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  1. #1
    Senior Member digger's Avatar
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    Stampted stuff...not worth it

    I was just looking through the thread "Bikes You've Built" (Bikes you've built.) and I noticed alot of older frames which got me to thinking about a recent bike I have built.

    Back in 2002 my brother gave me his old Raleigh Super Grand Prix road frame that he bought new in the mid 80s. I THINK he paid around $400 or so back then and put quite a few kms on it. Well, I built it up into a very nice (IMO) day touring bike that I used for 2003 to 2005.

    Well, I decided I liked the frame and it fits, so last winter I decided that I was going to make some changes to the frame, drop the rear brake stay and add some water bottle bosses to the seat tube and then get it painted.

    After all that work, I brought the frame into my LBS looking for a nice headset that would fit. He told me that the bike wasn't worth the cost ($80) to have it painted, "it's just all stampted stuff" he said.

    I didn't ay anything, figuring that well, he's a jerk for one and maybe he IS right that it is not the highest quality frame as I am no expert.

    Here is a picture BEFORE I got the work done, but it's not much differant than what you see here, I was able to match the paint very closely.

    So, when this guy said it's all stampted stuff, what exactly did he mean? It's a chromoly lugged frame, at least the main triangle is chromoly, I'm not sure about the fork.
    Originally posted by Bones_McBones: Wow Digger, wow! You've earned my respect.... I know ashoposo got werked up. You are the gutter pig of Trollheim.

  2. #2
    Non Tribuo Anus Rodentum and off to the next adventure (RIP) Stacey's Avatar
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    " "it's just all stampted stuff" "


    Forged snob bastid!

  3. #3
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    He may have meant that the dropouts were stamped. It's hard to tell from here, but given the style of the fender eyelets on the dropouts, it seems a lot more likely that they were forged. Raleigh was a high-quality brand, and the Super Grand Prix, while far from top of the line, wasn't a particularly cheap bicycle either. Sounds like your mechanic doesn't know what he's talking about, and is a jerk besides.

  4. #4
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    There are two ways lugs are made. Some are stamped from sheet steel and other are investment cast. Stamped lugs are have been around forever and there is nothing wrong with them. Almost all older bike were made with stamped lugs. Investment cast lugs have a somewhat shorter history and are more expensive and are sometimes more "elegant", for what that's worth.

    You like the bike? Go for what ever upgrades you want. There is nothing wrong with the frame's construction.

  5. #5
    Broom Wagon Fodder reverborama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby
    Sounds like your mechanic doesn't know what he's talking about, and is a jerk besides.
    +1 to that.

  6. #6
    Senior Member digger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    You like the bike? Go for what ever upgrades you want. There is nothing wrong with the frame's construction.
    Yup, the bike rides real good as far as I'm concerned. Sure a tad heavy and I'm more upright, but I'm not racing on the thing and I get ALOT of comments on it, now that it is painted.

    Probably didn't need a painting as my brother certainly has taken care of it. Here are more pictures before the work done....

    So, y'all think it is somewhat a half decent frame?

    I'm gonna have to take a picture AFTER the work....once the batteries charge for my camera.

    OH! I also had a forum member Swantak make the decals for me. He did an excellent job! http://home.comcast.net/~velographic/VGhome.htm
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by digger; 10-20-06 at 12:09 PM.
    Originally posted by Bones_McBones: Wow Digger, wow! You've earned my respect.... I know ashoposo got werked up. You are the gutter pig of Trollheim.

  7. #7
    Mooninite shakeNbake's Avatar
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    I think he need an ass-stampin'

  8. #8
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    The guy's a real toolbag.

  9. #9
    Senior Member TimJ's Avatar
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    That's a cool bike. I believe that model was hi-tensile steel, so it's not fantastic or anything just material-wise, but who cares? I've got a schwinn le tour III I turned into a fixed gear and I think it's got a really sweet ride, and it's just 1020 steel.
    fun facts: Psychopaths have trouble understanding abstract concepts.
    "Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria."

  10. #10
    Senior Member
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    The bloke sounds like he was warning you off doing something that, in his opinion, was overcapitalising the bike. Stamped lugs on a bike are functional but nothing particularly exciting. It seems that there are plenty of people on this forum who take offense to the slightest thing.

  11. #11
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    If you like the bike, do what needs to be done to ride the bike. If that tool doesn't want to do the work, find another shop that will. My Barracuda has stamped dropouts, but that certainly doesn't keep me from riding the thing a whole lot.
    [CENTER][URL="http://VeloBase.com"][IMG]http://velobase.com/App_Themes/VeloBase2_blue/Images/VeloBase2TitleCampagnolo.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][URL="http://JonPFischer.com"][COLOR="#006400"]Fischer Photography[/COLOR][/URL] - [URL="http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/785462-My-new-modern-quot-Classic-quot-Kirk-JKS-Classic-Terraplane"][COLOR="#8b0000"]Kirk Frameworks JKS-Classic Build Thread[/COLOR][/URL][/CENTER]

  12. #12
    Senior Member barba's Avatar
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    I find it hard to say if the guy was a jerk. The guy was probably just trying to give you honest advice. I likely would have said something similar, but perhaps a little more diplomatically. If you like the bike, do what you like and spend what you like on it.

    Enjoy the bike. It is a nice looking frame one way or another.

  13. #13
    Sometimes knows stuff. rmfnla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HillRider
    There are two ways lugs are made. Some are stamped from sheet steel and other are investment cast. Stamped lugs are have been around forever and there is nothing wrong with them. Almost all older bike were made with stamped lugs. Investment cast lugs have a somewhat shorter history and are more expensive and are sometimes more "elegant", for what that's worth.

    You like the bike? Go for what ever upgrades you want. There is nothing wrong with the frame's construction.

    Same with the bottom bracket shell.

    The funny thing, although castings were considered the upper-end choice ("more precise", etc.) stampings actually have better fatigue resistance and will tolerate cold-setting more than their cast counterparts.

    Like the other say, all that matters is that you like it.
    Today, I believe my jurisdiction ends here...

  14. #14
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Can't remember, was Raleigh still UK-built in early '80's or was this a Raleigh America bike?

  15. #15
    cab horn
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    He told me that the bike wasn't worth the cost ($80) to have it painted, "it's just all stampted stuff" he said.
    This guy is an *******. No shred of truth to his claim anyways.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  16. #16
    Senior Member digger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanMM
    Can't remember, was Raleigh still UK-built in early '80's or was this a Raleigh America bike?

    This Raleigh has "Made In Canada" on it. I've done some research into the seriel number on the bike (RE8 03852) from what I remember this number confirms it was made in Canada. Unfortunately I cannot find that link describing the serial number but I seem to remember that the '8' meant the last digit in the year (i.e. 1988 or 1978) none of which jive with when my brother says he bought it.

    Also, one of the decals has:
    "Cr-Mo Seamless Tubing Tange 5 P.G. Main Tubes"
    So I'm thinking that only the main triangle is chromoly. But I'm not sure what the P.G means.

    Here's a picture of the finished bike. Sorry, I can't take a photograph worth a damn.
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    Originally posted by Bones_McBones: Wow Digger, wow! You've earned my respect.... I know ashoposo got werked up. You are the gutter pig of Trollheim.

  17. #17
    ride, paint, ride simplify's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmfnla
    The funny thing, although castings were considered the upper-end choice ("more precise", etc.) stampings actually have better fatigue resistance and will tolerate cold-setting more than their cast counterparts.

    Like the other say, all that matters is that you like it.
    I am SO happy to hear that. I wondered about this too, was going to post a question about exactly this point. I just finished rejuvenating a badly neglected 1982 Univega Sportour, with Tange Champion frameset (not just main tubes, apparently). It rides so nicely and feels like a quality bike, but has stamped dropouts. I really wondered if they were functionally inferior, or just not as pretty. This has helped put my mind at ease. And I do like it, that's what matters.

    To the OP--beautiful Raleigh!

    Here's a picture of my Univega.
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    No car. No TV. Three bikes.

  18. #18
    "Purgatory Central" Wino Ryder's Avatar
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    I'm in agreement with the other posters. You have a nice bike there, and is certainly deserving of all the love and attention you can give it. Its just sad that apparently, according to the moron bike shop employee, that if its not cro-moly throughout, with forged drop outs and investment cast lugs, then everything else is just junk. I find that completely unacceptable, and I've been around bikes my whole life.

  19. #19
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    That's a beautiful bike, lawkd. Speaking of Tange Champion, I'm trying to get motivated and get onto my next project, an '83 Centurion Pro Tour (Tange Champion #2)..........And yeah, don't worry about the stamped dropouts. My '83 Schwinn with a full 4130 frame has'em, I cold set it awhile back and am running an XT derailleur on the adapter claw derailleur hanger (along with a nine speed drivetrain). The cool thing is, when you cold set a frame with stamped dropouts, the dropouts actually "self-align" (up to a point) when you secure the quick release nice and tight. So if you ever find a need to cold set the Univega, you've actually got a built-in advantage. At least that's the way I like to look at it-

  20. #20
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    This Raleigh has "Made In Canada" on it. I've done some research into the seriel number on the bike (RE8 03852) from what I remember this number confirms it was made in Canada. Unfortunately I cannot find that link describing the serial number but I seem to remember that the '8' meant the last digit in the year (i.e. 1988 or 1978) none of which jive with when my brother says he bought it.

    Also, one of the decals has:
    "Cr-Mo Seamless Tubing Tange 5 P.G. Main Tubes"
    So I'm thinking that only the main triangle is chromoly. But I'm not sure what the P.G means.

    Here's a picture of the finished bike. Sorry, I can't take a photograph worth a damn.
    Post this over in C and V, or PM cudak888, he's the resident Raleigh expert over there. He'll tell you all about the bike's origins if you're interested-

  21. #21
    Senior Member
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    I'm pretty sure the "PG" means Plain Gauge, i.e. the tubes are not butted.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Upgrading bicycles seldom makes economic sense. An $80.00 powder coat job, a few new components, new cables and housings and maybe a little labor will take you a long way toward the price of a brand new bike with probably a nicer frame, all brand new components and a new bike warranty.

    What you can never buy is the satisfaction of riding a bike that you envisioned in your own mind and made happen. To guys like me, that enjoyment is well worth the price difference.

    The bike shop isn't necessarily a jerk. He's actually right from his limited point of view but he's incapable of seeing things with the artistic half of his brain. There are lots of people who are like that.

  23. #23
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch
    What you can never buy is the satisfaction of riding a bike that you envisioned in your own mind and made happen. To guys like me, that enjoyment is well worth the price difference.
    +1000.........Taking an old "basket case" bike, that you feel like is worth working on, and getting it on the road or trail again is very, very satisfying, moreso than I feel from riding a brand new bike out of a bike shop. Doing something funky with an old bike and making it road or trailworthy can sometimes be even more satisfying. That's my attitude about it, and that's not to say I don't lust after a new bike occasionally (and buy one). But if you're really into bicycling, the "cost" is often trivial when you think about the amount of satisfaction you get from your bikes.

  24. #24
    cab horn
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    This is what sheldon says on stamped vs forged:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
    A flat piece of solid metal, with a notch or slot to receive a wheel axle. There is one at the bottom of each fork blade, and another pair at the junction of the seat stays and chain stays. Lower quality fork ends are stamped from sheet metal; better ones are forged.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  25. #25
    ride, paint, ride simplify's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by well biked
    +1000.........Taking an old "basket case" bike, that you feel like is worth working on, and getting it on the road or trail again is very, very satisfying, moreso than I feel from riding a brand new bike out of a bike shop. Doing something funky with an old bike and making it road or trailworthy can sometimes be even more satisfying. That's my attitude about it, and that's not to say I don't lust after a new bike occasionally (and buy one). But if you're really into bicycling, the "cost" is often trivial when you think about the amount of satisfaction you get from your bikes.
    That is so true. Taking something that someone else gave up on, neglected, left to die--and then giving it a productive new life. That's a wonderful thing. And the payback is phenomenal, when you ride that machine that you made, and it rewards you with a sweet ride. You can't buy that.

    Thank you for the compliment on my bike! The other point in doing all the work of renovating, is to learn. My two basket cases--this Univega, and my Italian-made Bianchi, both given to me in a sadly broken down state--have been my teachers. I've enjoyed every moment of restoring them, and the cost has been minimal because I've used mainly parts that I already had, when I couldn't repair their existing parts. None of that learning and adapting is going to happen when you buy a brand new bike.
    Last edited by simplify; 10-21-06 at 03:02 PM.
    No car. No TV. Three bikes.

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