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  1. #1
    Bottecchia fan
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    Right way to pack a hub??

    I have two hubs, both Campy Nuovo Tipos. One a front one I purchase from eBay the other a rear that's from my old bike from way back in the day. I inspected the front hub when I got it and everything seems to be in order: cones, bearings and races are all in great shape. It has a very light coating of standard brown grease. When I hold it by the axle and spin the hub (no rim attached yet) it spins very freely. The rear has brand new cones and bearings and is generously packed with white teflon grease. Since I put it together myself I'm naturally a bit concerned that when I spin the hub the same way as the front one, it only makes 2 -3 turns and stops. It seems very smooth and I currently have it adjusted with just a tiny bit of play so I know it isn't too tight. The main difference between the front and rear seems to be the grease: a little bit of standard brown grease vs. a lot of the white grease. Could I be using too much grease? Or is that perfectly normal. Should the front hub have more grease? In the grander scheme of things, I doubt that friction from the grease would matter much but it certainly might if yolu are just spinnng a bear hub. Can you folks give me some pointers? Thanks.

    -Derrick

  2. #2
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    One of the jobs I do in my machine shop is precision spindle bearings. I consider Campy hubs to be precision.
    Some hub sets I have are 40yrs old. I never had any problem with the 6 sets I have. I do use quality grease and use a small amount, just enough to keep the balls in the races for assembly. I still have an unopened can of Campy grease, but I find ultra filtered special greases far better.
    Now I am using Exxon Andock, rediculously spendy. However Kluber Isoflex is very good.
    These greases are for the most severe duty on bearing assemblys simular to the campy style angular contact bearings. Regular cheap grease has contaminates that will dull the balls and races over time, where with the ultra filtered greases the components remain bright like new.
    I know I suffer from excessive compulsive disorder!
    http://www.precisionspindle.com/grease.htm

  3. #3
    steel riding houseman
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    I just repacked an old Campy hub with some Pedros. Should I really clean it all out again and use one of the these super-filtered greases? How quickly would I start to notice the deterioration?

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    To the OP: It spins with no rim attached? That seems to suggest it's using a really light (low-viscosity) grease. The ideal grease viscosity will depend on operating conditions and intended use. If you'll be doing a lot of riding with no intention of repacking the hub for a few months, it may be a good idea to go with a heavier grease.
    If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution.
    -- Robert Sewell

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsdg View Post
    To the OP: It spins with no rim attached? That seems to suggest it's using a really light (low-viscosity) grease. The ideal grease viscosity will depend on operating conditions and intended use. If you'll be doing a lot of riding with no intention of repacking the hub for a few months, it may be a good idea to go with a heavier grease.
    Yeah, the front hub that spins freely has just a very, very light coating of grease, just enough to put a thin coat on everything. I should probably repack that one.

  6. #6
    coffeeeeee p4nh4ndle's Avatar
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    in practice you can't over-pack a hub with grease. Any extra will find its way out past the "seals" as soon as you start riding it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    Regular cheap grease has contaminates that will dull the balls and races over time, where with the ultra filtered greases the components remain bright like new.
    http://www.precisionspindle.com/grease.htm
    Do you have an authoritative reference on this? Not necessarily doubting you, but it just runs contrary to everything I've ever read. And, never noticed bearings getting dull with grease, even 10+ year old bearings.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    Now I am using Exxon Andock, rediculously spendy. However Kluber Isoflex is very good.
    These greases are for the most severe duty on bearing assemblys simular to the campy style angular contact bearings. Regular cheap grease has contaminates that will dull the balls and races over time, where with the ultra filtered greases the components remain bright like new.
    I know I suffer from excessive compulsive disorder!
    http://www.precisionspindle.com/grease.htm
    HD, that is a beautiful Singer you have, but *gasp* how can you sleep at night without hoods for the Campy brake levers!!! Have you found some yet?

    Now back to grease...I don't doubt what you say about grease qualities at all, but I have often wondered, where do us civilians get such quality greases in quantities appropriate for our uses without turning cartwheels and dancing with hula-hoops? Admittedly I haven't yet searched for Kluber Isoflex, but is this grease available at industrial supply houses like MSC or McMasters?

    I'd add that it is always better to buy grease in tubes or cartridges. No matter the quality of the grease or your work methods, it is bound to get contaminated in a tub. Also, over the years I've come to think like what HDFACTORYCERTIF says about using just enough grease. I used to pack it full till it oozed it (as it eventually will) and then wiped it off. One day I realised that in the act of wiping off the excess, I would actually force in a small amount of contaminated grease. I've been too lazy to document this as fact by opening up my hubs, headsets, or bottom brackets so I'll just go to bed believing my own theories.

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    Ya, those campy brake hoods rotted off years ago and its one of those things I seem to never get around too.
    The grease quality issue is maybe not all that important with most bicycle applications, but I think its good to use with the high end components.
    Since the old Campy hubs have shields instead of true seals, it is good to service them often, rather than filling up with grease and never looking at them for 20 yrs.
    The high quality greases can be had at bearing houses such as Kaman, Applied technology or whatever is in your area, 30cc tubes are available.
    The testing of grease is extensive in the defense and industrial buisness. The precision angular contact bearings use for silent running in submarines to machine tool spindles has brought about much improved lubrication.
    The Campagnolo smoothness in their hubs was the reason I purchased them over 30yrs ago. I consider them precision.
    There is gobs of documentation on lubricants such as this in the defense industry.
    http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb...fier=ADA467746

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    There is gobs of documentation on lubricants such as this in the defense industry.
    http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb...fier=ADA467746
    Thanks, but do you have any free authoritative references to back up your assertions? That link may or may not back up your claim, but you can't expect us to pay for it, can you?

  11. #11
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    As to amount of grease, you need enough to prevent entry of water. If you don't have a continuous seal then water will contaminate the grease, and once the grease is watered down dirt tends to enter more easily as well - one big mess. As far as spinning the wheel, hub goes - to check final adjustment on a Q/R (some play when not mounted) I mount the wheel, check for no play and then look for the wheel to rock back and forth a few times before coming to rest - no need to spin it and count revs, just move a bit and let it slowly come to a stop from just the weight of the valve stem.

  12. #12
    cab horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
    just move a bit and let it slowly come to a stop from just the weight of the valve stem.
    Qualification: This may not happen on a properly adjusted hub, if it's poor qualitiy or worn. Don't use this as a symptom of a problem. The play in the wheel is all that matters once it's mounted. Like you said - as loose as you can get the hub off the bike that there isn't any play when it's mounted.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  13. #13
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    AKA 2000 there was a link there, this one-
    http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTR...c=GetTRDoc.pdf
    #2 may answer the question, all the other points do relate however.
    In my work, I deal with bearings in all kinds of systems. Most failures are directly related to lubrication.
    The technology in lubrication is constantly advancing along with bearings themselves. Well, it could be said that the bicycle industry is not up to snuff on what the defense industry has discovered is the best grease to use in nuclear submarine drive components.
    This could be an example. A company I work with rebuilt a grinder spindle with two angular contact bearings at light preload. They used Lubriplate grease. The spindle ran for 5 hours and failed, a $1200 mistake. Yes this a more severe application, though, Campy hubs are angular contact bearings also.
    These quality greases are far better then what can be had at the LBS. The cost, well, thats up to you if you think its worth it.
    From what I understand, part of the cost problem is pumping grease through 10 micron filters along with the exotic bases and oil.
    A word of caution, as with most things chemical that work the best, these greases are toxic, take care not to get these on your hands. The last time I got Exxon Andock on my hands, I could instantly taste it and thats not a good thing. It is these properties that make them work.

    Don

  14. #14
    Mechanic/Tourist
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator View Post
    Qualification: This may not happen on a properly adjusted hub, if it's poor qualitiy or worn. Don't use this as a symptom of a problem. The play in the wheel is all that matters once it's mounted. Like you said - as loose as you can get the hub off the bike that there isn't any play when it's mounted.
    I've seen very few non-pitted hubs of any quality on which that test will not work, and as for "worn" a properly broken in hub has a track on the cone and cup that is far smoother than when new. Wear in my experience does not make a hub perform worse unless it is improperly worn - pitted or uneven.

  15. #15
    coffeeeeee p4nh4ndle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    AKA 2000 there was a link there, this one-
    [url] The last time I got Exxon Andock on my hands, I could instantly taste it and thats not a good thing. It is these properties that make them work.
    It's these properties that make me avoid them.

  16. #16
    cab horn
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    This threads deserves the overthinking award of the year.
    Mes compaingnons cui j'amoie et cui j'aim,... Me di, chanson.

  17. #17
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    Over thinking? Could be. But, knowledge is good. When one quits learning they are dead. If still breathing, well, they are in the way.
    I was rebuilding a machine that had a dozen electrical switches that had oil in them. At the industrial supply they had two types of electrical cleaner, Safe Non Toxic and Extremely Explosive, of course one was better for the job.
    Loctite is another item to keep off your skin, it contains 111 tricloroethane as the thinner, bad stuff.

    Don

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    A word of caution, as with most things chemical that work the best, these greases are toxic, take care not to get these on your hands. The last time I got Exxon Andock on my hands, I could instantly taste it and thats not a good thing. It is these properties that make them work.

    Don
    HDFactoryCertif,

    Thanks for the updated link.

    Unfortunately, there isn't anything in there remotely backing up your assertion. I apologize, I'm not trying to hound you on this issue. But you seem like a guy that is after the truth, as I am, and I'm sure you'd expect any idea that runs contrary to normal experience and industry knowledge to be supportable, at the least, by research or experimental findings. Your assertion that most all greases contain contaminants that actually chemically act on the surface of ball bearings, especially on very low load and low RPM applications such as bicycles, just rings false. I'm very open to being proven wrong, I just need evidence.

    Another thing to consider is the temperature range over which the grease will be exposed. Read this link, especially the paragraph re: temperature ranges of greases:

    http://www2.nynas.com/naph/start/art...=433&Sec_ID=55

    The applications to which you apply grease seem to be for very high RPM, and probably high temperature applications, both of which are not present in bicycling applications.

    Also, there is a great tendency, especially within the weight weenie world of cycling, to equate cost with effectiveness. Often, there is no such link, but marketers use this to sell all sorts of cycling snake oil.

    I would refer you to the writings of Jobst Brandt and Sheldon Brown on bike grease. They claim that plain old automotive grease is as good as the most expensive stuff out there. They don't cite experimental references either, but both are smart guys, and very well respected.

    Finally, if the greases you talk about are toxic, then practically that eliminates them from the conversation entirely. No one wants to risk their health for the potential to preserve an extra 0.0000001 watts.

  19. #19
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    AKA2000 you simply didnt understand #2, partical size vrs bearing damage and the advantage of ultra filtered grease. Very simple, also the special greases are available for multiple speed ranges, not to mention the EP additives that preserve bearings. Its all there.
    Follow any advice that you see fit for your application. All I can do is point out current advancements in industry.
    I didnt advise you to eat the stuff.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    AKA2000 you simply didnt understand #2, partical size vrs bearing damage and the advantage of ultra filtered grease. Very simple, also the special greases are available for multiple speed ranges, not to mention the EP additives that preserve bearings. Its all there.
    Follow any advice that you see fit for your application. All I can do is point out current advancements in industry.
    I didnt advise you to eat the stuff.

    Don
    Don, you don't understand. You need to provide evidence to support what seems to be at best an over-reaching, and at worst an outlandish, statement. #2 says nothing to support your claims. Think about it.

    I'm a degreed engineer, so I think I have the capability to understand scientific and engineering papers. You haven't provided any evidence for me to evaluate.

    And, toxicity doesn't just refer to ingestion. There are many pathways. Think about it.

  21. #21
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    AKA2000. No problem, it is clearly stated in #2 in this document.
    http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTR...c=GetTRDoc.pdf
    If you can argue with that, and the other points in this defense department document, you are going against logic, along with the spending power of the US government.

    Don

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    Don, help out us poor, unedjukated, ilojical enjinirs, and show me how that paper reconciles with your statement "Regular cheap grease has contaminates that will dull the balls and races over time, where with the ultra filtered greases the components remain bright like new."

    I know its like throwing pearls to swine, but we yearn to be ejukated by folks like you.

  23. #23
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    Sheesh! AKA2000, I certainly cant teach you to read. Again #2 clearly explains damage caused by the particles in low quality grease. Damage from the larger particles does dull the high finish of precision bearing components by impacting the metal surfaces, thus causing pitting that appears to the eye as dulling the shiny finish.
    There are many kinds of engineers, Does it really take a Master machinist that has worked in the defense industry for more then 30yrs to explain such a simple thing to you? Even with the documentation you requested, you still dont understand.
    You seem to be getting nasty over such a simple thing. I think we won the cold war without your input.

    Don

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    Whoa! Before you guys don Nomex suits and ride a pursuit in duel at the velodrome, consider this :

    HD in Post #9 : "The grease quality issue is maybe not all that important with most bicycle applications, but I think its good to use with the high end components."

    So be it. HD works with mechanical components that undergo stresses beyond those in bicycles and thinks if certain greases are good in those applications it's good enough for him in his bicycles. No harm in that.

    AK is on an intellectual quest to rationalize HD's advocacy of such greases, see Post #18.

    However, HD has no empirical supporting data to factually prove the effectiveness of such greases at thousands of rpm. in bicycle applications, except to quote academic research and personal experience (paragraph 3, Post #13) in situations far exceeding bicycle applications. His conclusion : see paragraph 2 in this post.

    AK also states : see paragraph 4 and 5, Post #18.
    Whereas HD has written : see Post #9 and paragraph 2, this post.

    We are going around in circles and my head is spinning for lack of high temperature filtered grease.

    So, HD, I can't put on my Nomex pajamas and have a good night's sleep with those brake levers of yours having no hoods. Feel free to PM me if you need a source of repro hoods.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF View Post
    Sheesh! AKA2000, I certainly cant teach you to read. Again #2 clearly explains damage caused by the particles in low quality grease. Damage from the larger particles does dull the high finish of precision bearing components by impacting the metal surfaces, thus causing pitting that appears to the eye as dulling the shiny finish.
    There are many kinds of engineers, Does it really take a Master machinist that has worked in the defense industry for more then 30yrs to explain such a simple thing to you? Even with the documentation you requested, you still dont understand.
    You seem to be getting nasty over such a simple thing. I think we won the cold war without your input.

    Don
    Gee, Don, you had to get all personal, didn't ya? Here I had hope that somebody would learn something from all this, what with you expounding on your "lifelong learning" philosophy, and condescension to teach us poor rubes your valuable experience. All I did was attempt to make you back up your outlandish claims with a little data or research. Well, when you don't have facts or reasoning on your side, I guess you resort to name calling.

    You see, anybody on these forums will be accorded respect if they argue intelligently, and bring a basic appreciation for intellectual honesty to the discussion. No one called you an ignorant blowhard, despite our initial assumptions. But now you've gone and removed all doubt. Such a pity.

    Don, you might want to back off that toxic grease of yours. I think its affected what limited resources you started out with.

    Oh, and thanks for the trivia. Now, should anyone ever ask me who won the Cold War, I'll be able to confidently answer, "Don".

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