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  1. #1
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    7700 DA brake shoe toe in/ how to doit?

    OK, I just finished a complete rebuild (incl powder coating) of my '98 C'Dale R4000. Came out great, copper powder, new Brooks Swallow saddle, all components torn down and rebuilt. My only problem is the rear brakes. The new koolstop pads seem to almost have a reverse toe-in, they're closer at the back than the front. The front brake was perfect with the new pads, slight forward toe in towards the braking surface, so I know it's not the pads being somehow non-compatible. The Dura Ace brakes have the neat heavy metal housing for the shoe that the pads slide into, but I don't see any way to adjust the pads in relation to the horizontal plane as viewed from above. I tried mashing the lever and loosening the bolts, but it went right back to the old position when I let go. I don't see anything in Barnett's on this, (unless I missed it) and don't think bending the arms is the way to go. Do I try to buy some sort of biased washers to shim the pad mounts? I also considered swapping the mounts to the opposite side, but I'd rather keep them the way they were originally mounted (this wasn't a prob with the original Shimano shoes). Anyone....anyone?

    One other thing...I used Shimano DA cables throughout which I think are pre-lubed with a slippery housing liner. Should I have lubed the cable itelf for the brakes, or is the slippery liner good enough now days? I didn't want to use something that degrades the housing material.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    Only way to adjust toe-in is to bend the caliper arms (or maybe purchase some sort of aftermarket shims).

    I always grease my cables. Shimano does this on the shifter cable housing but I don't think they do on the brake since there are too many different cabling configurations, thus you must do it after cutting the housing.
    Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

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  3. #3
    dcb
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    Before bending up the caliper, can you see if the pads are the problem? Are the pads made asymmetrical? If so can you swap them side to side?

    I assume the geometry hasn't changed, and that the caliper hasn't bent itself. But do some basic measurements (like see if the caliper arms are parallel without the pads).

  4. #4
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    Yeah, checked and the arms are parallel. I think I might just try swapping side with the housings and see how that works. Thanks for the advice, now I guess I oughta grease the cabels in the housings as well...that should be interesting.

    Another wierd note, years ago I used to solder my cable ends. I can't get the Shimano cables to tkae the solder now, even after scuffing with emery cloth, cleaning with alcohol, and hitting with flux. Any thoughts on this? Is it because the cables now are stainless?

  5. #5
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    Duh, it just hit me why I can't just swap them side to side...the pads will then be forcing their way OUT of the housing and only being held by the small set screw when I apply the brakes. Back to the drawing board.

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    dcb
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    Do the old pads sit right?

  7. #7
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    yeah, the stock DAs are fine, and I guess I could just buy a set and leave it at that. After dropping $$ on the KOOL Stops though I wanted to make them work...and the Shimano ones are even pricier. Of course, they might work fine anyway. It's been raining here and I haven't even had her on the road yet to try it out for real.

    Way too much thought into this I suppose. Still bugs me about the solder thing too.

  8. #8
    Senior Member jerrymcdougal's Avatar
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    I asked my LBS the same thing. They said they just bend the arms. I used a crescent wrench with some soft rubber between the jaws of the wrench and the caliper arm. Just tweak it out a bit. It wont break if you do it nice and easy.

  9. #9
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    Huh. I rebuilt my brakes completely when I was doing the build...saw all the tiny bearings and plastic carriers in the articulation parts of the double action...I'd be freaked to try bending them unless I stripped it all down to the bare bones again. Given the time it took to do that I'll probably just live with it, or look for some bias cut washers. I did find a place on the Park site that says most double action brakes like these are not adjustable for toe in. It didn't give any advice on how to achieve it either.

    I hate the thought of taking a bender tool to my dura ace stuff though. Man, with the thought put into designing this stuff (they are fully strippable) you'd think Shimano would have factored this in.

  10. #10
    dcb
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    can't help you on the pads without looking. You sure they don't swap sides?!?


    re cable: degrease the end, maybe a little sand paper, then some flux, and it aught to take a solder.

  11. #11
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    Nope, can't swap...they have that groove for the setscrew in 'em, can't be turned around. If I swap sides then the open end of the metal housing faces away from the direction of wheel travel, encouraging the pad to slide out of the housing.

    no good the solder, tried about 8 times. The solder melts but doesn't adhere, even after aggressive sanding and cleaning, coating in flux, etc... I dunno, maybe the bike mech gods are frowning on me.

  12. #12
    don't try this at home. rm -rf's Avatar
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    You could adjust them by using a file to remove a bit of the pad's braking surface toward one end. Take them off the bike first, you don't want to nick your new paint job.

    If they aren't very noisy now, the pads will wear down parallel to the rims eventually, toed in or not.

    This Park Tool brake adjustment page might help you, too:

    ...flexible and less expensive arms tend to squeal more than stiff calipers of better brakes. It is possible to reduce squeal by having the leading edge of the brake pad strike first. This tends to reduce the back and forth jerking of the arms.

    Some brake caliper arms can be toed. Toeing can be achieved in some cases by bending the caliper arm slightly using the Park Tool BT-3. It is best to use two BT-3 tools at the same time. This will minimize stress on the center pivot. Begin with a slight gap at the back of the pads and test the bike before adding toe. An option to toeing is to file the pads so the leading edge strikes first.
    Last edited by rm -rf; 12-16-07 at 11:44 PM.

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    Only method I've ever heard for toe-in is torqueing the caliper arms with an adjustable wrench or bending tool slipped over the ends of the arm - I always cover the arms with tape or something to protect them from marring.

    Stainless steel requires a specific type of solder and flux - regular lead or plumbing solder won't work. Go to a supply place and get stainless-specific soldering supplies.

  14. #14
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Get brake shoes with a wavey/convex washer:
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  15. #15
    Senior Member poprad's Avatar
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    ginsoaked: Thanks for the soldering tip, never knew stainless takes it's own special stuff to work.

    NoRacer: interesting... maybe they started using that after people had probs with setting up the older type? Mine are the 1st gen dura ace dual-pivots, and have flat washers. Maybe I can retro fit the convex washer to give it that adjustablity. A trip to the LBS seems in order.

  16. #16
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poprad View Post
    ginsoaked: Thanks for the soldering tip, never knew stainless takes it's own special stuff to work.

    NoRacer: interesting... maybe they started using that after people had probs with setting up the older type? Mine are the 1st gen dura ace dual-pivots, and have flat washers. Maybe I can retro fit the convex washer to give it that adjustablity. A trip to the LBS seems in order.
    I think that I've purchased new shoes in holders and they came with the convex washers.
    Last edited by NoRacer; 12-17-07 at 10:54 AM.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

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