simplify

I know there are some headsets that have to have their bearing balls in a retainer, rather than loose (which is always preferable when possible). Some older Schwinns are like that for sure. But I am working on a 1993 Trek Antelope with a 1" threaded headset. Looks pretty standard, but I removed the retainers and replaced them with loose balls (filled then removed one, 25 per race, as usual), and now I can't seem to get a decent adjustment on it. There's either play, or it binds unevenly, meaning it's free in parts of the rotation but binds in others. The cups and races look remarkably good, and it was functioning just fine with the old, dirty retainer bearings in there. Is it trying to tell me that it needs those retainers?

TallRider

I can't think of any reason why a headset would require a retainer, and have never heard of such a thing. Are you sure you've got the adjustment down properly? The symptoms you report sound comparable to what I experienced when I overhauled a headset and accidentally flipped the rubber seal backwards (or upside-down, or inside-out, or whatever you want to call it).
If that's not the problem, is there any way that the cups could have gotten out-of-kilter (and might be helped if they were re-pressed) or that you used a few balls that are smaller than the others?

simplify

Nope, no seals involved, nothing out of the ordinary. Cuda2K had this problem with at least one of his old Schwinns, and it came up in some thread last year sometime. Sheldon confirmed then, that there are indeed some headsets which require a retainer to keep the bearings in the proper place. So I know there is an issue with at least some headsets, but they are an extreme minority and this one seemed so ordinary. I'll re-inspect everything and see if there's some other explanation.

San Rensho 

Sounds like you have 1 too many bearings in either the upper or lower.

TallRider

That's pretty weird that there are actually some headsets which require a retainer. The reason it seems strange is that retainers don't keep a careful hold on the locations of bearings, they just position the bearings approximately and let the cup and cone do the rest (same is true of bearing retainers in hubs and and BBs). Did the retainer, or the curvature of the bearing races, look abnormal in your headset?

I've had such symptoms in headsets before by having one too many bearings. lawkd said that she filled it up and then removed one bearing, so this is unlikely, but I've found it's easy to put too many bearings into a headset because they're small, it takes a lot of them, and you're usually sticking them into grease and can easily lose track of one or two of them if they migrate inside of the grease.

simplify

I'll try taking out another one. I counted super-carefully, three times, so I know for sure there's 25 top and bottom with easily room for one more, but I will try taking out another one.

The races looked really good, considering the neglect it had endured in years past. I know it sounds strange that the retainer could be required in some headsets, but apparently it is sometimes. This just didn't seem to be one that would need it. I will take out another bearing ball and try again. Thanks to you both!

Ed Holland

It's a long shot, but are you absolutely sure that the top and bottom races require the same size balls?

I have a Ritchey headset that had larger balls in the bottom race. Not a problem until the bike was serviced by a novice mechanic who did not pay attention. Result: headset unadjustable & unrideable. I wouldn't have minded, but I only took the bike to the shop for a new bottom bracket...

Ed

dafydd

did you check the ball size? like some of the old schwinns, the lower race may require 3/16" bearings. ritchey logic headsets are designed this way.

i'll second that some headsets simply were designed for retainers, particularly those that have an adjustable cone, rather than cup, and some of the french made/inspired headsets.

OLDYELLR

The only purpose of a retainer for the balls in a low speed bearing like a headset would be for quick assembly on the production line.

San Rensho 

You are supposed to remove TWO bearings after you fill it..

simplify

D'OH!! That must be it then, I'll get right on that. Thank you! I feel like such a noob. I had done a bunch of other ones with the "fill it and take one out" method, and they all turned out great. I guess it just depends on where the balls actually track in the race or on the cone, because you can't always tell that when you're filling that space with the balls, especially when it's full of grease.

Ed and dafydd--thank you, I did double check the ball size and I know I got that right. At least, I replaced with the same size that was in there (5/32), assuming that was right. Didn't know there were headsets that took two different sizes top and bottom! My Campy headset takes 3/16, but both top and bottom.

Thanks again everyone.

cuda2k

Good luck putting it back together. As mentioned in my PM, I had a schwinn headset that was just a real pain in the butt to put the loose balls back in without getting one wedged under the cone. I ended up taking the bike into the shop and having them replace the whole darned thing with a new Tange headset. Sold the bike a few weeks later though.

TallRider

Just for the record, I've overhauled a few old Schwinn headsets and replaced the caged bearings with new loose balls, and filled it up (without removing one, let alone two, bearings), and they turn fine and smoothly.
The reason for the (n-1) or (n-2) formula for bearings is so that the bearings don't have too much friction against each other when turning - you want some gaps between the bearings. However, I suspect that these gaps are less important for a headset, where many rotations is less the issue and you don't need to be too worried about the friction between balls wearing them out. Just my thinking off the top of my head here.

simplify

Well, the whole problem was simple operator error. When I opened it up, I was astonished to find some of the balls in the upper race out of position. Remembering the sequence of events, I had found a problem with the locknut during assembly and took it apart again to go find a replacement. At some point, the balls must have been disturbed in the (somewhat shallow) upper cup race, and two of them shifted out of place and wedged above the edge of the cone.

I'm disappointed with myself for not acting on the fact that it just didn't feel right, and opening it back up on the spot. I was under some time pressure, but that's not an excuse. It didn't feel right, and I should have just re-opened it instead of telling myself, "no, they can't possibly be out of position". I've never had a problem with a headset overhaul before, so I wanted to think this was just some quirk with this headset.

I cleaned it all up and did it over, and now it's perfect. Mea culpa.

But I have still really enjoyed and learned much from this discussion, so thanks again all.

DannoXYZ 

The issue with 1 vs. 2 bearings-removed depends upon the type of cup you're using. Be careful to fill it up at the same radius where the balls will roll. It's easy to push extra balls in and have them ride up the outside of the cup (larger radius). In which case, the race will push them back down into the proper spot and they'll pinch and bind themselves. So... remove 1 ball if you fill them up at the correct position, remove 2 ball to be safe if you're unsure where they actually roll.

I've found that working on the headsets are easiest with the bike spun upside down in the stand. Keeps the balls from rolling around and moving on you as you're installing the adjustable cup and tightening things up.