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  1. #1
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    Needs complete modernization.

    Help me spend some money!
    I was an avid cyclist decades ago and enjoyed loaded touring. 25-years later, Iím getting back into it and need to modernize. Here is what I have now:
    Canondale touring frame with steel fork.
    Shimano 105 side-pull brakes.
    Old-style brake levers and exterior cables.
    27-inch Weinman rims, 48 spokes in the back, 36 in the front.
    Phil Woods hubs.
    Phil Woods bottom bracket.
    Huret Duopar titanium rear derailleur.
    Unrecalled front derailleur.
    Generic frame mounted shifters.
    Triple crank of unrecalled lineage.
    Regina 6-speed cassette.
    Shimano pedals.
    Blackburn racks.
    Fenders, because it rains on my vacations.

    Does anyone still use 27-inch wheels? The difficulty is the frame-mount for the rear wheel brake, appropriate for a 27-inch, but wrong for a 700c. Due to the Canondale frame, I couldnít use cantilever brakes, but Iím willing to replace the fork for one with mounts. The frame is not set up for internal cables, but Iíd be willing to drill if it doesnít weaken it. Iím in Germany, I donít speak the language well, and I need to tell the bike shop exactly what to order for loaded touring.

    I want to keep the frame because it doesnít flex under load. What components do I need to get, and what do you recommend? Hey Ė help me spend some money!

  2. #2
    George Krpan
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    Replace the brakes with dual pivot calipers, otherwise leave it alone. It's a rolling museum.
    A new bike doesn't have to be expensive.

  3. #3
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    The thing is a nice piece of vintage in some ways.

    That said, there's lots of different things you could do to modernize;
    First would be dual pivot brakes. I think shimano makes one without recessed mounting still. If you're pondering switching to cantelevers it will be an issue of practicality versus looks; You could very well put a Cantelever on the front with a new fork, put a dual pivot caliper in the back, and it would still stop quite nicely. Just wouldn't look very uniform.

    You say you're in germany, so I don't know how easy it will be for you to get 27 inch wheels/rims/etc. I know here in the states some things can still be ordered. I would suggest to start by looking for the rims themselves. Sun CR-18 rims are pretty nice and still available stateside in a 27 inch size.

    Tires are somewhat harder to find, although they're still made. Again, YMMV over there but statesize specialized has some decent offerings in 27 inch.

    If you want to start asking about components, i.e. drivetrain I would need more information to advise you, namely the Dropout spacing in the back. However that is going to be a LOT of preference.


    All said, It could very well be less expensive to get a new touring bike. If you're still interested in getting this one modernized let me know and I'll give some more info.

  4. #4
    Senior Member teamcompi's Avatar
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    I was in exactly the same boat as you about 6 or 7 years ago, ex long distance tourer nice bike with 27 inch rubber, etc., etc. After looking around and kicking a few tires, looking on the web for parts for the old one and just nosing around I came to the conclusion it was only a tad more money to get a bike with modern stuff rather than upgrade. Look at the old bike, how are things really, the gear now days is IMHO better and costs a lot less than it used to. I ended up buying a Cdale T-2000, no regrets.

    Welcome back to the fold best of luck, the biggest change I noticed was that now the roads seem rougher way too much reconstituted road surface.

  5. #5
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    [B]Old-style brake levers and exterior cables.
    Replace the old levers with aero-style levers, you'll improve the braking performance noticeably. Better leverage, and better ergonomics. If you get new brake pads, go with kool stops with the salmon compound, they're the best pads currently made in my opionion.........As for 27" tires, your choices are limited, and may be even more so in Germany, I don't know. But it does so happen that the best 27" tires currently made, in my opinion, are made in Germany: Continental Ultra Gatorskins, available here in 27 x 1 1/4". They're expensive, but worth it from my experience. Not sure if you could get them in that size in Germany or not-

  6. #6
    Junior Member
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    I'll crunch number before I take the plunge with a new machine - the rolling museum was top-end in it's heyday. Perhaps I was dropped on my head as a child... but where could I get 700c rims for 48 and 36 spoke wheels? What about mounting the brakes so they actually fit a 700c, as they are positioned for a 27-inch? I shall measure the dropout spacing today and be back with you on the morrow.

    As for a new machine, I really like ultra-stiff frames that don't wag with panniers front and back; that's how I came to have an aluminum frame. What is available, and what is recommended? If it's going to be new, it's going to be balls-to-the-wall best!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    [SIZE=2]but where could I get 700c rims for 48 and 36 spoke wheels?
    I don't know about Germany but I'm pretty sure that Tandem's Ltd in Alabama or Tandem's East in New Jersey will have 27" rims in 48 hole drilling.

  8. #8
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    I've found two shops with 700c rims in both 36-spoke (front wheel) and 48-spoke (rear wheel) using the search term "tandem rims". I also priced out a complete set of wheels using Phil Woods hubs and quickly determined it is far less expensive to use my current Phil Woods hubs and rebuild.

    Hah! And now, the fun begins - NOT!

    Mounting brakes to align with 700c rims. Are there adaptors on the market?

    Everyone agrees I should get dual-pivot brakes, but which model?

    And which brake levers can you suggest?

    Drivetrain issues...
    The rear dropouts have 125mm spacing. What cluster should I get?

    My triple crank is from Specialized.

    Which derailleurs should I get for smooth shifting under load?

    Which shift levers should I get?

    I need to apply the knowledge you hold, so tell me what to get and why.

  9. #9
    . blickblocks's Avatar
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    I would just get a new bike. Less headaches, better performance.

  10. #10
    cs1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    I need to apply the knowledge you hold, so tell me what to get and why.
    They already did. Get a new bike. An aluminum frame can't be spread. You are stuck with 27" Wheels that can't use anything more than 7 speed. Buy another Cannondale. It's everything you want: Aluminum, set up for touring and stiff. Good luck.

    Tim
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    1989 Raleigh Technium, 1989 Schwinn Traveler, 1986 Specialized Rockhopper
    1984 Specialized Stumpjumper, 1986 Specialized Stumpjumper and just way too many projects to list.

  11. #11
    Senior Member masi61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    I've found two shops with 700c rims in both 36-spoke (front wheel) and 48-spoke (rear wheel) using the search term "tandem rims". I also priced out a complete set of wheels using Phil Woods hubs and quickly determined it is far less expensive to use my current Phil Woods hubs and rebuild.

    Hah! And now, the fun begins - NOT!

    Mounting brakes to align with 700c rims. Are there adaptors on the market?

    Everyone agrees I should get dual-pivot brakes, but which model?

    And which brake levers can you suggest?

    Drivetrain issues...
    The rear dropouts have 125mm spacing. What cluster should I get?

    My triple crank is from Specialized.

    Which derailleurs should I get for smooth shifting under load?

    Which shift levers should I get?

    I need to apply the knowledge you hold, so tell me what to get and why.
    Hello Duffer: since you like your bike, I'm going to ignore the people who keep advising "just get a new one".

    First of all you seem to be focused on rebuilding your Phil Wood hubs into 700c rims, and then dealing with the increased drop on the calipers. You really need to mount a practice set of 700c rims in the dropouts then use a metric ruler to measure the drop in millimeters from the center of the brake bolt to the middle of the brake sidewall. Whatever this measurement is will determine the reach you need on your vintage Cannondale.

    Take a look at these Tektro calipers :
    As you can see, they are dual pivot, recessed mount and handle (a pretty generous) 57 mm reach. I bought a set of these to put on a friend's 1984 women's specific touring Cannondale that we converted to recessed mount and the result was very good. She stayed with the original wheels which in her case were a rare size (26 x 1-3/8") and the tires had to be special ordered. I actually took a cordless drill with a 6mm drill bit and enlarged the exit hole on the rear brake bridge then used a beveled washer that had its through hole enlarged - to accept the recessed brake bolt. This fix is more difficult to write about than it was in actuality - a good bike shop with some ingenuity could assist you with this. Check your front fork and see if the recessed brake bolt will fit out of the box. The 1980's Cannondale fork I mentioned was already drilled for a recessed brake mount, even though the bike came with the old-style nutted brake. Even if the fork isn't pre-drilled, all you need to do to convert to recess mount is to drill the exit (back side) hole on the fork crown, out to 6 mm. You live in Germany, so getting a metric drill bit and chucking it up in a drill will be a breeze for you .

    So, lets say you now have these Tektro 521AG long reach calipers mounted now (these brakes are made in Taiwan and I was VERY impressed by the quality contruction, with precision fit and high polished , then clear anodized finish. Back in the 1980's you couldn't get anywhere near a sweet set of brakes for that price. They have spherical bolts on the brake pad holders by the way making it possible to quickly and easily align them with the rim sidewalls (the brake pads are the new cartridge style so they're easily replaceable as well). If you have some 700c wheels with 126 mm spacing laying around, install these in your dropouts and see if the brake pads can be adjusted to fit. If they don't, that pretty much rules out converting to 700c. Tektro does make dual pivot sidepulls with an even longer reach up to like 85mm, but I would ask: If you plan to do loaded touring and want the best possible braking why would you compromise the system and over-flex you brakes when there is a better way? The better way I would suggest is to stick with the 27" rims. Lots of people are still using them. They're perfectly fast, stable, durable, and really if you stop to think about it - availability of tires is not a problem. 27 x 1-1/4" tires are perfect for loaded touring and the already mentioned Continental Ulta Gatorskins are great tires. They will be fast, long wearing , and hold up just fine to the demands of loaded touring.

    You asked about aero brake levers: you could get some new old stock Shimano 105's or Ultegras off ebay pretty cheap or get some brand new ones such as these:
    or get the Cane Creek ones, I've heard they're nice too.

    You've already got the Huret Duopar rear derailleur which is friction only so you can run just about any 5 or 6 speed freewheel in friction mode. Why not just clean up the freewheel you've got and try that one for a while? For increased convenience you could swap out the shifters, rear derailleur and freewheel for something Shimano SIS index compatible, it will work better with less fuss. You'll have to swap out the Vintage Duopar though and the bike might lose some of its soul - if you're into that MOJO kind of nonsense. I personally had a Duopar ECO on my touring bike for many years that I used with a wide range Regina Oro 6 speed freewheel that I was real proud of, but It just got too finicky and I longed for indexing so I'm now using Shimano 7 speed downtube SIS levers with Deore LX rear derailleur on one bike, and Superbe Pro accushift 7 speed index with SunTour X-1 MTB rear derailleur combined with a Suntour Winner 7 freewheel. Both of these setups work better than the original friction set up. You can acquire a awful lot of clever parts choices from ebay if you start familiarizing yourself with what you need. It doesn't have to cost a lot of money. Older Deore LX derailleurs are cheap- but they're also high quality and work great.

    Both the Shifting systems I mentioned will shift much smoother under load than what you're currently using. You could sell the Duopar Titanium on ebay and get enough money for it to finance that better, newer stuff you'll need.

    Specialized triples cranks are nice. You should be able to clean it up and use it as is, unless the chainrings are completely worn out. If you decide to go all out on a Shimano SIS drivetrain, I'll just mention that the Ultegra 6503 9-speed triple crankset is still available, is backward compatible for 6 speed and is hard to beat. The Octalink bottom bracket you buy separately. The crank and bottom bracket are quite stiff, the chainrings are ramped and pinned and will shift a little better than the Specialized and if you get the matching 6503 Ultegra triple front derailleur (most likely for a 31.8mm clamp) you'll be very pleased with the performance. These items aren't cheap but sometimes you can find them on sale since they're already one generation obsolete. The other advantage to this, is that by modernizing the front part of your drivetrain, if you modernize the back part to Shimano 7 speed, now you can upgrade to Sora 7 x 3 integrated brake/shift levers. You can still get these, and I don't know about Euro pricing but in USA they're ~ $125. A good value if you ask me. The other nice thing about these is they let you keep your frame pristine as is, since the 7 speed freewheel or cassette can be installed onto the 126mm rear triangle with no modifications except for maybe a 1mm or 2mm spacer on the drive side - worst case scenario.

    Sorry for blabbering on. I guess you get to suffer from my first cup of coffee, its my day off, and what type of mischief will I get into today - type - tangent
    Last edited by masi61; 02-12-07 at 07:25 AM.

  12. #12
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    I've found two shops with 700c rims in both 36-spoke (front wheel) and 48-spoke (rear wheel) using the search term "tandem rims". I also priced out a complete set of wheels using Phil Woods hubs and quickly determined it is far less expensive to use my current Phil Woods hubs and rebuild.

    Hah! And now, the fun begins - NOT!

    Mounting brakes to align with 700c rims. Are there adaptors on the market?
    You need to look around for some long reach calipers. Harris Cyclery has examples but you'll need to find a shop near you that can order them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    Everyone agrees I should get dual-pivot brakes, but which model?
    See the Harris site for ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    And which brake levers can you suggest?
    I'm not sure I'd change the levers. While aero levers look cleaner, it's only looks. If you wanted to go with STI, then you'd be looking at aero levers anyway. But if you keep your current shifters why mess with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    Drivetrain issues...
    The rear dropouts have 125mm spacing. What cluster should I get?
    If you go with another wheelset, you could easily put a 130 mm road hub in there. You can't cold set the frame but your frame has enough flex for a 5mm wider hub. It wouldn't be as easy to remove and replace the wheel but it's not impossible. You can't (or at least shouldn't) go with a 135mm hub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    My triple crank is from Specialized.
    Keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    Which derailleurs should I get for smooth shifting under load?
    Do the current derailers have problems? If they shift smoothly, why not just keep them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    Which shift levers should I get?
    Depends on whether you want bar-ends, STI, index, etc. You could just go with barends and keep them in friction mode. Or stay with down tubes.

    In reality, with all the stuff this bike has on it - Phil hubs, high spoke count wheels, etc, you'd be hard pressed to get the same for less than $3000 or $4000 today. I know, because I've build one that's very similar...ouch! There are still suppliers of 27" tires out there, so, for the cost of a some new tires, why not just put the bike on the road as is. When stuff wears out look at replacing it or getting a new bike. New bikes are great and there's been lots of really good improvements in the last 20 years but this one still has lots of life left in it.
    Stuart Black
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  13. #13
    Senior Member masi61's Avatar
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    Any chance you could post up some pictures of your bike so folks can get a better idea of what you're talking about?
    Thanks.

  14. #14
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute
    I'm not sure I'd change the levers. While aero levers look cleaner, it's only looks.
    It's not just looks, there really is a functional difference, particularly when braking from the hoods. Personally, I brake from the hoods a lot, and to me the difference is so noticeable in both braking power and comfort that I think it's about the cheapest, easiest brake upgrade you can make that actually does anything to improve braking performance. You may disagree, but I think most folks who've used both types of levers think it's a good upgrade if looking at it from a purely functional standpoint. Sheldon agrees, there's some info on his site under "aero levers" where he explains in more detail.............Shimano makes some nice aero levers, and the Cane Creek SCR-5's (made by Tektro) are excellent also-
    Last edited by well biked; 02-12-07 at 08:57 AM.

  15. #15
    cab horn
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    You guys realize that you'll be pretty much have enough parts, save the frame and fork to build a new bike once the OP "modernizes" his bike.

    This is not very cost effective.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  16. #16
    biked well well biked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator
    You guys realize that you'll be pretty much have enough parts, save the frame and fork to build a new bike once the OP "modernizes" his bike.

    This is not very cost effective.
    Bold print, at the top of the OP: "Help me spend some money!"

  17. #17
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by well biked
    It's not just looks, there really is a functional difference, particularly when braking from the hoods. Personally, I brake from the hoods a lot, and to me the difference is so noticeable in both braking power and comfort that I think it's about the cheapest, easiest brake upgrade you can make that actually does anything to improve braking performance. You may disagree, but I think most folks who've used both types of levers think it's a good upgrade if looking at it from a purely functional standpoint. Sheldon agrees, there's some info on his site under "aero levers" where he explains in more detail.............Shimano makes some nice aero levers, and the Cane Creek SCR-5's (made by Tektro) are excellent also-
    I've use both and, honestly, I can't tell the difference. I've always braked from the hoods and never had a problem. I even have a tandem with the old style levers (and no drum brake) that I brake that way. As far as I can tell, all my bikes stop in about the same amount of distance and with the same effort. From the standpoint of upgrades and value, I'd be pretty far down on my list.
    Stuart Black
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  18. #18
    Your mom
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    I feel like there's a difference bewteen aero and non-. I think the pivot is higher under your palm on the aero, giving you moe leverage from the hood. Braking from the top on non-aero has been frightening for me.

  19. #19
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    The input and comments have been fantastic! Thanks!

    The Huret Duopar was a tremendous improvement over the previous derailleurs I owned, but it still had issues when shifting on a climb. The Deore line came out the next year and it seemed even better, but it drew criticisms from the local mechanics, "Hey! A derailleur with built-in slop!" He ate his words within a few months.

    Smooth shifting under load was elusive in 1980, but I saw much better designs on the road as time passed. Lets go forward and build my bike to be the best it can with what we've got to work with.

    Is there a Shimano, Sram, or Campy system known for the smoothest shifting?

    With a 126mm dropout, what cluster should I use to enhance shifting performance?

  20. #20
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer
    The input and comments have been fantastic! Thanks!

    The Huret Duopar was a tremendous improvement over the previous derailleurs I owned, but it still had issues when shifting on a climb. The Deore line came out the next year and it seemed even better, but it drew criticisms from the local mechanics, "Hey! A derailleur with built-in slop!" He ate his words within a few months.

    Smooth shifting under load was elusive in 1980, but I saw much better designs on the road as time passed. Lets go forward and build my bike to be the best it can with what we've got to work with.

    Is there a Shimano, Sram, or Campy system known for the smoothest shifting?

    With a 126mm dropout, what cluster should I use to enhance shifting performance?
    Okay, let's start with the front wheel. Assuming that you can find the brakes to go from a 27" to a 700C, I'd build (or have built) wheels around the Phil hub. No need to change it since it's as good or better than anything you could get now.

    Crankset: same. There are better ones out there but you don't really need them unless this one has something wrong with it. And your bottom bracket is better than anything around...save another Phil

    Shifters: Go to a Shimano barend shifter (Campy makes one but I'm not familiar with it) and set it to friction mode. If you want index (and STI) you could hunt around for a 7 speed system, there are some out there.

    Derailer: A Shimano Tiagra is, in my opinion, one of the best wide range front derailers out there. It's wider than the higher end ones...at least it rubs less than my Ultegra. If you have to change the front derailer, go that route...although I'd try the old one before I changed over. For the rear, use a Shimano, either Deore or XT (make sure you get the high normal version, JensonUSA has them for $50). It's a good derailer and will be solid compared to the Huret.

    Rear wheel/freewheel: Personally, I'd just keep it like it is, which is why I suggested friction for the shifters. The Phil hub is a great hub and will last forever. Sure you don't have 8 cogs to choose from in the back but you're really not missing much. A new cassette ready Phil hub will set you back nearly $300 If you can't find 27" tires, find a 48 spoker rim and rebuild the bike with a 700C rim.

    You could probably get a 7 speed freewheel in there if you really want more gears. Look at Harris Cyclery for them. I'd use the Shimano 7 speed Mega range, personally. It will shift almost like a cassette...crisp and clean...with a really good range of gears.

    For the brake levers and other stuff, that's up to you
    Stuart Black
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    Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
    Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
    Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
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