Rapid Rise Derailleur for downtube shifters?
#1
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Rapid Rise Derailleur for downtube shifters?
My bike (Surly LHT) will have Shimano Dura Ace 9 speed downtube shifters mounted on Kelly Take Offs.
The rear cassette will be an XT 11-34 and the front crankset will be Shimano Hone 175mm 44/32/22.
Exactly which Shimano XT rear derailleur should I get? Rapid Rise or not? I assume I need a long cage derailleur?
What would be a good bottom pull derailleur for the front? I heard the LX is actually a better choice for front derailleur than an XT, is that true?
Thanks!
The rear cassette will be an XT 11-34 and the front crankset will be Shimano Hone 175mm 44/32/22.
Exactly which Shimano XT rear derailleur should I get? Rapid Rise or not? I assume I need a long cage derailleur?
What would be a good bottom pull derailleur for the front? I heard the LX is actually a better choice for front derailleur than an XT, is that true?
Thanks!
#2
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Get the traditional non-rapid rise. New-old-stock XT M-750's are great derailleurs.....some dealers may still have them in stock at discount prices. If not, the newer M-751's (non-rapid) should be available. I've got 750's on my LHT and mtb.
But on the other hand, if you prefer a reverse action on your shift lever, I don't see anything wrong in using a rapid rise derailleur on your tour bike.
But on the other hand, if you prefer a reverse action on your shift lever, I don't see anything wrong in using a rapid rise derailleur on your tour bike.
Last edited by roadfix; 01-14-07 at 12:43 PM.
#3
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Shimano still make top normal (traditional) mechs, you just have to know what you're looking for. They still actually make the M750s it's just that they're pushing the low normal RR stuff more and more so you don't see the alternatives. I just bought one last week. They've just brought out a new facelifted model which I think looks crap, but nonetheless it's traditional and looks the same as the new RR version so I assume it's here to stay. See here if you're struggling to get hold of one: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...x?ModelID=9735
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OK cool. I'll definitely get the non rapid rise.
Anyone have any opinions on the XT vs. LX front derailleurs? Do they have the same rapid and non rapid setups?
Is there a specific one I should get for the LHT, or do I just use shims to fit a larger clamp?
Thanks for the help!
Anyone have any opinions on the XT vs. LX front derailleurs? Do they have the same rapid and non rapid setups?
Is there a specific one I should get for the LHT, or do I just use shims to fit a larger clamp?
Thanks for the help!
#5
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Right, there's no real difference other than price and livery between the two front mechs, LX or XT. There is no Rapid Rise nonsense to deal with either.
However, you have to be sure about which type of mech your frame will take. All the current front mechs from Shimano come with the shims for fitting to a 31.8 seat tube. You need to choose either an E-type BB (wouldn't bother) that mounts onto the BB, a top swing or a bottom swing model and where the cable is pulled from. From memory, all shimano front mechs come in dual pull so the only real choice you have is whether to go for top swing or bottom swing, which dictates where the clamp is in relation to the parallelogram. Have fun with that!
However, you have to be sure about which type of mech your frame will take. All the current front mechs from Shimano come with the shims for fitting to a 31.8 seat tube. You need to choose either an E-type BB (wouldn't bother) that mounts onto the BB, a top swing or a bottom swing model and where the cable is pulled from. From memory, all shimano front mechs come in dual pull so the only real choice you have is whether to go for top swing or bottom swing, which dictates where the clamp is in relation to the parallelogram. Have fun with that!
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Now that I think about it, since I like the look of Hone cranksets over the LX and XT, can I go for the Hone rear derailleur and front derailleur?
I'm going for an all black look for the parts on my LHT, I think matching componentry will be slick
lol, sorry for the back and forth questions.
For the Hone derailleurs, there is the option of Non SGS and SGS, which one should I get? What is SGS?
When they say Top Normal, is that the same as non rapid rise?
Man this is so confusing
I'm going for an all black look for the parts on my LHT, I think matching componentry will be slick
lol, sorry for the back and forth questions.
For the Hone derailleurs, there is the option of Non SGS and SGS, which one should I get? What is SGS?
When they say Top Normal, is that the same as non rapid rise?
Man this is so confusing
#7
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SGS is super long cage, GS is long cage. If you have a triple then get a SGS. It gives you lots more options on cassette ratios etc.
I have never even seen Hone in the flesh, but isn't the mech designed to bolt on to the rear through-axle which I'm guessing you don't have? Someone please shoot me down here if I'm wrong, I can't remember if it's the same as Saint or not.
Let me get back to you on that one. And yeah, top normal is non-RR, low normal is RR.
I have never even seen Hone in the flesh, but isn't the mech designed to bolt on to the rear through-axle which I'm guessing you don't have? Someone please shoot me down here if I'm wrong, I can't remember if it's the same as Saint or not.
Let me get back to you on that one. And yeah, top normal is non-RR, low normal is RR.
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Originally Posted by Robert_in_ca
My bike (Surly LHT) will have Shimano Dura Ace 9 speed downtube shifters mounted on Kelly Take Offs.
The rear cassette will be an XT 11-34 and the front crankset will be Shimano Hone 175mm 44/32/22.
Exactly which Shimano XT rear derailleur should I get? Rapid Rise or not? I assume I need a long cage derailleur?
The rear cassette will be an XT 11-34 and the front crankset will be Shimano Hone 175mm 44/32/22.
Exactly which Shimano XT rear derailleur should I get? Rapid Rise or not? I assume I need a long cage derailleur?
You should certainly go with the long cage version.
Sheldon "Low Normal" Brown
Code:
+-----------------------------------------+ | A ship in the harbor is safe, but | | that is not what ships are built for. | | --John A. Shedd | +-----------------------------------------+
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So the Hone is out of the question then, I can live with a silver mech
Sheldon, this is contrary to what others are saying but I do value your opinion. Why would most people pick the non rapid rise?
What are the advantages of a non rapid rise over the rapid rise and vise versa, besides the point you just made.
I can see how that would be a good thing if I did have to shift from really high to really low gear.
Sheldon, this is contrary to what others are saying but I do value your opinion. Why would most people pick the non rapid rise?
What are the advantages of a non rapid rise over the rapid rise and vise versa, besides the point you just made.
I can see how that would be a good thing if I did have to shift from really high to really low gear.
#11
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Here's why I don't like RR. Pointed for convenience, not in any particular order:
1) If you use them with conventional shifters (which is likely given Shimano's new love of DCL in the MTB range) then everything is reversed on the optical display and shift direction.
2) There is nothing wrong with conventional pull mechs, you just need to know how to set them up properly and they work brilliantly.
3) Low Normal/RR mechs are only made by Shimano. If they suddenly think, oh crap, that was a bad idea and pull the production of them, you will only be able to get low spec ones to replace XT level parts.
4) It would feel strange after years of pushing up and releasing down the cassette to suddenly have to switch your instinct to the opposite, something I wouldn't like to do at the bottom of a big climb, for example
5) All my bikes use top normal/regular pull mechs and I'm biased against RR because I just don't like the concept.
I can see how others like RR, for example if your cassette is really crudded up, it is a lot easier to release up the cassette with a spring to help you over the mud, but to be honest, I've never had a problem anyway in that regard.
Time for an advocate of RR to step in. I suggest Sheldon as he is a legend and I hate to disagree with him so fundamentally! Oh, btw, hope you're feeling lots better Sheldon, good to see you back in the thick of things.
1) If you use them with conventional shifters (which is likely given Shimano's new love of DCL in the MTB range) then everything is reversed on the optical display and shift direction.
2) There is nothing wrong with conventional pull mechs, you just need to know how to set them up properly and they work brilliantly.
3) Low Normal/RR mechs are only made by Shimano. If they suddenly think, oh crap, that was a bad idea and pull the production of them, you will only be able to get low spec ones to replace XT level parts.
4) It would feel strange after years of pushing up and releasing down the cassette to suddenly have to switch your instinct to the opposite, something I wouldn't like to do at the bottom of a big climb, for example
5) All my bikes use top normal/regular pull mechs and I'm biased against RR because I just don't like the concept.
I can see how others like RR, for example if your cassette is really crudded up, it is a lot easier to release up the cassette with a spring to help you over the mud, but to be honest, I've never had a problem anyway in that regard.
Time for an advocate of RR to step in. I suggest Sheldon as he is a legend and I hate to disagree with him so fundamentally! Oh, btw, hope you're feeling lots better Sheldon, good to see you back in the thick of things.
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Since this will be my first time using downtube shifters, I can train myself to shift either up or down for upshifting or downshifting, so that's not a major factor.
Which one works better for friction shifting? Does this matter?
If direction of shifting doesn't matter, then I think Sheldon's point does seem very valid.
Which one works better for friction shifting? Does this matter?
If direction of shifting doesn't matter, then I think Sheldon's point does seem very valid.
#13
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Hey, it's your choice, I totally agree, Sheldon makes a good point. I was just presenting the other side of the argument.
Not very well, clearly!
I wouldn't think any would be better with friction shifting, it's the same basic action just reversed, so I wouldn't factor that into the equation.
Not very well, clearly!
I wouldn't think any would be better with friction shifting, it's the same basic action just reversed, so I wouldn't factor that into the equation.
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Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
I highly recommend the low normal "RapidRise" version, it provides better downshifting, and is especially handy if you find yourself stuck in a too high gear after a sudden stop.
You should certainly go with the long cage version.
You should certainly go with the long cage version.
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Originally Posted by dbg
I mildly agree but let me just offer a potential "other side" arguement. Rapidrise means the der will be allowed to naturally fall (rise) to a lower gear when cable tension is released. This is probably easier to get into a lower gear under moderate load (starting in too high a gear). But you might find yourself needing to get into that lower gear (hill steepens) and some "wear" or "tuning" or "dirtyness" problems prevent the natural release of cable tension. With high-normal der's you can force that downshift. With low-normal (RR) der's you just have to hope the tension gets released. In racing maybe it's important to be able to force those higher grears, but in touring it might be a little more convenient to force the downshift. Also (my opinion), the everyday users being less tolerant of sticky downshifts will increase interest in equipment upgrades (the racers are already hyper sensitive and upgrade readily) and increase sales for Shimano.
Leaving out that issue, however, low-normal derailers have always downshifted better than they upshift, just as high-normal units upshift better than they downshift.
I cut my teeth on these back in the late '50s-early '60s, with the old Benelux Mark VII and Mark VIII, and it was quite noticeable that the down shifting was easier than up shifting with them.
Indeed, when I upgraded to a newfangled Hurét Alvit, it took a good deal of getting used to the then oddball high-normal shifting, and also to the fact that the Hurét (like other high-normal derailers to this day) up shifted better than it down shifted.
It's unfortunate that so many folks assume, incorrectly, that low normal (RapidRise) derailers are less reliable for down shifting, when the exact opposite is true.
I do agree that multiple bike owners shouldn't mix the two styles with the same type of shifter.
However I found it very helpful to switch my Raleigh Cadent to a low-normal derailer, since it has Shimano Ultegra STI shifting, and I had found it very confusing going back and forth between that bike and my Hetchins and Brown bikes, both of which have Campagnolo Ergo shifters.
Switching the Shimano setup to low normal made the transition between the two brifter systems much more intuitive.
Sheldon "Low Normal" Brown
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Originally Posted by Sheldon Brown
I'm guessing you haven't actually ridden with a low-normal rear derailer. The raison d'être of low-normal derailers is exactly the fact that they give better, more reliable downshifting! This is particularly so with modern Hyperglide clusters that have ramps and gates in the sprockets. If you try to muscle the derailer into a too-fast multiple shift, the ramps and gates don't work and you're more likely to have shift problems.
So you're right I have limited experience. Since you like them and I always want more reasons to experiment, I will plan use a RR rear der on my current project and ride it all next summer.
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OK thanks for the replies guys.
I have decided to take Sheldons advise and get the Low Normal"Rapid Rise" mech.
I'll just get a pre-new style Shimano XTR mech because it's black, problem solved!
Now does anyone have a NOS or Slightly used XTR SGS Low Normal Rear Derailleur for sale???
I have decided to take Sheldons advise and get the Low Normal"Rapid Rise" mech.
I'll just get a pre-new style Shimano XTR mech because it's black, problem solved!
Now does anyone have a NOS or Slightly used XTR SGS Low Normal Rear Derailleur for sale???
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I believe you're going to have the downtube shifters mounted on Kelly take-offs. With a rapid-rise the lever is on the lowest gear in the high position and on the higher gears in the high position. This means it is much easier to shift around the lower gears from the drops, which is more likely to happen than shifting around the higher gears from the drops. I changed from a non-RR to RR derailleur, and the set-up became much more ergonomically sensible and felt intuitively correect.
I think Sheldon's points are important, but I think with the take-offs this really is the most salient point to think about if you're using the take-offs.
I do have a slightly-used XT M760 SGS which I bought for my Mountain bike which didn't feel right with the shifter set-up.
I think Sheldon's points are important, but I think with the take-offs this really is the most salient point to think about if you're using the take-offs.
I do have a slightly-used XT M760 SGS which I bought for my Mountain bike which didn't feel right with the shifter set-up.
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Thanks so much eibeinaka, your pics were the reason I went with the Kelly Take offs, your reply here solidifies my choice
Do you have a list of all the parts of your LHT? And more pics of your bike?
What shifters are you using?
https://static.flickr.com/105/252416659_4a5f3e15fd_o.jpg
These are the ones I bought, they should work right?
https://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Shimano-Dura...QQcmdZViewItem
Dura Ace "9v"
That would allow triple chainring shifting on the left one right?
Do you have a list of all the parts of your LHT? And more pics of your bike?
What shifters are you using?
https://static.flickr.com/105/252416659_4a5f3e15fd_o.jpg
These are the ones I bought, they should work right?
https://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Shimano-Dura...QQcmdZViewItem
Dura Ace "9v"
That would allow triple chainring shifting on the left one right?
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Here's a couple more pictures and the build details.
https://surlyville.net/owners-31.html
Those shifters look exactly like mine. The front shifter friction is really nice, great for trimming. With the rear my mood tends to dictate whether I use friction or index!
https://surlyville.net/owners-31.html
Those shifters look exactly like mine. The front shifter friction is really nice, great for trimming. With the rear my mood tends to dictate whether I use friction or index!
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Eibeinaka, one more question if you would. Since we are running the same exact shifters and Kelly Take offs, is there anything else I need to know about this setup?
Hillrider mentioned this in a previous thread and I was wondering if I could get your input on it.
BTW, DT shifters on Kelly Take-Offs aren't particularly tricky to hook up but there are some precautions and orientation considerations. You will also need flat base plates for the shifters or have to grind the stock curved plates flat to use them.
How did you handle that?
Hillrider mentioned this in a previous thread and I was wondering if I could get your input on it.
Originally Posted by HillRider
BTW, DT shifters on Kelly Take-Offs aren't particularly tricky to hook up but there are some precautions and orientation considerations. You will also need flat base plates for the shifters or have to grind the stock curved plates flat to use them.
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I think Hillrider mentioned that the Dura-Ace 9-speed shifters come in versions that the shifter bosses are radiused or non-radiused. Some people file of the radius to fit them on the take-offs. The LBS that put my bike together fitted them over the Kelly anchor point, so radiusing isn't absolutely necessary.
It probably looks neater though.
It probably looks neater though.
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Can't say I know which way to point you. I have top normal (like usual road bike) XTR-M950 rear derailleurs on two bikes, and they're great. At the same time, I have a low-normal XTR on a 650B rando, and it's also great. The hardest shifting is the one in my head between bikes, which takes about a quarter mile to set right. All of these are being used on MTB-tourer drivetrains, cassettes from 11-13 to 30-34t.
In favor of the low normal, it is ergonomically simpler. I suppose it is nicer to have the springs loaded so that downshifting is easier, but I haven't seen so clear an advantage (but who knows, I really like that 650B, and the easy shift could be a factor.)
Either way, I can recommend the XTRs, and NOS examples can be had at very good prices. Shop the online clearances.
In favor of the low normal, it is ergonomically simpler. I suppose it is nicer to have the springs loaded so that downshifting is easier, but I haven't seen so clear an advantage (but who knows, I really like that 650B, and the easy shift could be a factor.)
Either way, I can recommend the XTRs, and NOS examples can be had at very good prices. Shop the online clearances.
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Thanks for all the replies. I found the Derailleur.
A brand new XTR RD-M960 SGS, Rapid Rise.
Got it for 85 shipped on ebay
A brand new XTR RD-M960 SGS, Rapid Rise.
Got it for 85 shipped on ebay