Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Warning: Aftermarket steel fork failure (from Hawley USA)



    The progress of my '78 Guerciotti buildup was slowed (and a goregous Cinelli 1E stem ruined - *crying*) due to the steerer tube splitting on a POS aftermarket fork I was using.

    Here's the complete post - no sense in wasting space by double-posting it in its entirety:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post4334209

    -Kurt

  2. #2
    The Red Lantern Rev.Chuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    5,967
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Those threads run WAY down that fork. Was it hand threaded past the factory threads? That can make one fail.
    Are you a registered member? Why not? click here to register. Its free, and only takes 27 seconds!
    Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.

    I am in the woods and I have gone crazy.

  3. #3
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev.Chuck
    Those threads run WAY down that fork. Was it hand threaded past the factory threads? That can make one fail.
    Factory threads, and a factory groove for the washer. One of those aftermarket replacement forks. Take a look at the thickness of the groove area - where it split - in this photo:



    Ridiculous. Had I seen it eariler, I would have definitely determined it as being a potential failure zone.

    Take care,

    -Kurt

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    58
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The fork was the wrong size for the frame. You can't have the wedge in the threaded portion of a fork,
    groove or not. I have used this same fork from Hawley and other suppliers with no problem. It comes in
    different lenths. Yours was to short. I'm starting to see this problem more as threaded forks become
    scarce. This is a very dangerous goof. Hope you didn't crash.

  5. #5
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by adababy12
    The fork was the wrong size for the frame. You can't have the wedge in the threaded portion of a fork,
    groove or not. I have used this same fork from Hawley and other suppliers with no problem. It comes in
    different lenths. Yours was to short. I'm starting to see this problem more as threaded forks become
    scarce. This is a very dangerous goof. Hope you didn't crash.
    Then, may I ask you, why does it come with nearly 5-6" of threading...and in one steerer length only? I'm not too keen on putting the expander in the threaded portion, but in this case, it was nessesary.

    Take care,

    -Kurt

  6. #6
    cab horn
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    My Bikes
    1987 Bianchi Campione
    Posts
    28,295
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You didn't have to use that fork... ? Unless there's some other reason i'm missing.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  7. #7
    The Improbable Bulk Little Darwin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Wilkes-Barre, PA
    My Bikes
    Many
    Posts
    7,428
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think Kurt's concern is that if a wedge shouldn't be used on the threaded portion of the steerer (and we seem to all agree on that) then a manufacturer shouldn't sell a fork with threads so far down that no stem could ever reach past the threads.

    I sure hope that it was the marketers and not the engineers that decided that threading and notching a steerer that far was a good idea.
    Slow Ride Cyclists of NEPA

    People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character.
    - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #8
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    4,097
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Darwin
    I think Kurt's concern is that if a wedge shouldn't be used on the threaded portion of the steerer (and we seem to all agree on that) then a manufacturer shouldn't sell a fork with threads so far down that no stem could ever reach past the threads.

    I sure hope that it was the marketers and not the engineers that decided that threading and notching a steerer that far was a good idea.
    +1...

  9. #9
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by operator
    You didn't have to use that fork... ? Unless there's some other reason i'm missing.
    Good, then find me an all-chrome, 700C, threaded 1" fork with a steerer tube length of no less then 222mm, either English or Italian threading. No unicrowns - only sloping (Cinelli style) or lugged.

    Better yet, a Guerciotti fork with the same specifications.

    -Kurt

  10. #10
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Darwin
    I think Kurt's concern is that if a wedge shouldn't be used on the threaded portion of the steerer (and we seem to all agree on that) then a manufacturer shouldn't sell a fork with threads so far down that no stem could ever reach past the threads.

    I sure hope that it was the marketers and not the engineers that decided that threading and notching a steerer that far was a good idea.
    Exactly.

    Incedentally, there ARE two steerer lengths available to Hawley's FORK 1133, I've found. One is 250mm, the other 100mm. I needed 222mm of steerer. Guess which one I picked!

    I ask those who say a stem must be inserted below the threaded section to explain how that is to be achieved on the following forks, if cut down minimally (which will be the case for many frames):





    There are others out there - just can't find photos of them at the moment.

    Take care,

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 05-01-07 at 11:25 AM.

  11. #11
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And a photo of the same fork that failed on me - same steerer length too.

    Don't tell me that the vast excess of threads on top are there to be specifically to be whacked off to the last two inches during fitting...and that the remainder is just for looks.



    -Kurt

  12. #12
    so much for physics humble_biker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    over there
    My Bikes
    Scott CR1 team, Fuji track pro, NYCbike, Cannondale, Free Spirit, GT Edge
    Posts
    562
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    common sense and patience goes a long ways. If you're building a classic take the time to find the right fork.

  13. #13
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Saratoga, CA
    Posts
    11,507
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    And a photo of the same fork that failed on me - same steerer length too.

    Don't tell me that the vast excess of threads on top are there to be specifically to be whacked off to the last two inches during fitting...and that the remainder is just for looks.
    You have to distinguish that there's a difference between optimum design/engineering vs. convenience. From a design perspective, all the previous guys are right in that you shouldn't have any more threads than necessary to adjust & tighten the headset; about 1/2-3/4" is all that's needed. There are many suppliers that stock chromed steel forks with sloping/lugged crown in a variety of steerer lengths. It's often the retailer that messes up by buying and stocking just one fork with a super-long steerer and then threading it way down.

    Additionally, you never ever want the groove for the keyed washer. Besides the strength issue, they key in the washer will actually bind and hang up on the edge of the groove and prevent you from properly tightening down the locknut. So even with a grooved fork, always use a round washer and use two headset wrenches. Unscrew the adjustable cup UP into the locknut that you're turning DOWN.

    And using a stem with a diagonal wedge results in much better grip for any given bolt-tension compared to the expander types. The smooth finish on those require an awful lot of force to keep the bars from rotating and can result in broken forks like you've experienced.

  14. #14
    The mods changed this... damocles1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quit dicking around and get one built...

  15. #15
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by humble_biker
    common sense and patience goes a long ways. If you're building a classic take the time to find the right fork.
    It is easy to be smart and say that. Try saying that after searching 6+ months for said fork.


    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    You have to distinguish that there's a difference between optimum design/engineering vs. convenience.
    That I understand - but it is inexcusable for the design be manufactured in such a way to immidiately fail, even though the product is designed in such a way as to be used in such a fashion to allow the stem to bind at the threaded area.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    There are many suppliers that stock chromed steel forks with sloping/lugged crown in a variety of steerer lengths. It's often the retailer that messes up by buying and stocking just one fork with a super-long steerer and then threading it way down.
    Show me others that supply a similar sloping or lugged crown 700C fork with the proper steerer length for my machine - I am ready to purchase one immidiately.

    For the record, the retailer had nothing to do with the threading of this fork. Hawley USA supplies the 250mm variant threaded as shown in the last photo above - with at least 5-6" of threading.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    Additionally, you never ever want the groove for the keyed washer. Besides the strength issue, they key in the washer will actually bind and hang up on the edge of the groove and prevent you from properly tightening down the locknut. So even with a grooved fork, always use a round washer and use two headset wrenches. Unscrew the adjustable cup UP into the locknut that you're turning DOWN.
    Finally - someone who admits that these washers are useless. You have essentially described how I tighten my headsets. I've had many washers that also wear their own tab away against the sharp threads, and begin to spin around on the steerer. Makes it a PITA to get them off if you ever need to pull the fork though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    And using a stem with a diagonal wedge results in much better grip for any given bolt-tension compared to the expander types. The smooth finish on those require an awful lot of force to keep the bars from rotating and can result in broken forks like you've experienced.
    Maybe so, but I can guarentee you that I won't use anything other then a Cinelli or ITM stem from the period. Thousands of them held up for racers back in the '70s and '80s (AVA excluded), no reason why they shouldn't hold up today. They may not be as efficent as the wedge stems, but they are sufficent.

    -Kurt

  16. #16
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by damocles1
    Quit dicking around and get one built...
    Fine, just send me over the $250 in cash or so, and I'll do so.

    -Kurt

  17. #17
    so much for physics humble_biker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    over there
    My Bikes
    Scott CR1 team, Fuji track pro, NYCbike, Cannondale, Free Spirit, GT Edge
    Posts
    562
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888
    It is easy to be smart and say that. Try saying that after searching 6+ months for said fork.
    Kurt
    Okay here goes pay close attention: Be patient and use the right fork when it comes along.
    You're a wee bit too confrontational for me Kurt. Good luck to you.

  18. #18
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Southern Florida
    My Bikes
    http://www.theheadbadge.com
    Posts
    22,730
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by humble_biker
    Okay here goes pay close attention: Be patient and use the right fork when it comes along.
    You're a wee bit too confrontational for me Kurt. Good luck to you.
    Definitely, but one must realize that if after presenting a simple finding, a whole forum seemingly gangs up against you, one does become just a bit defensive

    Thanks for the well wishes on finding the fork - keep your fingers crossed for me.

    Take care,

    -Kurt
    Last edited by cudak888; 05-04-07 at 11:15 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •