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Old 10-03-06, 06:00 AM   #1
the5h4rk
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looking to upgrade shimano components

gday all

im a newbie to this forum and ive just recently jumped on the road cycling bandwagon. i bought myself an 06trek1000 a few weeks ago for AU$850. i recon i got a good deal. its a great bike for the money, but the problem is that im getting into cycling a bit more than i first thought i would, which is great, but im getting a bit fussy with the cheaper components on the bike.

my trek is fitted out with 8spd tiagra rear derailleur and 2spd tiagra front derailleur, sora shifters, ordinary wheels, and very ordinary brakes.

please excuse my nievity and poor terminology...

my main problem is with the front derailleur (im guessing thats the problem) ive been constantly adjusting the 2 little screws on it to get it running more smoothly but i can never get it quite right.

the problem is this: when im on the small cog on the front i cant shift into the 3 smallest gears at the rear without the chain clicking and rubbing. and when im in the big cog at the front i cant shift into the 4 biggest gears at the back, without clicking, rubbing, grinding, etc.

the reason this is a big problem for me is because when im riding at around 30km/h, at a comfortable cadence there is no gear that will run smoothly! and im constantly shifting both levers to try n find a gear!

very frustrating

im sure the experienced cycling folk would have a good ol chuckle about this, and it serves me right for getting a cheap bike!

is it worth upgrading components on this bike? i mean, i recon the frames pretty good.

anyone who has a trek1000, or even tiagra derailleurs, do you have this problem?

anyone have any suggestions as to how i can fix this problem? what components i should be upgrading?

your thoughts would be much appreciated
cheers
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Old 10-03-06, 06:10 AM   #2
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The Sora front derailleur is a little fiddly, but I don't know that you should be messing with the limit screws constantly. You can usually get it shifting well & upgrading does not really solve poor adjustment. Could you take it in to the shop where you bought the bike for some assistance? Also look at this: http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=75

From your description, it sounds like part of your problem is cross chaining. Bikes do not like gear combos that put the chain at big angles. Running the small ring and the small rear cogs will never perform that well.
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Old 10-03-06, 06:44 AM   #3
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You need to have someone who knows what they're doing adjust the front derailleur!

FWIW, on short chainstay racing frames, you can't use the smallest 2 cogs in the rear while in the small chainring, nor is it advisable to use the largest 2 while in the big ring. Those combinations are inherently noisy because the chain is at a severe angle and drag and wear are much greater as well.

Was the bike new? I don't recall ever seeing a Trek 1000 that didn't come with a triple crank. Perhaps it is different where you live...

Good luck and welcome to the forums.
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Old 10-03-06, 06:52 AM   #4
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Thanks barba.
When I say that I fiddle with the screws, I mean I only make very minor adjustments. When I purchased the bike it got properly fitted and serviced for me, I took it for a ride that day and brought it back after a few hours to be adjusted again because of this problem, the man put it up on a stand, turned the pedals over while adjusting those two screws a bit and handed it back saying “this is as good as your gonna get it”
I understand the concept of cross chaining, but I expected the range of accessible gears should be greater. I mean surely the ultegras and dura-aces don’t have this problem.

I do have one free service with the purchase of the bike, since ive got a big ride coming up on the 15th I think ill take it in for a service on around the 13thish
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Old 10-03-06, 07:08 AM   #5
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1. Welcome to cycling. I'm glad you enjoy it and are really getting into it.
2. Your riding and experience level isn't nearly high enough for you to be disappointed wiht Tiagra in any other way than "I know there's better stuff out there." Some people don't like the design of the Sora shifters, but they do work. The "very ordinary brakes" are probably dual-pivots that work plenty well. (Although you didn't get a great deal if AU currency equates 1:1 with American - I don't know the exchange rate though.)
3. The problem that you're experiencing was addressed well enough by barba and BikeWise1, although you seem incredulous. But the problem of cross-chaining is a problem of geometry, and Dura Ace or Ultegra wouldn't fix that in any way.
It may be useful to pinpoint the problem further. When you're in the small/inner chainring (front gear) and the smallest/outer sprockets (rear gears) is the chain rubbing against the front derailler cage or against the large/outer chainring? (When you're in the large/outer chainring the rubbing is definitely against the derailler cage b/c there's no way the chain could touch the small chainring.)
4. One upgrade that could help you in getting more cross-chain angles that don't rub the derailler cage is to switch to Campagnolo shifters, or some other type of Shimano shifters (down-tube, bar-end shifters that Shimano makes) that don't have indexed front shifting. With a two-step front-derailler adjustment from Shimano STI shifters, you can't "trim" the front derailler cage at all. Most cyclists traditionally would "trim" the front derailler cage depending on the angle at which the chain was heading toward the rear sprockets, and so you wouldn't get chain rub.
5. Even as-is, you've still got a full range of gear ratios without any real gap. You just need to know when to shift into your large chainring as your speed increases, and which rear sprocket to shift into at the same time.

6. Finally, I'd recommend taking your bike in for the free service sooner than later. Then you can get used to riding it when it's shifting as well as it can. Your odds of having something go wrong in the interim are low.

Last edited by TallRider; 10-03-06 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 10-03-06, 07:34 AM   #6
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Cheers bikewise1 The bike is a 2006 trek 1000. and yeah mine only has a double crank.

“can't use the smallest 2 cogs in the rear while in the small chainring, nor is it advisable to use the largest 2 while in the big ring. Those combinations are inherently noisy because the chain is at a severe angle and drag and wear are much greater as well”

yeah I understand this, but is a trek1000 a short chainstay ‘racing frame?’, and if u cant reach the top 2 and bottom 2 when u have a 10speed cassette then that’s fine. I only have an 8speed cassette and cant reach 3 of these in the small crank, and 4 of these in the big crank.


Thanks timcupery, I don’t really have a problem with the sora shifters atm although it would be cool to change both up n down with fingers, as for the breaks, I guess im just used to the power of mtb brakes. Excuse my ignorance, but why don’t they use Vbrakes on road bikes?? They seem more powerfull.

Atm AU$1 buys US$0.75 so I got my bike for about US$637


Im thinking the front derailleur rotational angle might be the problem. I dunno if I should be fiddeling with that tho, ill mention it when I take it in for a service.
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Old 10-03-06, 07:43 AM   #7
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You're right about front derailler rotational angle possibly being a problem - that would narrow the available range of angles at which the chain could leave the front crankset. Since you're running 8-speed gearing (I was assuming 9, since this is a new bike and all - but I should have remembered that Sora Shifters were 8-speed) you're having a smaller range of available gears than I'd thought. It really does sound problematic. And I'd again say take the bike in for its tuneup sooner rather than later. The Trek 1000 is a short-chainstay frame (most road frames are designed with racing geometry even though most riders won't race them - it's stupid, sort of marketing driven by watching-the-pros) but you should still have more available gears. I'd say you should have only two gears unavailable from the small chainring, and three gears unavailable from the large chainring.

V-brakes have greater mechanical advantage, but Sora or Tiagra dual-pivot brakes are a good design that offers a fair bit of mechanical advantage as well. You should be able to brake plenty well from the brake hoods, and really well with your hands in the drops. V-brakes and cantilever brakes fit around wider tires, but require mounting studs (bosses) to be built into the frame, whereas caliper brakes attach much more simply to the frame.

And the price sounds about right with the exchange rate translation.
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Old 10-03-06, 07:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the5h4rk
I understand the concept of cross chaining, but I expected the range of accessible gears should be greater.
Accessible is not the same as quiet. If you can get into the gears satisfactorily, they are accessible. It is your choice whethe ryou want them enough to put up with the noise.

You seem to have a driving desire to use odd gear combinations, but physics just won't make certain chainlines quiet. If you feel compelled to try, upgrade to Ultegra or DA and report back.

I'll pay shipping to keep that other crap out of the landfill... Let me know in PM and I'll send the postage and my mailing address.

People rode for a long time with only 10 total gears to choose from, and didn't use a few of their available combinations because of chainline issues and noise. Yes, the rule was in place even back in the old ten speed days (what we would now call 5 speed) that you should never use big-big or small-small.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:15 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the5h4rk
I understand the concept of cross chaining, but I expected the range of accessible gears should be greater. I mean surely the ultegras and dura-aces donít have this problem.
As others have already mentioned, Shimano's decision to index the front shifting is largely to blame. Combine that with their decision to not provide at least one trimstop on the Sora shifters and you get a terribly noisy crankset. Ultegra and Dura-Ace have a mid-position trim so while cross-chaining is still not advised because it will still generate excessive wear, it won't be as noisy for the small amount of time you occasionally have to do it.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
You seem to have a driving desire to use odd gear combinations
Quote:
that you should never use big-big or small-small
lol odd gear combinations, did u read my 1st post? im talking about big-medium and small-medium.
i repeat 'I understand the concept of cross chaining'

Quote:
If you can get into the gears satisfactorily, they are accessible. It is your choice whethe ryou want them enough to put up with the noise.
i dont want to hear noise for a few reasons, including wear and inefficiency. and cmon, its 2006, people dont just 'put up with' rubbing chains!
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Old 10-03-06, 08:30 AM   #11
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Ok at this stage this is what ill do:

Ill take it for a spin tomorrow (its midnight here) and find out exactly whats rubbing on what in each of the gears.


Get it in for a service asap, ill mention derailleur rotational angle.


If its still not right then, ill look into shifters that don't have indexed front shifting and where I can trim the front derailler cage.

And only after doing all that will i look into upgrading derailleurs, chains etc.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:40 AM   #12
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There may be a trim on the downtube at the cable housing. Cables stretch a surprising amount over the first 400 mi or so, and you can fiddle with the trim while riding.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:45 AM   #13
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There may be a trim on the downtube at the cable housing. Cables stretch a surprising amount over the first 400 mi or so, and you can fiddle with the trim while riding.
Yeah, but if it were cable adjustment, then he wouldn't have the chain-rub problem in both directions.
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Old 10-03-06, 10:48 AM   #14
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Wasn't suggesting that as a solution to the (apparent) cross-chaining problem. Rather that he doesn't have to go to the limit screws every time it fails to shift perfectly.
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Old 10-03-06, 11:28 AM   #15
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The 2006 Sora shifters do have a trim function. It details it here. It's about in the middle of the page on how to use it. This will probably fix your problem.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/cyclin...9830538833.pdf
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Old 10-03-06, 11:36 AM   #16
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The 2006 Sora shifters do have a trim function. It details it here. It's about in the middle of the page on how to use it. This will probably fix your problem.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/cyclin...9830538833.pdf
Wow! Finally! It's about time Sora got some love. Of course this assumes the OP has the ST-3300/ST-3304.
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Old 10-03-06, 11:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ray Dockrey
The 2006 Sora shifters do have a trim function. It details it here. It's about in the middle of the page on how to use it. This will probably fix your problem.
http://bike.shimano.com/media/cyclin...9830538833.pdf
that's great to know. I'm glad Shimano is getting on this.
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Old 10-03-06, 02:19 PM   #18
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I really wish they would get rid of trim/indexing for the entire line and go for a ratchet style front shifter.
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Old 10-03-06, 02:51 PM   #19
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I learned today that Shimano introduced trimmable semi-indexed front shifting in Dura-Ace 3 or 4 years ago, and the feature has been gradually working its way down. Apparently. I've not used it, so don't know how it compares to Campy's 13-stop system (basically a rachet mechanism, albeit diff sort of racheting than DT or barcon shifters), but it's certainly preferable to Shimano's old fixed-stop front indexing.
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Old 10-03-06, 04:52 PM   #20
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I think you just need to get a good mechanic to tune the bike, maybe have the mechanic explain what's wrong with it. If you want to learn how to adjust your shifting go to the Parktool website as recommended by barba above. Start at the beginning, do all of the steps in proper sequence, and don't leave any steps out. I recommend that you not upgrade the components until they are worn out and then upgrade the whole bike. It's too easy to spend more money on this bike than can be justified in the end.

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Old 10-03-06, 07:51 PM   #21
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I learned today that Shimano introduced trimmable semi-indexed front shifting in Dura-Ace 3 or 4 years ago, and the feature has been gradually working its way down. Apparently. I've not used it, so don't know how it compares to Campy's 13-stop system (basically a rachet mechanism, albeit diff sort of racheting than DT or barcon shifters), but it's certainly preferable to Shimano's old fixed-stop front indexing.
Shimano's trim works okay for the most part but it really does depend on your gear combo and your chainline setup (which depends on your chainstay lengths and so on and so on). It's certainly better than nothing but it also leaves a bit to be desired. There's only one mid-position trim stop so that a triple will have two trim points and a double will have one. You can't really trim out all the noise like you can with Campy's system. I can easily get it to stop complaining loudly when I get into a 53x19 or 53x21 on my 12-27 cassette. If I'm abusing my drivetrain enough that I'm pulling a 53x27 then it's because I'm being abused by some hill and have probably tuned the racket of my drivetrain out of my oxygen deprived mind already.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:13 PM   #22
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My 1998 Trek 5500 with 9-speed Dura-Ace has never had any chainrub on the derailleur. The frame is a 56 so the chainstays are short but not as short as some. I bought the bike as a frameset and it was originally built up by my LBS. I can run it in any combination without rub on the derailleur but avoid cross-chaining anyway. There is a slight rub on the side of the big ring if I shift to the small ring and small cog. The shifters have only two positions plus soft trimming on the small lever that I've never used. The bottom bracket is Ultegra and I've used a variety of wheels and cassettes. I can't think of any reason the other Shimano groups should have more chainrub than Dura-Ace, the geometry is the same as far as I can tell. I guess I just got lucky on the chainline, I don't think it's because it's D-A.
My primary bike has Record 10 and does require some trimming, I was disappointed in that at first but I've become use to it.

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Old 10-03-06, 08:22 PM   #23
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Is rubbing determined more by the shifter or more by the derailer, or is it an even mix (or an even mix among yet other factors, like chain length)? Before reading this thread, I would have assumed mostly the derailer, but it's clear that the number of stops available for trimming depends on the shifter.
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Old 10-03-06, 08:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Dockrey
The 2006 Sora shifters do have a trim function. It details it here. It's about in the middle of the page on how to use it. This will probably fix your problem.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/cyclin...9830538833.pdf
How the heck do you get to that document on the Shimano site??
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Old 10-03-06, 09:23 PM   #25
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Is rubbing determined more by the shifter or more by the derailer, or is it an even mix (or an even mix among yet other factors, like chain length)? Before reading this thread, I would have assumed mostly the derailer, but it's clear that the number of stops available for trimming depends on the shifter.
Mostly front derailleur adjustment, assuming that the components are compatible and the chainline is correct or at least close to correct. There are chainline standards for doubles and triples and should be set correctly by the frame and component manufacturers. Chainlines are not meant to be adjustible but adjustments can be made with spacers, washers, and spindles.
Index shifting for the rear cassette is a terriffic improvement over friction shifting, but in the front I'd rather not have the clickstops, at least the way they work on a road bike. On a mountain bike there are 3 stops for 3 chainrings, and usually they work fine. With roadbikes the click stops are really not indexed to the chainrings, a double needs no clickstops, just some trimming. Shimano triples have 4 positions for 3 chainrings, Campy has a series of clickstops. I think most Campy riders count clickstops, from the big ring to the inside ring is 3 clicks, and 1 or 2 more if the chain is on the left side of the cassette. I prefer the way campy shifts in the rear but on doubles I prefer Shimano, at least D-A, in the front.

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