curious statement, my friend. Is that to say that if indexing works, friction does not? Hooey!

    Furthermore, that is a preposterous mutilation of Doyle's famous Holmes quote: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    also, alex singer bikes might have weighted 16 lbs with fenders and racks, but they, as beautiful as they are, would stand no chance against a modern racing bike. i say that as i fan of old bikes and a hater of new ones. its just fact.
    Fact? Let me see you back that up with facts.

    It is well known that the rider is more important then the bicycle. I recall a friend of mine once telling me about one criterium he participated in, in where the winner of the race put the rest of the field in the dust on a machine that was no better then a Schwinn Varsity or Continental. It later turned out that the rider happened to be one of the fellows on the 7-Up team back then.

    -Kurt

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by well biked
    Three or four years ago I built up an Alivio 8-speed drivetrain on a steel mtb frame for my wife to use for bikepath cruising and riding around town. The crankset has a decal that says something to the affect of "IG chains only", so I put an IG chain on it to go with the eight speed trigger shifters (Alivio), and Alivio derailleurs front and rear. The cassette is an eight speed SRAM, 11 x 32 I believe. This setup rivals the all-XT nine speed drivetrain on my mountain bike as far as smooth and crisp shifting. I would think the 8-speed SRAM cassette isn't specced for IG (it was slightly used, came off another bike with a different drivetrain), so it seems some HG/IG items get along fine together. I don't know if any of this will help, just giving you some feedback on 8-speed stuff-
    Interesting. I might try picking up a SRAM cassette in place of the Shimano, and run IG chain. Might work.

    Leaves one wondering as to what plauges the Peugeot though.


    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    also: no one opens flood gates any more. more need to be opened. if we lack strong convictions, we lack the ability to be fully convicted of any one idea, which opens the flood gates to compromise and medicority. also, if you take all of this as a personal slight, ok, be insulted. but you should be no more insulted if i said i hate picasso, and you love him, as its just one mans opinion, and the source therein must always be regarded as such, just an opinion.
    This is not a case of open thinking VS. otherwise, this is a case of opinions, and the definition of opinion until it becomes forced.

    Your thoughts would be opinions if you weren't militant about them. As for the rest of the hoopla you posted there, most of it contradicts itself tenfold.

    Point is, instead of stating your simple opinion and preference to friction shifting, you choose to mouth off your holy gospel on the subject, e.g.: Whoever isn't a frictionee should push off/go to hell/go F*** somewhere (take your pick), etc. This is not an opinion - this is forcing your ideas on others.

    -Kurt

  14. #14
    cycles per second Gonzo Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    Do you happen to know the width of the cogs and spacers for an IG 8-speed cassette? Perhaps I might be able to cobble one together from some IG cassettes and some 9-speed spacers.
    I think cog-to-cog spacing is the same between IG and HG but IG cogs are 0.5mm thicker so that both sides of the teeth could be ramped. So IG spacers are 0.5mm thinner than HG.

    Do you have an 8-speed cassette that does work on either bike? If so, the problem is likely the eBay cassette.

    Also, I'm a bit confused. You say the indexing is working on either end of the cassette but the issues are in the middle? I'm trying to think of a scenario that could result in this and the only thing that comes to mind is mismatched shifters/cassette or mixing Dura-Ace and non-Dura-Ace shifter/derailer. One other possibility is incorrect attachment of the cable at the rear derailer causing it to move too much per shift (this method can be used to use 9-speed shifters on an 8-speed cassette). But then it would likely be off at one or both ends.

  15. #15
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Bob
    I think cog-to-cog spacing is the same between IG and HG but IG cogs are 0.5mm thicker so that both sides of the teeth could be ramped. So IG spacers are 0.5mm thinner than HG.

    Do you have an 8-speed cassette that does work on either bike? If so, the problem is likely the eBay cassette.

    Also, I'm a bit confused. You say the indexing is working on either end of the cassette but the issues are in the middle? I'm trying to think of a scenario that could result in this and the only thing that comes to mind is mismatched shifters/cassette or mixing Dura-Ace and non-Dura-Ace shifter/derailer. One other possibility is incorrect attachment of the cable at the rear derailer causing it to move too much per shift (this method can be used to use 9-speed shifters on an 8-speed cassette). But then it would likely be off at one or both ends.
    Hmm. One would wonder if the cog width is the problem on the Fisher. I could concevably put together an IG 8-speed cassette with IG 7-speed cogs and Shimano 9-speed spacers (2.56mm, close enough to 2.5).

    No, I have yet to get a cassette to work on either bike, which irritates me considerably, for in addition to this eBay cassette, I had purchased earlier at the LBS, another used 8-speed cassette which turned out to have the last three cogs jerry-rigged from 9 and 7 speed cassettes.

    The indexing issues are usually two or three cogs from either the top or bottom position. Commonly cog four to five when upshifting - sometimes five to six; and when downshifting, cog four to three, or more commonly, three to two.

    -Kurt

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    Shimano undertook a forcible action when it introduced shifting to the masses. It said this is the only way shifting can and will be done. It mandated use of all Shimano parts for proper function, it required users to keep up with so called advances in shifting technology by phasing out old grouppos, and replacing them with new, non-compatible parts. Shimanos opinion that friction was a dead technology forced suntour out of business, even though shimano would not have been able to make a indexing derailleur if it had not been for suntour’s slant parallelogram, and sedisports’ bushingless flexible chain.
    Stating an opinion in a forum, which is based around people’s opinions, is not militant nor is it forcible. Even writing a book on a subject or going on TV to espouse a certain view point, no matter how off base or vulgar or wrong it may be, is not a forcible action. Force implies compliance under duress, like trying to get a friction thumb shifter and being told that not only are they not available, but you must “upgrade” your entire drive-train because of this lack of availability. That’s force. That’s leaving someone with no other choice than compliance to a norm. Allow me to take this somewhat out of context for a minute: if I stated, as a major bike company, that the only way you could swap your worn out saddle, was if you got a new post, new saddle, new shorts, new chamois crème and matching helmet, you would scoff and say that’s ridiculous. Which it would be. This is not only ridiculous but also an act of forcible compliance, and an act of unbridled capitalism. How is using friction shifting not a good idea? Its easier to use, anyone canbe taught to roughly adjust a friction drive train. It has lower tolerances, particularly when combined with fewer rear cogs, ie a 6 speed drive-train is much easier to adjust and maintain than a 10spd one. It allows flagrant intermixing of parts of various vintage and price level, not to mention parts in various states of wear.
    Furthermore, indexing robs us of the artistry and personal touch that used to go into not only custom drive-trains but also manufacturer’s spec. Once we were not limited to a strictly campy or strictly shimano drive-train (I realize we arnt completely limited today, with sram roughly interchangeable with shimano 8 and 9 speed equipment, but you cant use a shimano road mech with a campy shifter, ect) we could choose zues derailluers, regina chains, sachs malliard freewheels, ta cranks, huret shifters, and our bikes were richer and more unique because of it. Every bike had a mechanical story to tell. Now people just brag about how compliant their bikes are, check out my new dura ace crap, arn’t these external bearings ugly? Yeah man I love that crud. The uglier and more like the next bike the better right? I realize that is going to piss of the fellow with the new Dura Ace crap, but its just an opinion, and he does have to agree, comply or like it. That’s the beauty of opinion.
    The same unfortunately goes for clothing and cars and even houses. The guy who wears sandals to a wedding or hemp jeans or isn’t wearing a polo shirt in that summer’s latest colour is an outcast. The art of designing a drive-train is gone, the work done now by computers that was once done by engineers with an eye towards functional beauty. The art of shifting has passed us by, replaced by what the companies think shifting should be, a series of clicks followed by a hopefully perfect shift. The feel of friction is lost to future generations, replaced by small plastic cogs so intricate that only top mechanics know how modern shifters work. With friction the truth was on the table, you could see how exactly the cable was pulled, and could take the entire mechanism apart with a screwdriver, re-lube and reinstall in under 20 minutes.
    I’ll take my knocks; maybe being a hardcase makes me deserve all I get. But I’ll never allow myself to be subdued, forced into compliance for the sake appearing contemporary, regardless of what so called advantages indexing may offer. I’ve ridden it. I know its wiles and ways. I also know it’s a marketing shame, designed to sell parts, and even if this wasn’t originally the goal, its also designed to exterminate a way of shifting and riding a bike that’s been around for over 75 years. The ostensible pros of index shifting are far out weighted by its numerous cons. The only positive thing about is ease of use, and friction is actually easier, once you get than hang of it. Suspension and carbon are in the same boat, they rob us of the art that used to be bicycles and bike riding.

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    one last point, B: "if it works fine in friction you know you indexing is off" Very curious statement, my friend. Is that to say that if indexing works, friction does not? Hooey! how does this statement hold up? my point was that if it works in friction you know the chain and cassette are not at fault but rather the shifter. i would have thought this obvious.

    Furthermore, that is a preposterous mutilation of Doyle's famous Holmes quote: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
    and i never claimed to be quoting directly, but rather garnering the essence of the statement.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Sometimes I feel like a broken record but, for any rear shifting problem that doesn't respond to normal tuneing, the first thing that I do is to check the derailleur hanger alignment.

    Most of the time that solves the problem. Even if the hanger is straight, I have eliminated that as being a possibility. Unless you know the hanger alignment is right, you can spend a ton of time and money chasing down other possibilities.

  19. #19
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
    Sometimes I feel like a broken record but, for any rear shifting problem that doesn't respond to normal tuneing, the first thing that I do is to check the derailleur hanger alignment.

    Most of the time that solves the problem. Even if the hanger is straight, I have eliminated that as being a possibility. Unless you know the hanger alignment is right, you can spend a ton of time and money chasing down other possibilities.
    Hanger alignment checks on both bikes. The Peugeot's is aligned, and both the frame (better be!) and steel hanger of the Fisher Tassajara are aligned correctly as well.

    -Kurt

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    Shimano undertook a forcible action when it introduced shifting to the masses. It said this is the only way shifting can and will be done. It mandated use of all Shimano parts for proper function, it required users to keep up with so called advances in shifting technology by phasing out old grouppos, and replacing them with new, non-compatible parts. Shimanos opinion that friction was a dead technology forced suntour out of business, even though shimano would not have been able to make a indexing derailleur if it had not been for suntourís slant parallelogram, and sedisportsí bushingless flexible chain.
    Stating an opinion in a forum, which is based around peopleís opinions, is not militant nor is it forcible. Even writing a book on a subject or going on TV to espouse a certain view point, no matter how off base or vulgar or wrong it may be, is not a forcible action. Force implies compliance under duress, like trying to get a friction thumb shifter and being told that not only are they not available, but you must ďupgradeĒ your entire drive-train because of this lack of availability. Thatís force. Thatís leaving someone with no other choice than compliance to a norm. Allow me to take this somewhat out of context for a minute: if I stated, as a major bike company, that the only way you could swap your worn out saddle, was if you got a new post, new saddle, new shorts, new chamois crŤme and matching helmet, you would scoff and say thatís ridiculous. Which it would be. This is not only ridiculous but also an act of forcible compliance, and an act of unbridled capitalism. How is using friction shifting not a good idea? Its easier to use, anyone canbe taught to roughly adjust a friction drive train. It has lower tolerances, particularly when combined with fewer rear cogs, ie a 6 speed drive-train is much easier to adjust and maintain than a 10spd one. It allows flagrant intermixing of parts of various vintage and price level, not to mention parts in various states of wear.
    Furthermore, indexing robs us of the artistry and personal touch that used to go into not only custom drive-trains but also manufacturerís spec. Once we were not limited to a strictly campy or strictly shimano drive-train (I realize we arnt completely limited today, with sram roughly interchangeable with shimano 8 and 9 speed equipment, but you cant use a shimano road mech with a campy shifter, ect) we could choose zues derailluers, regina chains, sachs malliard freewheels, ta cranks, huret shifters, and our bikes were richer and more unique because of it. Every bike had a mechanical story to tell. Now people just brag about how compliant their bikes are, check out my new dura ace crap, arnít these external bearings ugly? Yeah man I love that crud. The uglier and more like the next bike the better right? I realize that is going to piss of the fellow with the new Dura Ace crap, but its just an opinion, and he does have to agree, comply or like it. Thatís the beauty of opinion.
    The same unfortunately goes for clothing and cars and even houses. The guy who wears sandals to a wedding or hemp jeans or isnít wearing a polo shirt in that summerís latest colour is an outcast. The art of designing a drive-train is gone, the work done now by computers that was once done by engineers with an eye towards functional beauty. The art of shifting has passed us by, replaced by what the companies think shifting should be, a series of clicks followed by a hopefully perfect shift. The feel of friction is lost to future generations, replaced by small plastic cogs so intricate that only top mechanics know how modern shifters work. With friction the truth was on the table, you could see how exactly the cable was pulled, and could take the entire mechanism apart with a screwdriver, re-lube and reinstall in under 20 minutes.
    Iíll take my knocks; maybe being a hardcase makes me deserve all I get. But Iíll never allow myself to be subdued, forced into compliance for the sake appearing contemporary, regardless of what so called advantages indexing may offer. Iíve ridden it. I know its wiles and ways. I also know itís a marketing shame, designed to sell parts, and even if this wasnít originally the goal, its also designed to exterminate a way of shifting and riding a bike thatís been around for over 75 years. The ostensible pros of index shifting are far out weighted by its numerous cons. The only positive thing about is ease of use, and friction is actually easier, once you get than hang of it. Suspension and carbon are in the same boat, they rob us of the art that used to be bicycles and bike riding.
    You must be paid by the word.

  21. #21
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    You must be paid by the word.
    No, no, he has his points there, and I agree with his points about indexing VS. friction and vintage quality VS modern junk. It his arrogance in some of his posts that ticks me off.

    -Kurt

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    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    ....he has his points there....
    Yes he does and he beats them absolutely to death. Enough is enough.

    ...vintage quality VS modern junk.
    Lets see, vintage quality like Zeus, Normandy, Huret, etc., etc.. Whose song had the line; "These are the good old days." ?

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    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    Lets see, vintage quality like Zeus, Normandy, Huret, etc., etc.. Whose song had the line; "These are the good old days." ?
    Don't forget Campagnolo

    -Kurt

  24. #24
    Perineal Pressurized dobber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridelugs
    Shimano undertook a forcible action when it introduced shifting to the masses...........................Suspension and carbon are in the same boat, they rob us of the art that used to be bicycles and bike riding.

    You know what else pisses me off? Seatbelts. Seatbelts and unleaded gas.



    As for cassette spacing

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html
    This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Chuckie J.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    No, no, he has his points there, and I agree with his points about indexing VS. friction and vintage quality VS modern junk. It his arrogance in some of his posts that ticks me off.

    -Kurt
    You are very fair. That's a nice quality. He may have some excellent points but without paragraphs (paragraphs-- now *those* are old school!) I'm not getting near it on the internet.

    Loving the concise and hoping you get your problem solved.

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