Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    fishologist cohophysh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    My Bikes
    Diamondback MTB; Leader 736R
    Posts
    1,200
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    index vs friction shifters/deraillers

    So I am shopping for MTB parts for my rebuild, if the item doesn't specifically say, how do I know if I am getting a friction derailler or a index? I currently have a shimano xt front derailler and am looking for shifters and rear derailler. is the xt a friction or index? sorry if this is confusing
    We cannot solve problems with the same level of consciousness that created them. A.E.

    1990 Diamond Back MTB
    2007 Leader 736R
    www.cohocyclist.blogspot.com
    http://www.loopd.com/members/cohocyclist/Default.aspx



  2. #2
    Gone, but not forgotten Sheldon Brown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Newtonville, Massachusetts
    My Bikes
    See: http://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles
    Posts
    2,301
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cohophysh
    So I am shopping for MTB parts for my rebuild, if the item doesn't specifically say, how do I know if I am getting a friction derailler or a index? I currently have a shimano xt front derailler and am looking for shifters and rear derailler. is the xt a friction or index? sorry if this is confusing
    If the derailer was made in the last 20 years, it is indexable. All indexable derailers also work with friction shifters.

    Sheldon "Easy One" Brown
    Code:
    +-----------------------------------------------------------+
    |  Oh freddled gruntbuggly                                  |
    |   thy micturations are to me                              |
    |   As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.            |
    |  Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.         |
    |  And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bind-lewurdles,  |
    |   Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my          |
    |  blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!                        |
    |                              -- Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz    |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------+
    [COLOR=blue][CENTER][b]Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts[/b]
    Phone 617-244-9772, FAX 617-244-1041
    [URL= http://harriscyclery.com] http://harriscyclery.com[/URL]
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    [URL=http://captainbike.com]http://captainbike.com[/URL]
    Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
    [URL=http://sheldonbrown.com]http://sheldonbrown.com[/URL] [/CENTER] [/COLOR]

  3. #3
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hi Mr. Brown,
    Is there a way to get a Dura Ace ax rear der into friction?
    I tried to use a DA ax rear der for a 7 or 8 speed indexed shifters but the ax rear der looks like its indexed for 6sp. I even tried disassembling the derailleur thinking I can grind those teeth from the der but now I can not even put the darn thing back to working condition. This is the part where the loaded spring goes back into the dropout bolt.

    thank you in advance for any tips...
    sincerely,
    -gas

  4. #4
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BOSTON BABY
    Posts
    6,435
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by superunleaded
    Hi Mr. Brown,
    Is there a way to get a Dura Ace ax rear der into friction?
    I tried to use a DA ax rear der for a 7 or 8 speed indexed shifters but the ax rear der looks like its indexed for 6sp. I even tried disassembling the derailleur thinking I can grind those teeth from the der but now I can not even put the darn thing back to working condition. This is the part where the loaded spring goes back into the dropout bolt.

    thank you in advance for any tips...
    sincerely,
    -gas
    Dura-Ace derailers and shifters from before 1997 or so (8-speed DA or older) use a different cable pull ratio than other indexed Shimano shifters or derailers.

    Shimano has published an alternate cable routing that allows an older DA shifter to be used with a non-DA derailer. Unfortunately, there is no solution for running things the other way around, other than getting a compatible (i.e. older DA) shifter.

  5. #5
    Gone, but not forgotten Sheldon Brown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Newtonville, Massachusetts
    My Bikes
    See: http://sheldonbrown.org/bicycles
    Posts
    2,301
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by superunleaded
    Hi Mr. Brown,
    Is there a way to get a Dura Ace ax rear der into friction?
    I tried to use a DA ax rear der for a 7 or 8 speed indexed shifters but the ax rear der looks like its indexed for 6sp. I even tried disassembling the derailleur thinking I can grind those teeth from the der but now I can not even put the darn thing back to working condition. This is the part where the loaded spring goes back into the dropout bolt.
    I don't believe that was made for indexing. The Dura-Ace AX was from the early 1980s, before the introduction of SIS.

    If you have a Dura-Ace AX derailer that's in decent condition, sell it on eBay, it is a museum piece, and belongs on a restoration project, not a "rider." Even a new $20 Tourney will work WAY better.

    Sheldon "Derailers Are Cheap" Brown
    Code:
    +--------------------------------------------------+
    |  The less you bet, the more you lose if you win  |
    |                       --Alan Rudolph (_Trixie_)  |
    +--------------------------------------------------+
    [COLOR=blue][CENTER][b]Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts[/b]
    Phone 617-244-9772, FAX 617-244-1041
    [URL= http://harriscyclery.com] http://harriscyclery.com[/URL]
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    [URL=http://captainbike.com]http://captainbike.com[/URL]
    Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
    [URL=http://sheldonbrown.com]http://sheldonbrown.com[/URL] [/CENTER] [/COLOR]

  6. #6
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The original plan was to build the bike with full AX components but after testing the shifting with the rear der, I found out that the rear der has this serrated part that makes shifting SIS like. It has postive stops for 6 speed shifting which I find annoying that's why I wanted to go friction.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BOSTON BABY
    Posts
    6,435
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by superunleaded
    The original plan was to build the bike with full AX components but after testing the shifting with the rear der, I found out that the rear der has this serrated part that makes shifting SIS like. It has postive stops for 6 speed shifting which I find annoying that's why I wanted to go friction.
    Oh, well that's completely different - I would strongly suggest that you follow Sheldon's advice. I doubt that there is any way to make the derailer work as you like without machining it to remove the offending bits. On these components, such a step would constitute a high crime. If you must, you can make it work by simply using it with a 6-speed freewheel. But Sheldon's idea is better. It'll fetch you a pretty penny if you sell it, and a brand-spanking new derailer from any of Shimano's component lines will work far better anyway.

  8. #8
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Thanks...

    I'll just throw the AX parts in a bin and wait for the next project that is suited for that kind of components. In the meantime, I decided to go to a full DA 7410 build.
    Here is the project: http://www.bikefanclub.com/gallery/s...500&ppuser=121

    -gas

  9. #9
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dallas
    My Bikes
    03 Raleigh Professional (steel)
    Posts
    6,887
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's like throwing away money.

    If you don't want the eBay hassle, please offer them on the Vintage forum. Someone would love to have them, I'm sure.


    (Or did you mean bin as in storage, not as in trash? Maybe my vocabulary has become infected with Limey disease...)
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  10. #10
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    That's like throwing away money.

    If you don't want the eBay hassle, please offer them on the Vintage forum. Someone would love to have them, I'm sure.


    (Or did you mean bin as in storage, not as in trash? Maybe my vocabulary has become infected with Limey disease...)
    I think the context here is bin as in storage...
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  11. #11
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Sorry...

    "I'll just throw the AX parts in a bin and wait for the next project that is suited for that kind of components."

    When it comes to bike parts, nothing gets thrown away. They just wait... and wait, and wait for the next appropriate build. Appropriate for me anyway.

    I got too many parts in boxes and bins that I have collected over the years. That and bikes hanging on the rafters

  12. #12
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sorry cohophysh, I didn't intend to crash your thread.
    I'll just go back to the c&v.
    Current "Inventory" or, how to fill up your garage with bikes,,,
    Last edited by superunleaded; 01-29-07 at 04:48 PM.

  13. #13
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    4,088
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just so the general principles get out there:
    Rear deraillers are not indexed. Rather, they have cable-pull ratio (how far does the cage and pulley wheels move for a given amount of cable pulled by the shifter). If this amount of cable-pull lines up with the amount of cable-pull per click/increment of an indexed shifter and the spacing of the rear sprockets that you're using, then you're in business to use indexed shifting. All Shimano rear deraillers and rear shifters built since the advent of indexed shifting are compatible (same cable-pull ratio) except for pre-9-speed Dura Ace. So a 105 rear derailler that originally came with 6-speed down-tube shifters and 6-cog freewheel will work with 9-speed cassette sprockets and 9-speed STI shifters.

    With friction shifting, you don't have these compatibility worries because there are no increments that you need to line up. Anything can be used with anything if you're running friction shifters, pretty much.

  14. #14
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    I do agree...

    But I ran on to this Dura Ace AX rear der and it is indexed. Shifter is friction but the der is indexed to 6 speed. So I'd say all rear derailleurs works with friction shifting exept for this model. I'm not sure how many different AX models came out but this particular derailleur I got is indexed. No matter how much I fine tune my friction shifting, the der guide will line up within the 6 indexed stops.
    I only have 1 AX rear der so I can not compare how the other AX works.

    Anybody out there with DA AX rear der care to chime in?
    Do your der have those positive stops that makes friction shifting annoying?

  15. #15
    fishologist cohophysh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    My Bikes
    Diamondback MTB; Leader 736R
    Posts
    1,200
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sorry cohophysh, I didn't intend to crash your thread.
    no worries
    We cannot solve problems with the same level of consciousness that created them. A.E.

    1990 Diamond Back MTB
    2007 Leader 736R
    www.cohocyclist.blogspot.com
    http://www.loopd.com/members/cohocyclist/Default.aspx



  16. #16
    High Octane superunleaded's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    My Bikes
    Calfee, Spectrum, Colnago MxL, 3RENSHO, Softride Classic, TVT, Sentinel Whisper, Centurion Comp TA, Vitus 979, 92 RB-1, 94 RB-T, RADAC, 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    By the way, indexing happens at the shifter side, except for this Dura Ace AX rear der.
    So when you buy any XT stuff, it is indexed at the shifter and the deraileurs will work with either friction or indexed shifters.

  17. #17
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    BOSTON BABY
    Posts
    6,435
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by timcupery
    Just so the general principles get out there:
    Rear deraillers are not indexed. Rather, they have cable-pull ratio (how far does the cage and pulley wheels move for a given amount of cable pulled by the shifter). If this amount of cable-pull lines up with the amount of cable-pull per click/increment of an indexed shifter and the spacing of the rear sprockets that you're using, then you're in business to use indexed shifting. All Shimano rear deraillers and rear shifters built since the advent of indexed shifting are compatible (same cable-pull ratio) except for pre-9-speed Dura Ace. So a 105 rear derailler that originally came with 6-speed down-tube shifters and 6-cog freewheel will work with 9-speed cassette sprockets and 9-speed STI shifters.

    With friction shifting, you don't have these compatibility worries because there are no increments that you need to line up. Anything can be used with anything if you're running friction shifters, pretty much.
    This is only almost always true. Earlier attempts tried to put the indexing stops in the derailer (e.g. Shimano Positron and, apparently, Dura-Ace AX). This is probably part of why they didn't work well! Otherwise, this is true.

    By the way, some will claim that the "6-speed" 105 derailer will not function properly with 9-speed equipment, supposedly due to the cage being too wide. Nonsense! I'm tempted to use my 6-speed 105 derailer with new 10-speed 105 equipment, just for laughs (and because, hey, why the heck not?). But then I come back to reality - even "cheap" 10-speed 105 is way outside of my budget!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •