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Old 11-20-07, 07:04 PM   #1
bubbagrannygear
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loose spokes, left side, rear wheel

Built my first rear wheel - campagnolo mirage hub, mavic open pro rim, 32 straight 2mm spokes in a 3X.
Wheel true (radial and lateral), dished properly, all spokes on each side roughly equal tension - about 1200 Newtons on drive side and 700 on left. Bike is a Bianchi Eros with a triple chainring.

Problem is after about 150 miles, a couple of the left hand spokes loosen big-time, and the wheel gets out of true. I don't want to use locktight because when building the wheel, I true/dish it a little at a time over several nights, and the stuff will set up (I think). In Schraner's book he mentions DT spoke freeze which can apparently be applied after the wheel is complete. Has anyone used it ? Does it work ? Where can I find it ? Is there something else I should be doing ? - Thanks
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Old 11-20-07, 07:14 PM   #2
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In Schraner's book he mentions DT spoke freeze which can apparently be applied after the wheel is complete. Has anyone used it ? Does it work ? Where can I find it ? Is there something else I should be doing ? - Thanks
Wheels shouldn't need any sort of loctite or "freezing" agent on them.
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Old 11-20-07, 07:20 PM   #3
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Did you use Spokeprep, or somesuch thread prep?
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Old 11-20-07, 07:29 PM   #4
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No threadprep used. What does it do ?
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Old 11-20-07, 07:43 PM   #5
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No threadprep used. What does it do ?
What did you use on the spoke threads...?
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Old 11-20-07, 07:48 PM   #6
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I coated the threads with 3 in 1 oil, and wiped it off. This I've done this on a front wheel and put a thousand miles on it without having to true it.
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Old 11-20-07, 09:06 PM   #7
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I don't know what 1200 Newtons equal in kgf but maybe you can use more tension on both sides.
Blue Locktight works very well on spoke threads, no problems, it's similar to thread prep.

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Old 11-20-07, 09:16 PM   #8
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Built my first rear wheel - campagnolo mirage hub, mavic open pro rim, 32 straight 2mm spokes in a 3X.
Wheel true (radial and lateral), dished properly, all spokes on each side roughly equal tension - about 1200 Newtons on drive side and 700 on left. Bike is a Bianchi Eros with a triple chainring.

Problem is after about 150 miles, a couple of the left hand spokes loosen big-time, and the wheel gets out of true. I don't want to use locktight because when building the wheel, I true/dish it a little at a time over several nights, and the stuff will set up (I think). In Schraner's book he mentions DT spoke freeze which can apparently be applied after the wheel is complete. Has anyone used it ? Does it work ? Where can I find it ? Is there something else I should be doing ? - Thanks
This is an unfortunate combination of parts. The Open Pro is generally not happy with straight gauge spokes. If you make 'em tight enough (especially with a highly dished hub like your Mirage) they are liable to crack the rim around the ferrules.

At this point, spoke freeze would be a good way to go, or else re-build the left side heads-out radial.

Theoretically you could tighten all of the spokes to prevent the lefts from loosening up, but I don't think the Open Pro can take as much tension as would be needed, with straight gauge spokes.

Next time, go for butted spokes...they're not that much more expensive. Spokes are not the place to pinch pennies!

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I coated the threads with 3 in 1 oil, and wiped it off. This I've done this on a front wheel and put a thousand miles on it without having to true it.
3 in One is generally bad stuff, don't use it.

I generally do left rear spokes dry, for just this reason.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuilding

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Old 11-20-07, 10:01 PM   #9
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Although it's less likely with straight guage spokes, it could just be a matter of spoke wind-up. If you aren't religious about removing it while you're building the wheel, some spokes WILL unwind very soon after you start riding. If so, it's a wheel building issue and spoke freeze isn't an answer to that.
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Old 11-21-07, 10:59 AM   #10
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Are double-butted spokes better because they're flexible? I was unaware of this.
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Old 11-21-07, 11:23 AM   #11
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Are double-butted spokes better because they're flexible? I was unaware of this.
Double butted spokes are more elastic, absorb more shock in the center of the spoke and relieve stress from the ends of the spokes.

I hold each spoke with pliars to avoid wind-up.

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Old 11-21-07, 06:27 PM   #12
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Thanks to all who replied. Will use DT spoke freeze ( if I can find some) on this wheel, and make sure to use double butted on the next.

Al - a 10 newtons is equivlent to a kilogram or about 2.2 pounds; so my 1200 newton spoke has about 120 kilograms or 264 pounds of tension. Thanks again to all.
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Old 11-21-07, 06:34 PM   #13
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Although it's less likely with straight guage spokes, it could just be a matter of spoke wind-up. If you aren't religious about removing it while you're building the wheel, some spokes WILL unwind very soon after you start riding. If so, it's a wheel building issue and spoke freeze isn't an answer to that.
+1 on removing spoke wind-up. Turning the nipple beyond and then backing off should become a habit, in my opinion.
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Old 11-21-07, 07:01 PM   #14
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Sheldon - Just read the section of your website on wheelbuilding and am now very intrigued by the left side radial configuratinon. I am somewhat hesitant about trying this due to possible hub breakage but considering that tensions are so much less on the left side it sounds like it could be feasable. Will the spoke tensions be the same for radial as for 3X ? Also do you recommend doing this to hub that has already been laced and ridden or should I wait until I am lacing a new hub ?

Have you (or anyone reading this) ever seen a radially spoked hub break ? Sounds like even if it did happen it wouldn't be catastrophic since the right spokes likely take all the load anyway. Any experience or thoughts on this are welcome.
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Old 11-21-07, 07:13 PM   #15
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I hold each spoke with pliars to avoid wind-up.
Uh.
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Old 11-21-07, 07:27 PM   #16
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I would be wary of relacing the drive side of a rear hub and the front hub if it's already been laced and riddden. The NDS of the rear hub sees much lower tension and if the flange shows no signs of stress or elongated holes, you may spoke it radially.

It's funny, there are articles that state the drive side should be radial and NDS be a cross pattern. Seems to play against one's intuition.
I will have to personally experiment on alternative patterns in future wheels to find out myself.
Very cool patterns exist besides the standard 3x.

Whatever you do, if you go radial, be sure the hub body was forged. Significantly stronger than machined units.
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Old 11-21-07, 07:28 PM   #17
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I hold each spoke with pliars to avoid wind-up.Al
Wow.

Now THAT would add considerably to truing/build time, not to mention potential spoke damage. I would NOT recommend this.

You're kidding, right?
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Old 11-21-07, 07:33 PM   #18
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Wow.

Now THAT would add considerably to truing/build time, not to mention potential spoke damage. I would NOT recommend this.

You're kidding, right?
+2
I think the potential for damage and stress risers to the spokes outweigh pliers to prevent wind up. Unless you're using aluminum or brass jaws.
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Old 11-21-07, 07:39 PM   #19
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+1 on removing spoke wind-up. Turning the nipple beyond and then backing off should become a habit, in my opinion.
Again.

In addition, there's a plastic holder for bladed spokes (Mavic comes to mind) to prevent wind-up.
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Old 11-21-07, 08:41 PM   #20
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WNG - its a campagnolo mirage or veloce level hub. How can I tell if its forged or machined ?
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Old 11-21-07, 09:29 PM   #21
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DT swiss spoke freeze is just red loctite. save yourself some money

The instructions say lube the threads, build the wheel, then drop the spoke freeze between the spoke and nipple. you get about 5 adjustments before it breaks down. If you want it permanent, dont lube the spokes before building and use the spoke freeze.
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Old 11-22-07, 06:18 AM   #22
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WNG - its a campagnolo mirage or veloce level hub. How can I tell if its forged or machined ?
I'm no longer one of the Campy tifosi, therefore can't tell you on that particular model hub. Although Veloce line was further down the pecking order.
Inspect it closely, sometimes it's obvious. You can detect the remants of grooves from the CNC machines.
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Old 11-22-07, 10:50 AM   #23
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Sheldon - Just read the section of your website on wheelbuilding and am now very intrigued by the left side radial configuratinon. I am somewhat hesitant about trying this due to possible hub breakage but considering that tensions are so much less on the left side it sounds like it could be feasable. Will the spoke tensions be the same for radial as for 3X ? Also do you recommend doing this to hub that has already been laced and ridden or should I wait until I am lacing a new hub ?
Half-radial spoking only makes sense for highly-dished wheels. With such wheels, the tension on the left spokes is so low as to present zero risk of flange failure, even on a used hub.

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Have you (or anyone reading this) ever seen a radially spoked hub break ?
Yes, but only fronts.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#half-radial

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Old 11-22-07, 12:14 PM   #24
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DT swiss spoke freeze is just red loctite. save yourself some money

The instructions say lube the threads, build the wheel, then drop the spoke freeze between the spoke and nipple. you get about 5 adjustments before it breaks down. If you want it permanent, dont lube the spokes before building and use the spoke freeze.
Red Loctite is the stuff you use to bolt on truck engine flywheels, not spokes. My recommendation is Wheelsmith Spoke Prep. It helps prevent windup during the build, keeps the nipples from loosening, and permits easy truing for years after.
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Old 11-22-07, 04:22 PM   #25
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Red Loctite is the stuff you use to bolt on truck engine flywheels, not spokes. My recommendation is Wheelsmith Spoke Prep. It helps prevent windup during the build, keeps the nipples from loosening, and permits easy truing for years after.
I can't imagine using red Loctite on spoke nipples. I recently had to remove some cantilever brake bosses that were held in with red Loctite and couldn't believe how hard it was (it was a carbon fork so heat was out of the question). I'd be worried about rounding off the nipple or twisting the spoke so much that it broke if I ever had to remove it.
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