MrCjolsen

Background Info:

36h Alex DA22 rim
About 2000 miles
Wheel professionally trued 1 month ago. There was some "hop" that they couldn't get out, but LBS said that the tension was good and that it should stay true.

Is it normal to break spokes so much? This is the second one on this wheel.

Should the LBS fix it since they trued it only one month ago?

I've heard of "retensioning" a wheel. Does that mean basically loosening and retightening every spoke? The LBS said that's the only way to get the "hop" out of this wheel.

Is the "hop" in this wheel causing the spokes to break?

ISeeDeadHuffies

What kind of bike? What kind of spokes? Do the spokes have an N or Z stamped on the head? These spokes suck. The shop I work for has rebuilt many wheels with this brand of spoke becuase of multiple spoke failures on low mileage wheels. It is unlikely that having the wheel trued has anything to do with the spokes breaking.

Retro Grouch 

Retensioning to me involves the following:

1. I loosen every spoke until I can see one spoke thread. I do this so that I can be sure that I'm starting with all of the spokes equal.
2. I gradually build tension back into the wheel no more than 1/2 turn at a time. That way the spokes pull evenly all of the way around the rim to keep it round. Trying to do too much at a time at this stage costs more time later in the process.
3. When I get the wheel to about the tension that I think I need, I squeeze parallel pairs of spokes together hard with my hand to seat the elbows and nipples. Then I check every spoke with my tensiometer and equalize the tension on each.
4. If I'm working with a good rim it usually takes very little final trueing to make the wheel both round and true. I make all but the finest adjustments by loosening and tightening opposing pairs of spokes an equal amount.

If I'm working with basically good components the process takes nearly as long as building a new wheel from scratch. A slightly warped rim or a wheel that has already had spokes replaced can take a lot longer than building a whole new wheel. If a shop only charges you $20.00 or so, they're doing something other than what I have just described.

Al1943

"Is it normal to break spokes so much? This is the second one on this wheel."

Not really but often happens.

"Should the LBS fix it since they trued it only one month ago?"

I don't think so, I doubt that the LBS caused the hop.

"I've heard of "retensioning" a wheel. Does that mean basically loosening and retightening every spoke? The LBS said that's the only way to get the "hop" out of this wheel."

Yes, and it may mean removing the spokes and reshaping the rim if the rim is bent or bowed.

"Is the "hop" in this wheel causing the spokes to break?"

Probably, unless the hop is in the tire instead of the rim. An out-of-round rim usually means uneven spoke tension, and it's the loose spokes that will break.

Al

Dunwood

Perhaps the other posters were being polite, you didn't specify your weight. If you are 175lbs. and you are breaking spokes, something is wrong with the wheel. I'll let some of the heavier riders chime in with their weight/spoke observations.

MrCjolsen

I weight 215. I commute, so I often have a small to medium sized load on the back.

MrCjolsen

I was in Performance today, and they had a Mavic/Ultegra wheel with Wheelsmith double butted spokes for $109

BikeWise1

Open Pro or worse, no doubt. DO NOT expect a wheel built with an OP or CXP-22 to stand up to your needs. Those cheap wheels are there to get you pony up for the high-profit factory built Mavics and the like. They are selling the idea that a traditional wheel is downmarket. When built by a conscientious wheelbuilder, they are not. I don't remember ever having seen a 10 YO low-spoke-count wheel still in service...

House wheels like those sold by P or N or whomever, lack niceties such as spoke head washers. I build lots of wheels and unless you are using Dura Ace, King or DT hubs,(Phil Wood, too) your spoke holes are too big (including Ultegra at 2.6mm). They're big so that machines can more easily build them. But to avoid movement and flex at the flange, and the attendant spoke breakage, ya gotta have washers. They're fussy and time consuming which is why you never see them on mass produced wheels. Build it right-ride it for years. Get it cheap, and ride, replace, repeat...

Apologies to the person I quoted....if it's a CXP-33, you'd probably be fine. I bet it ain't, though!

MrCjolsen

Bikewise1,

The rims at Performance were Open Pro.

I never thought of it being a problem with the hub, but it makes sense. My current rims were pretty cheap, but I thought that with 36 spokes I couldn't go wrong (I was replacing a set of 32 spoke AT450's with Sora hubs at the time I bought them).

It sounds like I need a 36 hole wheel and a good hub. Interestingly, I have pretty cheap rim on the back of my fixed gear and what appears to be a pretty good high-flange hub. I've never even had to touch the wheel.

I've built a couple of wheels, but I'm no expert at the craft. I know that I can build a wheel myself and take it in to be checked and tensioned professionally. Could I rebuld my current wheel with better spokes and washers? Would that help.

TallRider

I'm not in the bike business, but I've not heard bad about Ultegra hubs before.
I'm running an Open Pro/Ultegra rear wheel built with 32 14/17/14 double-butted spokes. I weigh 180 pounds. The wheel is from Performance (bought before I knew a ton about bike stuff) but when I first put it on my truing stand this spring, it was nearly perfectly in tension, round and true.

(That said, the CXP-33 has a great rep, and the Open Pro has a good-but-not-great rep.)

MrCjolsen, you didn't say if you broke a drive-side or non-drive-side spoke. This matters. Non-drive-side spokes (which are lower tension b/c wheel dish) will usually break because of too-low tension. Drive-side spoke breakage is more rare. Too-high spoke tension can crack the rim at the spoke-nipple interface, especially with some Mavics - mainly the MA3 but the Open Pro can have problems with this too.)

HillRider

I've only heard good things about Ultegra hubs and my personal experience bears this out. I've gotten well over 30,000 miles on a pair of Ultegra hubs with only annual (about every 6000 miles) overhauls and the hubs were in excellent condition when retired for an upgrade. My son-in-law has had the same experience and I don't know of anyone who has had trouble with them unless they were dreadfully abused.

TallRider

BikeWise1's critique of Ultegra hubs seemed to center around the slightly-larger spoke-holes in the flange - 2.6mm as opposed to 2.4mm I think. I'm guessing this is specifically an issue of the past 10 years. (By which I don't concede that it's an "issue" for the bike, but that Shimano widened the spoke-holes in the flange in the past 10 years as machine-building became more common for wheels.)

It's possible that a poorly-built wheel will suffer a greater chance of spoke breakage with a hub that has 2.6mm spoke-holes as compared to a hub that has 2.4mm spoke-holes.

BikeWise1, could you clarify what you mean by building with washers? Are you referring to washters at the flange, or washers by the nipple?

Al1943

I think Open Pros are some of the best rims available, but they're not meant for heavy touring. I expect that a 36 spoke Ultegra, Open Pro wheel with double butted spokes would hold up fine under a 215 lbs rider if it is well built and if ridden on reasonably smooth roads. No way could I sell a set like that for $109.
However I would agree that CXP 33 rims would make a stronger wheel.

Al

BikeWise1

Certainly! Here's a link that shows what I'm talking about. You can click on the picture for more info.

Ultegra hubs are great. My comments were directed solely at the size of the spoke holes. Dura Ace is at 2.3mm-a nice snug washerless fit unless you are using a 1.8mm spoke, which require washers in all cases.

Oh, and CXP-33s are super tough as are the Velocity Deep Vs. Either of those with 32 holes would be fine. I've had too many problems with OPs lately. The eyelets creak, and they don't yet have an assymetric version. You can tell Mavic isn't spending a nickel of R&D money in the replacement rim department these days...

simplify

Another very important function of the spoke washers, is when you're re-using a hub that's been laced before. Even when you're careful to lace it exactly as it was before, the holes are still going to have some slop in them. By using the brass washers, you are practically creating an entirely new hole for the spoke. And, they look *fabulous*. I love them. Now if only I knew where to get some more...

MrCjolsen

They were non- drive side and broke at the head. Would giving each spoke on that side 1/4 of a turn help?

Al1943

That might help the broken spoke issue but unless you also tighten the driveside you'll be pulling the rim off center.

Al

Al1943

At least OP's have eyelets, the assymetric rims I'm familiar with don't.
My OP's have been totally quiet for several years, both sets.

Al

MrCjolsen

I asked a shop what wheel is good when strength is 20 times more important than weight to a rider. He said he'd build a 36 spoke, 3 cross Velocity Dyad rim on whatever hub I wanted.

I'm thinking of doing that with a Deore hub (I forgot to mention the bike is a Surly Crosscheck which can take MTB hubs). The cost would be about $50 more than the Open Pro / Ultegra deal at Performance.

TallRider

The Velocity Dyad will be a good rim choice for you. Deore hub would be fine; they're plenty durable if adjusted properly.

BikeWise1 and lawkd - which size washers do you use (2.5 or 2.2mm listed on the DT site)? Also, BikeWise1 - is this the sort of thing you could buy in bulk from some online store?
Thanks.

simplify

I believe that measurement refers to the size of the opening, and mine are 2.2 which is perfect for spokes that are 2.0 mm at the elbow end. For heavier spokes, like the DT Alpine that are over 2.3 mm at the elbow end, you'd need the 2.5 washers.

I'm also interested in hearing if anyone has a source for these.

willtsmith_nwi

A wheel with a hop in it is not true.

TallRider

Makes sense, thanks. I'll ask my LBS about these. Keep me posted on whether you find a source.
BikeWise1, where would you recommend finding washers?

Well, kind of. Often "true" is used to refer to side-to-side trueness, whereas "roundness" is a different axis. So a wheel that has a hop and side-to-side wobble is referred to as "out of true and out of round."
Aside from definitional squabbles, the OP meant that his wheel was side-to-side true.

BikeWise1

Actually, according to DT, the 2.2mm are intended for 1.8mm spokes, while the 2.5 are intended for 2.0mm spokes. Generally 2.3mm spokes will not require washers.

BTW, I get mine directly from DT Swiss.

TallRider

Thanks for the info. You work at or run a shop, right?
Does it make sense for individual customers to get washers directly from DT Swiss?