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  1. #1
    Technically Canadian Neccros's Avatar
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    New Frrame/Integrated Headset

    Hi,

    Just got a new frame with an integrated headset and when I stick the bearings into the frame, the lower bearing sinks about 1/16" BELOW the edge of the head tube and when I stick the bearing into the top, its sticks ABOVE the headtube approx 1/16".... with the fork installed and the top cap slid on with the crown race and no additional spacers I get approx 1-2mm gap between the top of the headtube and the top cap....

    Is this normal??

    Thanks,

    Brian
    Cant we all just ride along???

  2. #2
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    No -- sounds like bearings are too large or not seated correctly. The only arguable advantage (and it's very arguable) of integrated is the aesthetic, so you wouldn't see exposed bearings. Do you still have the ability to return the frame? If so, take a look at this article from Chris King's website about why the integrated headset is an inherently flawed design: http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/Int%20...0Explained.pdf

  3. #3
    Technically Canadian Neccros's Avatar
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    well I cant control what the frame companies use so Im stuck.... I just need to know if the way the bearings sit now is normal or not..... and no the bearings arent too large and the are seated fine....
    Cant we all just ride along???

  4. #4
    A little North of Hell
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    I don't know if you have Cane Creek,FSA, or Campy.
    Cane Creek recommends at least 0.5mm between top cap and the frame.
    I had to add some micro shims to my Cane Creek. Running about 1-2mm gap.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  5. #5
    * vpiuva's Avatar
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    Did the headset come with the frame or did you buy it separately. There are a couple different standards and it sounds like maybe yours is the mixed one with different contact angles upper and lower (36/45 degrees)

  6. #6
    Technically Canadian Neccros's Avatar
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    Its a Leader Bike 730R frame and I bought a Cane Creek Solos headset.... its the same standard
    Cant we all just ride along???

  7. #7
    * vpiuva's Avatar
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    The Cane Creek uses two different bearings, one has the 36 degree contact area, the other has a 45 degree contact. If you install them backwards then you will run into height issues (among other things)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ginsoakedboy
    No -- sounds like bearings are too large or not seated correctly. The only arguable advantage (and it's very arguable) of integrated is the aesthetic, so you wouldn't see exposed bearings. Do you still have the ability to return the frame? If so, take a look at this article from Chris King's website about why the integrated headset is an inherently flawed design: http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/Int%20...0Explained.pdf
    That's not exactly correct. Another advantage of integrated headsets is being able to just drop bearings into the headtube (after greasing, of course), and not having to press (or pound, as the case may be) in headset cups. Chris King's claim that the bearings on integrated headsets wear out faster is, in my experience, incorrect; my integrated headset has lasted over two years with no maintenance, while every Cane Creek traditional headset I've used has simply not lasted. A second advantage could be that, in many cases, the reduced stack height of integrated headsets (over the typical, traditional headset) is preferable to some who would rather not run spacers. Perhaps this is an issue of aesthetics, but one should bear in mind that aesthetics aren't just something to sneez at; indeed, almost everything tries to appeal to a certain aesthetic, and headset systems are no different.

    Also, before just writing off integrated systems by putting all your faith in Chris King , remember that Chris King isn't a charity organization, it's a business. What kind of products does Chris King sell? Headsets that aren't integrated; of course, any business knows that it's not exactly good policy to promote products that the competitors make (and that your business does not). At the end of the article, Chris King claims that the person reading the article ought to forward the PDF file to everyone they know, lest the consumer be left with only one headset option (here, the integrated system is being alluded to); forgive me if I'm a cynic, but would someone please remind me what headset system has been the "standard" in the industry for decades? What system would therefore be threatened by other, new systems? What kind of system does Chris King make money off of? This plea to the consumer is hardly a matter of philanthropy, and much more so a plea to the consumer to not let Chris King go out of business by making a headset that might be (dare I say?) on its way out?

    I'm not writing off traditional headsets at all; they work quite well, and the test of time proves so. However, to write off a new system based on an article by a rival headset system manufacturer is simply narrow-minded in my book.

  9. #9
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    Oh, and to answer the OP's question: yes, in some cases, this is normal. Just as everything has always been, certain manufacturers do things differently than others; the depth at which integrated headset cups "races" are set into the headtube varies. If I were you, I would double check (and then check once more, for certainty) with the shop you bought the frame and headset from to make sure that you did purchase the right headset for the frame; if you did, make certain that you're using the top "cup" and the bottom "cup" in their proper places (again, the shop should be able to sort this out for you if you aren't mechanically inclined). If you did these things and everything checks out okay, then it's likely to be a matter of the manufacturer taking just a wee bit too much off the top of the headtube. If it bothers you, contact the manufacturer and see if you can exchange the frame for another of the same model. If not, it's likely safe to run the setup as it is in any case. Any jitters you have about the situation can probably be cleared up by contacting the manufacturer to verify that it is safe to run.

  10. #10
    A little North of Hell
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    Cane Creek standard

    Quote Originally Posted by vpiuva
    The Cane Creek uses two different bearings, one has the 36 degree contact area, the other has a 45 degree contact. If you install them backwards then you will run into height issues (among other things)
    Some Aheadset/Cane Creek Zero Stack headsets use 36/36 bearings.

    Aheadset/Cane Creek IS headsets use 36/45 bearings.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavic
    That's not exactly correct. . . Chris King's claim that the bearings on integrated headsets wear out faster is, in my experience, incorrect; my integrated headset has lasted over two years with no maintenance, . . . one should bear in mind that aesthetics aren't just something to sneez at. . . However, to write off a new system based on an article by a rival headset system manufacturer is simply narrow-minded in my book.
    Gee -- thanks for the sermon, oh wise one. Hope you didn't get hurt patting yourself on the back thinking you are the only one capable of critical thinking. I'm quite aware of what CK and his company do to earn their money, and the self-interest motivation they might have because of it. But if you read the article and try to understand it for what it says (instead of just dismissing it because it is written by a company that has made its name producing very fine -- if somewhat overpriced and overhyped -- traditional headsets), you will see that the reasoning is sound. Do you suppose that, if the CK company saw some merit in the technology, it might just introduce a line of integrated headsets rather than trying to point out the folly of the design? My "writing off" of the integrated headset isn't based on a "narrow-minded" acceptance of the article, it is based on the engineering involved -- the article was just a reference to explain the problem to the poster, and possibly save him some money if he was still in a position to return the frame. This is a flawed design, and just because you haven't yet seen the problems in your bike after just two years, doesn't mean it isn't. In fact, to overlook the problem just because you haven't yet experienced it yourself after just two years, "is simply narrow-minded in my book." As these frames age, history will bear out. And yes, aesthetics is something to "sneez" at, where people are investing in expensive bikes that emphasize form over function.

  12. #12
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    Sorry that I bruised your ego?

  13. #13
    * vpiuva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler
    Some Aheadset/Cane Creek Zero Stack headsets use 36/36 bearings.

    Aheadset/Cane Creek IS headsets use 36/45 bearings.
    He bought the Solos which is an IS

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